New 355 still using oil ..
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara Minnesota
New 355 still using oil ..
I've had this car for 9 years, 8 spent in a shop playing with mods. I'm not a mechanic/technician, but I did study engineering. Over the years you learn to trust some performance mechanics, but most are bs.
So. I have a new 355ci. 23 degree Trick Flow Street Bracket Kit (about 1800 mi.), Hyperteutetic pistons, Low Tension rings from Speedway (Ringset for Ultramax Piston) on the invoice, part#915-2500030.
Tight Fit Headers ZZ-4 coated. FreeFlow exhaust no emmision stuff.
But still using a quart every couple hundred mi. Some opinions center around engine preasure, Neg. or pos. maybe something to do with old EGR. I'm not sure, any ideas?
So. I have a new 355ci. 23 degree Trick Flow Street Bracket Kit (about 1800 mi.), Hyperteutetic pistons, Low Tension rings from Speedway (Ringset for Ultramax Piston) on the invoice, part#915-2500030.
Tight Fit Headers ZZ-4 coated. FreeFlow exhaust no emmision stuff.
But still using a quart every couple hundred mi. Some opinions center around engine preasure, Neg. or pos. maybe something to do with old EGR. I'm not sure, any ideas?
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 90,675
Likes: 304
From: SE NY
Cruise-In II Veteran
I assume you've checked over & under for oil leaks??
What year engine?
How many miles on the engine since rebuild?
Did you use a break in oil?
If no leaks you might check cylinder compression as a 1st step.
What year engine?
How many miles on the engine since rebuild?
Did you use a break in oil?
If no leaks you might check cylinder compression as a 1st step.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara Minnesota
?
Originally Posted by Pete K
Are you running a vacuum pump on the crankcase? I think low tension oil rings require a pump.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,518
Likes: 19
The way I understand them, the pump is belt driven and resembles a factory type smog pump. They put a vacuum on the crankcase to allow the rings to seal properly. I am no expert but am willing to bet a 10 dollar bill that you need to add the pump or swap out the low tension rings for standard tension rings. If you have a Jegs or Summit catalog,you can view the pumps and get an idea what they look like and how they mount.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
It's the low tension rings. They're great for drag racing applications, but due an awful job of controlling oil on a street engine.
They're touted to reduce ring to wall drag thereby eliminating a lot of power loss due to ring drag. Tests have shown the ring drag is the biggest parasitic power loss on an engine.
But (isn't there always a "but") even Scoggins-Dickey recommends dumping the low tension ring set that come on some factory engines in favor of a standard tension setup.
5/64ths top and second single moly and 3/16th standard tension SpeedPro SS50U oil ring set is the way to go for a street engine. They may cost a bit of power (bet you'll never know it), but that's far out-weighed by the good seal and reduced oil consumption they give.
Per inch of bore, N/A, I like .045 for the top ring and .055 for the second.
Just my thoughts.
Jake
They're touted to reduce ring to wall drag thereby eliminating a lot of power loss due to ring drag. Tests have shown the ring drag is the biggest parasitic power loss on an engine.
But (isn't there always a "but") even Scoggins-Dickey recommends dumping the low tension ring set that come on some factory engines in favor of a standard tension setup.
5/64ths top and second single moly and 3/16th standard tension SpeedPro SS50U oil ring set is the way to go for a street engine. They may cost a bit of power (bet you'll never know it), but that's far out-weighed by the good seal and reduced oil consumption they give.
Per inch of bore, N/A, I like .045 for the top ring and .055 for the second.
Just my thoughts.
Jake
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 8,184
Likes: 3
From: Santa Maria, CA
Who did the work?
I did not have the best of luck with speed-pro brand. I chose Child & Albert and filed each one to each cyl bore. Have your builder check the gap of each top and second ring installed in their respective bores. The sets that are supposedly already gapped can be off by quite abit. I've seen it firsthand a bunch of times. No need to skip this important step.
I suspect you will have to pull it all apart and put a finish on the cyl walls again.
Ask Jeff Carroll for recomendation on machinists/engine builders in the SB area. Really nice guy.
He has the alcohol funny car there in town.
www.carrollmotorsports.com
An hour North of you is Foster Race engine service. I hang out with them and they are the cat's ***.
I did not have the best of luck with speed-pro brand. I chose Child & Albert and filed each one to each cyl bore. Have your builder check the gap of each top and second ring installed in their respective bores. The sets that are supposedly already gapped can be off by quite abit. I've seen it firsthand a bunch of times. No need to skip this important step.
I suspect you will have to pull it all apart and put a finish on the cyl walls again.
Ask Jeff Carroll for recomendation on machinists/engine builders in the SB area. Really nice guy.
He has the alcohol funny car there in town.
www.carrollmotorsports.com
An hour North of you is Foster Race engine service. I hang out with them and they are the cat's ***.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,241
Likes: 9
From: Houston TX
can't speak for that exact brand/model, but i've used low tension rings successfully in many engines. (as have manufacturers, since most new cars come with low tension rings.)
basics, do you know if the oil is getting past the rings, or being sucked in through either pcv system or valve guides/seals? the first task should be to determine this.
-michael
basics, do you know if the oil is getting past the rings, or being sucked in through either pcv system or valve guides/seals? the first task should be to determine this.
-michael
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara Minnesota
I hope a vacuum pump will help
Originally Posted by 89 Paul in Cal
Who did the work?
I did not have the best of luck with speed-pro brand. I chose Child & Albert and filed each one to each cyl bore. Have your builder check the gap of each top and second ring installed in their respective bores. The sets that are supposedly already gapped can be off by quite abit. I've seen it firsthand a bunch of times. No need to skip this important step.
I suspect you will have to pull it all apart and put a finish on the cyl walls again.
