Cryogenic does it work?
Former Vendor
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,204
Likes: 6
From: St Marys PA
cryoing has been used in many industries such as stamping houses, Powdered Metal/Tool and Die, and other "repetitive" pressing/striking type work to extend the life of components.
I have read many studies that showed increased life of tooling from these above mentioned industries, but never took part in a study at our facility to the usefulness of it.
The purpose or theory behind the cryo is that ANYTIME you alter machine/alter a metal component, you induces stresses to that material/component. Through doing so, you are giving the part a stress riser, or a head start to a location that a failure could begin. The purpose of cyroing doesn't really make the material any more strong, it basically is used to "relieve" these stress area, through a series of very cold cycles that allow the material to realign its internal makup in a fashion that ultimately relieves its stresses and makes it a more robust piece, that will usually last longer.
Also there is NO harmful effects of doing cyro to a piece, it can only make it better. So worst case, is you wind up with a equal piece, but best case is you wind up with a piece that is better.
That is the 2 cent explination of the process
I have read many studies that showed increased life of tooling from these above mentioned industries, but never took part in a study at our facility to the usefulness of it.
The purpose or theory behind the cryo is that ANYTIME you alter machine/alter a metal component, you induces stresses to that material/component. Through doing so, you are giving the part a stress riser, or a head start to a location that a failure could begin. The purpose of cyroing doesn't really make the material any more strong, it basically is used to "relieve" these stress area, through a series of very cold cycles that allow the material to realign its internal makup in a fashion that ultimately relieves its stresses and makes it a more robust piece, that will usually last longer.
Also there is NO harmful effects of doing cyro to a piece, it can only make it better. So worst case, is you wind up with a equal piece, but best case is you wind up with a piece that is better.
That is the 2 cent explination of the process
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
A bunch of us forum members gathered last nite for dinned, and we were chatting about cryo treating.
Sport Compact Car was running a Nissan Sentra SE-R a few years back at the 24 hours of Nelson Ledges.
They were running cryo treated rotors, they held up so well, that they lasted the entire 24 hours.
I think the hardness issues has more to do with the material in question. Some materials get stronger from the process, others, release tension that might weaken them. Subtle difference, for sure.
In the case of the rotors, they got stronger. They didn't wear. I don't have pics, cause this was 10 years or so ago!
Sport Compact Car was running a Nissan Sentra SE-R a few years back at the 24 hours of Nelson Ledges.
They were running cryo treated rotors, they held up so well, that they lasted the entire 24 hours.
I think the hardness issues has more to do with the material in question. Some materials get stronger from the process, others, release tension that might weaken them. Subtle difference, for sure.
In the case of the rotors, they got stronger. They didn't wear. I don't have pics, cause this was 10 years or so ago!
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,348
Likes: 233
From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
The firearms industry used to make some pretty incredible claims for cryo'd rifle barrels, so I asked a Ph.D.'d metallurgist at work about the process (I'm in aerospace). In a nutshell, he said it does have some benefits for certain aluminum alloys, put does not strenghthen, harden, nor stress relieve the ferrous alloys (i.e. steels and cast irons).
As ski said, it can't hurt anything other than your wallet.
Think about this: the normal stress relieving and hardening processes accomplish their goals by putting energy (in the form of heat) into the metal. Cryo removes heat/energy, in effect stopping all changes while at the lowered temperatures. When the part regains room temp it should be in the exact same state as before the process.
Cryo may work on aluminum because some aluminum alloys will exhibit a phenomena known as aging, and will harden at room temperature, gaining strength. Maybe this is why they respond to cryogenics. Ferrous alloys do not age-harden.
That said, many people swear it helps certain parts (brake rotors being one of them) and if they like it, who am I to argue with their results.
Larry
code5coupe
As ski said, it can't hurt anything other than your wallet.
Think about this: the normal stress relieving and hardening processes accomplish their goals by putting energy (in the form of heat) into the metal. Cryo removes heat/energy, in effect stopping all changes while at the lowered temperatures. When the part regains room temp it should be in the exact same state as before the process.
Cryo may work on aluminum because some aluminum alloys will exhibit a phenomena known as aging, and will harden at room temperature, gaining strength. Maybe this is why they respond to cryogenics. Ferrous alloys do not age-harden.
That said, many people swear it helps certain parts (brake rotors being one of them) and if they like it, who am I to argue with their results.