Ask Jeff Carroll for recomendation on machinists/engine builders in the SB area. Really nice guy.
He has the alcohol funny car there in town.
www.carrollmotorsports.com
An hour North of you is Foster Race engine service. I hang out with them and they are the cat's ***.
I did not have the best of luck with speed-pro brand. I chose Child & Albert and filed each one to each cyl bore. Have your builder check the gap of each top and second ring installed in their respective bores. The sets that are supposedly already gapped can be off by quite abit. I've seen it firsthand a bunch of times. No need to skip this important step.
I suspect you will have to pull it all apart and put a finish on the cyl walls again.
Ask Jeff Carroll for recomendation on machinists/engine builders in the SB area. Really nice guy.
He has the alcohol funny car there in town.
www.carrollmotorsports.com
An hour North of you is Foster Race engine service. I hang out with them and they are the cat's ***.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara Minnesota
Originally Posted by MSR
can't speak for that exact brand/model, but i've used low tension rings successfully in many engines. (as have manufacturers, since most new cars come with low tension rings.)
basics, do you know if the oil is getting past the rings, or being sucked in through either pcv system or valve guides/seals? the first task should be to determine this.
-michael
basics, do you know if the oil is getting past the rings, or being sucked in through either pcv system or valve guides/seals? the first task should be to determine this.
-michael
I'm not sure where the oil is getting past, but yes, I believe it's the pcv system. So I disconnected the pcv. on one side today, hard to tell, so much holiday traffic, everywhere I went some SUV. was lost in front of me. I'll try some 1/4 mi. runs when everyone else is sleeping after 2much Turkey!
Team Owner
Joined: Jan 2000
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From: PA
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#70SM2
Your problem sounds exactly like what we are seeing here with a 406 we just put in a '69 Camero.
By any chance are you using fel-pro head gaskets?
Your problem sounds exactly like what we are seeing here with a 406 we just put in a '69 Camero.
By any chance are you using fel-pro head gaskets?
Last edited by Justin Gillott; Nov 24, 2004 at 10:54 PM.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara Minnesota
Originally Posted by Justin Gillott
#70SM2
Your problem sounds exactly like what we are seeing here with a 406 we just put in a '69 Camero.
By any chance are you using fel-pro head gaskets?
Your problem sounds exactly like what we are seeing here with a 406 we just put in a '69 Camero.
By any chance are you using fel-pro head gaskets?
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
Likes: 33
From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by #70SM2
Holy$ht .. the vacuum pump is $400 at Summit!
RACE ON!!!
Le Mans Master
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 9,715
Likes: 27
From: Kempner Texas
The main culprit is the oil ring package.
Like having too many cooks in the kitchen, you'll get all sorts of opinions and recommendations.
So here's mine:
After you've done all you can do (and spent lots of $$) and still don't get the results you're looking for, swap the ring package.
First verify the wall finish the shop used then, if compatible, you can change to SpeedPro rings with the block still in the car. Opt for the +.005 version and custom gap them for the bore they'll be installed in.
Changing rings pretty simple once the oil pan and heads are removed.
Probably around a $150 or so for new rings and gaskets.
Jake
Like having too many cooks in the kitchen, you'll get all sorts of opinions and recommendations.
So here's mine:
After you've done all you can do (and spent lots of $$) and still don't get the results you're looking for, swap the ring package.
First verify the wall finish the shop used then, if compatible, you can change to SpeedPro rings with the block still in the car. Opt for the +.005 version and custom gap them for the bore they'll be installed in.
Changing rings pretty simple once the oil pan and heads are removed.
Probably around a $150 or so for new rings and gaskets.
Jake
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
From: Santa Barbara Minnesota
too many cooks in the kitchen
Originally Posted by JAKE
The main culprit is the oil ring package.
Like having too many cooks in the kitchen, you'll get all sorts of opinions and recommendations.
So here's mine:
After you've done all you can do (and spent lots of $$) and still don't get the results you're looking for, swap the ring package.
First verify the wall finish the shop used then, if compatible, you can change to SpeedPro rings with the block still in the car. Opt for the +.005 version and custom gap them for the bore they'll be installed in.
Changing rings pretty simple once the oil pan and heads are removed.
Probably around a $150 or so for new rings and gaskets.
Jake
Like having too many cooks in the kitchen, you'll get all sorts of opinions and recommendations.
So here's mine:
After you've done all you can do (and spent lots of $$) and still don't get the results you're looking for, swap the ring package.
First verify the wall finish the shop used then, if compatible, you can change to SpeedPro rings with the block still in the car. Opt for the +.005 version and custom gap them for the bore they'll be installed in.
Changing rings pretty simple once the oil pan and heads are removed.
Probably around a $150 or so for new rings and gaskets.
Jake
So you think, if I change out the rings they can be installed without honing the cylinder walls? Still less than 2k.mi. on motor. But has been run pretty/real hard.
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,518
Likes: 19
If the motor was hone w/torque plates you can swap rings. Check with the ring manufacturer regarding the recommeded finish(stone grit). If the new rings need the same finish, no problem. If they are different hone for sure. That said, I would at least run a bottle brush hone thru the cylinders for a touch up (if it were my motor).
Racer
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: Midland Texas
Find out who the machine shop was. Ask if the block was torque plated, if not, there is your problem. Been thru this... Good Luck...
ps: I do this for a living and have done many many motors before torque plating was used as a norm. You could bore and hone with your eyes closed and make them seal. I bought my 88 and had the motor out 3 times and all the way down trying to get it to seal, wasnt happening, till we torque plated...
ps: I do this for a living and have done many many motors before torque plating was used as a norm. You could bore and hone with your eyes closed and make them seal. I bought my 88 and had the motor out 3 times and all the way down trying to get it to seal, wasnt happening, till we torque plated...