Larry
code5coupe
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by rocco16
The firearms industry used to make some pretty incredible claims for cryo'd rifle barrels, so I asked a Ph.D.'d metallurgist at work about the process (I'm in aerospace). In a nutshell, he said it does have some benefits for certain aluminum alloys, put does not strenghthen, harden, nor stress relieve the ferrous alloys (i.e. steels and cast irons).
As ski said, it can't hurt anything other than your wallet.
Think about this: the normal stress relieving and hardening processes accomplish their goals by putting energy (in the form of heat) into the metal. Cryo removes heat/energy, in effect stopping all changes while at the lowered temperatures. When the part regains room temp it should be in the exact same state as before the process.
Cryo may work on aluminum because some aluminum alloys will exhibit a phenomena known as aging, and will harden at room temperature, gaining strength. Maybe this is why they respond to cryogenics. Ferrous alloys do not age-harden.
That said, many people swear it helps certain parts (brake rotors being one of them) and if they like it, who am I to argue with their results.
Larry
code5coupe
As ski said, it can't hurt anything other than your wallet.
Think about this: the normal stress relieving and hardening processes accomplish their goals by putting energy (in the form of heat) into the metal. Cryo removes heat/energy, in effect stopping all changes while at the lowered temperatures. When the part regains room temp it should be in the exact same state as before the process.
Cryo may work on aluminum because some aluminum alloys will exhibit a phenomena known as aging, and will harden at room temperature, gaining strength. Maybe this is why they respond to cryogenics. Ferrous alloys do not age-harden.
That said, many people swear it helps certain parts (brake rotors being one of them) and if they like it, who am I to argue with their results.
Larry
code5coupe
I can't argue with emprical data. Eye witness data.
That's my point...
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 1
From: atlanta Georgia
as a metallurgist!
YES IS DOES!
do the ring and pinion! and the casing!
i can go ring and pinion for 150!
let me know. i can tell you more if need be.
Email me asap.
I am soon to be a supporting vendor.
thanks alot your friend
Sean
slimshaby@mindspring.com
YES IS DOES!
do the ring and pinion! and the casing!
i can go ring and pinion for 150!
let me know. i can tell you more if need be.
Email me asap.
I am soon to be a supporting vendor.
thanks alot your friend
Sean
slimshaby@mindspring.com
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 1
From: atlanta Georgia
also for the non believers...
cryo treating any moving part of you engine will resist wear, corrosion and rust!
cryo changes the texture make the metal stronger!
rotors last alot longer. as for miles each rotor is different but i can say it will about double the life of them!
and cryoing the entire engine will add about 30-70k to it... this is just from what people expirence. it is impossible to be exact!
but that is from ym expirence
any one need anything coated?
email me
your friend
Sean
slimshaby@mindspring.com
cryo treating any moving part of you engine will resist wear, corrosion and rust!
cryo changes the texture make the metal stronger!
rotors last alot longer. as for miles each rotor is different but i can say it will about double the life of them!
and cryoing the entire engine will add about 30-70k to it... this is just from what people expirence. it is impossible to be exact!
but that is from ym expirence
any one need anything coated?
email me
your friend
Sean
slimshaby@mindspring.com
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Drifting
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 11
From: Savannah Ga.
Originally Posted by redbullapril23
also for the non believers...
cryo treating any moving part of you engine will resist wear, corrosion and rust!
cryo changes the texture make the metal stronger!
rotors last alot longer. as for miles each rotor is different but i can say it will about double the life of them!
and cryoing the entire engine will add about 30-70k to it... this is just from what people expirence. it is impossible to be exact!
but that is from ym expirence
any one need anything coated?
email me
your friend
Sean
slimshaby@mindspring.com
cryo treating any moving part of you engine will resist wear, corrosion and rust!
cryo changes the texture make the metal stronger!
rotors last alot longer. as for miles each rotor is different but i can say it will about double the life of them!
and cryoing the entire engine will add about 30-70k to it... this is just from what people expirence. it is impossible to be exact!
but that is from ym expirence
any one need anything coated?
email me
your friend
Sean
slimshaby@mindspring.com
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 1
From: atlanta Georgia
it does not keep it from rusting. it resists rust because the material is stronger. what is rust? iron oxide. cryo takes advantage of the extra bonds needed for rust it self to occur. this is not fool proof though because over time and temp changes rust can occur!
also I would recomend cryoing the ring and pinion and pumpkin! and then the bat wing you can powder coat! that would give you a strong long lasting combo!
honestly cryo treating all moving parts would be best but not many people other than most race teams would do this.
it does prolong the life of and keep it stronger the entire life of the metal part!
thanks alot
your friend
Sean
also I would recomend cryoing the ring and pinion and pumpkin! and then the bat wing you can powder coat! that would give you a strong long lasting combo!
honestly cryo treating all moving parts would be best but not many people other than most race teams would do this.
it does prolong the life of and keep it stronger the entire life of the metal part!
thanks alot
your friend
Sean
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 11
From: Savannah Ga.
Originally Posted by redbullapril23
it does not keep it from rusting. it resists rust because the material is stronger. what is rust? iron oxide. cryo takes advantage of the extra bonds needed for rust it self to occur. this is not fool proof though because over time and temp changes rust can occur!
also I would recomend cryoing the ring and pinion and pumpkin! and then the bat wing you can powder coat! that would give you a strong long lasting combo!
honestly cryo treating all moving parts would be best but not many people other than most race teams would do this.
it does prolong the life of and keep it stronger the entire life of the metal part!
thanks alot
your friend
Sean
also I would recomend cryoing the ring and pinion and pumpkin! and then the bat wing you can powder coat! that would give you a strong long lasting combo!
honestly cryo treating all moving parts would be best but not many people other than most race teams would do this.
it does prolong the life of and keep it stronger the entire life of the metal part!
thanks alot
your friend
Sean
what price range for cryoing a complete pumkin?????
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,830
Likes: 1
From: atlanta Georgia
$93 for housing and it must be completely dissasembled.
ring and pinion I have changed for CF members its $138.
was $150!
let me know if you need any coatings!
thanks alot
agian
your friend
Sean
ring and pinion I have changed for CF members its $138.
was $150!
let me know if you need any coatings!
thanks alot
agian
your friend
Sean
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,305
Likes: 11
From: Savannah Ga.
[QUOTE=redbullapril23]$93 for housing and it must be completely dissasembled.
ring and pinion I have changed for CF members its $138.
was $150!
let me know if you need any coatings!
what other parts are in the pumpkin otrher than the ring and pinion?
ring and pinion I have changed for CF members its $138.
was $150!
let me know if you need any coatings!
what other parts are in the pumpkin otrher than the ring and pinion?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,097
Likes: 1
From: Abita Springs LA
I will try to let you know how things are going with my setup in the next few weeks. I run a 6 spd. I shimmed the spider gears super azz tight to help with less breakage, and polished the entire carrier. I cryoed my entire third memeber. I plan on doing some 4-5k side steps on slicks very soon, and can let you know how things go for me.
__________________
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Racer
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
From: Dallas Tx
I'm not a scientific metallurgist, but my company makes iron fittings, so I know a fair amount about iron alloys (cast iron and steel).
All iron and steel are alloys with carbon, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, nickel, silicon, etc. in specific proportions. As the alloys cool from the molten state, they crystallize in particular forms depending on the alloy and cooling rate. Using a microscope, one can see the crystalline structure. To simplify slightly, the alloy and cooling rate determine the crystalline structure, and the crystalline structure ultimately determines the hardness, toughness, brittleness, etc of the part.
After the part is cooled, the crystalline structure can be modified by reheating to a specific temperature, and cooling at a specific rate (annealing, tempering, hardening) The surface can be modified by chemical treatment to modify the structure chemically (case hardening or nitriding (Tufftriding). Finally all alloys evolve their crystalline structure over time even at room temperature. Aluminum alloys do it faster than iron alloys.
Cryotreating accelerates the crystalline evolution of the alloy to the ultimate structure, which as it happens is harder than the original. (The usual technical term in iron alloys is martensite transformation into pearlite) Pearlite is a submicroscopic arrangement of Ferrite (iron) and cementite (iron carbide). The iron carbide gives hardness, and the small grain structure gives toughness. Again, this will happen over long time at room temperature, but cryotreatment accelerates and makes uniform the process. So much for tech talk. It's actually much more complex. Some alloys benefit more than others, and some parts may be adequate without treatment.
The structure can be verified microscopically. This means that cryotreatment has an objective means of measurement. (One could also do strength tests). In other words, it's not just hocus pocus.
Hope this helps in understanding the process.
All iron and steel are alloys with carbon, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, nickel, silicon, etc. in specific proportions. As the alloys cool from the molten state, they crystallize in particular forms depending on the alloy and cooling rate. Using a microscope, one can see the crystalline structure. To simplify slightly, the alloy and cooling rate determine the crystalline structure, and the crystalline structure ultimately determines the hardness, toughness, brittleness, etc of the part.
After the part is cooled, the crystalline structure can be modified by reheating to a specific temperature, and cooling at a specific rate (annealing, tempering, hardening) The surface can be modified by chemical treatment to modify the structure chemically (case hardening or nitriding (Tufftriding). Finally all alloys evolve their crystalline structure over time even at room temperature. Aluminum alloys do it faster than iron alloys.
Cryotreating accelerates the crystalline evolution of the alloy to the ultimate structure, which as it happens is harder than the original. (The usual technical term in iron alloys is martensite transformation into pearlite) Pearlite is a submicroscopic arrangement of Ferrite (iron) and cementite (iron carbide). The iron carbide gives hardness, and the small grain structure gives toughness. Again, this will happen over long time at room temperature, but cryotreatment accelerates and makes uniform the process. So much for tech talk. It's actually much more complex. Some alloys benefit more than others, and some parts may be adequate without treatment.
The structure can be verified microscopically. This means that cryotreatment has an objective means of measurement. (One could also do strength tests). In other words, it's not just hocus pocus.
Hope this helps in understanding the process.
Drifting
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 4
From: Tracy CA
Originally Posted by tkrussell
I'm not a scientific metallurgist, but my company makes iron fittings, so I know a fair amount about iron alloys (cast iron and steel).
All iron and steel are alloys with carbon, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, nickel, silicon, etc. in specific proportions. As the alloys cool from the molten state, they crystallize in particular forms depending on the alloy and cooling rate. Using a microscope, one can see the crystalline structure. To simplify slightly, the alloy and cooling rate determine the crystalline structure, and the crystalline structure ultimately determines the hardness, toughness, brittleness, etc of the part.
After the part is cooled, the crystalline structure can be modified by reheating to a specific temperature, and cooling at a specific rate (annealing, tempering, hardening) The surface can be modified by chemical treatment to modify the structure chemically (case hardening or nitriding (Tufftriding). Finally all alloys evolve their crystalline structure over time even at room temperature. Aluminum alloys do it faster than iron alloys.
Cryotreating accelerates the crystalline evolution of the alloy to the ultimate structure, which as it happens is harder than the original. (The usual technical term in iron alloys is martensite transformation into pearlite) Pearlite is a submicroscopic arrangement of Ferrite (iron) and cementite (iron carbide). The iron carbide gives hardness, and the small grain structure gives toughness. Again, this will happen over long time at room temperature, but cryotreatment accelerates and makes uniform the process. So much for tech talk. It's actually much more complex. Some alloys benefit more than others, and some parts may be adequate without treatment.
The structure can be verified microscopically. This means that cryotreatment has an objective means of measurement. (One could also do strength tests). In other words, it's not just hocus pocus.
Hope this helps in understanding the process.
All iron and steel are alloys with carbon, chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, nickel, silicon, etc. in specific proportions. As the alloys cool from the molten state, they crystallize in particular forms depending on the alloy and cooling rate. Using a microscope, one can see the crystalline structure. To simplify slightly, the alloy and cooling rate determine the crystalline structure, and the crystalline structure ultimately determines the hardness, toughness, brittleness, etc of the part.
After the part is cooled, the crystalline structure can be modified by reheating to a specific temperature, and cooling at a specific rate (annealing, tempering, hardening) The surface can be modified by chemical treatment to modify the structure chemically (case hardening or nitriding (Tufftriding). Finally all alloys evolve their crystalline structure over time even at room temperature. Aluminum alloys do it faster than iron alloys.
Cryotreating accelerates the crystalline evolution of the alloy to the ultimate structure, which as it happens is harder than the original. (The usual technical term in iron alloys is martensite transformation into pearlite) Pearlite is a submicroscopic arrangement of Ferrite (iron) and cementite (iron carbide). The iron carbide gives hardness, and the small grain structure gives toughness. Again, this will happen over long time at room temperature, but cryotreatment accelerates and makes uniform the process. So much for tech talk. It's actually much more complex. Some alloys benefit more than others, and some parts may be adequate without treatment.
The structure can be verified microscopically. This means that cryotreatment has an objective means of measurement. (One could also do strength tests). In other words, it's not just hocus pocus.
Hope this helps in understanding the process.
