When I first began driving in the late 60's it was all about HP. How fast you could come off the red light. The big blocks could really make power, but the brakes in most cars were never equal to the power. I always envied my friends who had vettes, they were the first American production cars that had it all. I knew one day I would own one.

So I finally got my first vette 10 years ago, and still have that one now, albeit with a few mods. About 5 years ago I went to an AutoCross with a mechanic & racer friend. He was an accomplished racer running a Subaru Impreza. He whipped me pretty good. One thing you learn real fast with AX., it ain't all about HP., but torque is good.

There's a lot to learn by watching the really fast accomplished drivers, but sometimes there is even more to learn by watching the novice drivers. First they tend to brake to late going in to corners, not knowing the limitations of their car. The slaloms are really fun, overcorrecting on the 1st. one and fishtailing back and forth through the next. But the real scary part is when you realize that when the day is done, you have to go out & drive with these folks on the road, in the traffic.

I wish there was some form of AX. required for every driver, but especially the new young drivers, as the new cars are becoming so powerful and fast. There is so much more to going fast than just having a fast car. As I learned in a 2001 Time Trial, when I lost my brakes at 104mph. and went sideways into the desert. Something to checkout on the C4's, there was corrosion on the steel brake line at the antilock unit, and the brakes completely failed, instantly!

So that being said, there is a lot to be learned from AX. not just driving but also tech/ing your car. So if your kid wants his or her first vette, take em' to an AutoCross before you turn em' loose.

 

HP = Torque * RPM / 5250

For any given RPM more torque = more HP, so actually it is all about horsepower.

Aside from that I do agree with you, the "skills" required to get a driver's license in this country are a joke. I bought my Vette when I was 19 and I really had no business owning it. One of my friends had driven sports cars since day one and he always tossed the car around turns and such and just generally drove like a retard. I was smart enough to realize that I wasn't qualified to drive this car so I left the ASR on and drove it in a civilized manner. The very first day I drove this car to work I would have tossed it off the on-ramp had I not had the traction control on!

Gradually I got a little more comfortable with the car and started turning the ASR off. Now, 4 years later the ASR is the first thing that gets turned off. I've learned how the car reacts and know what to expect. If the ASR were to kick on it would get me in more because it would turn my natural correction into an over correction. As I've modded the car for more and more horsepower it's gotten more and more twitchy to drive to the point that I can make the rear end slide around at will. Playing with this has taught me how to instictively react when something happens that I'm NOT expecting it to do. I've been extremely lucky several times, but each time something "goes wrong" I've learned from it and become a better driver.

When I went to an informal autocross I was able to hang with everybody else. I didn't once loose control of the car and my times were average.

One of these days when I hit the lottery I'm going to just pave me a really big parking lot and buy a bunch of traffic cones. Running an autocross is insane fun and it really does make you a better driver.

 

I agree, that's why it's also called "Driver's Education", and not just for insurance purposes!

 

As a member of a Corvette Club (CCDV) I have always preached that if you really want to know your skills and how your car handles take it to an Auto Cross, at least once. You will find out just how quick you and car can react in a controlled enviroment. I'm a drag racer at heart but it is fun to let the backend hang out on the corners.

 

I agree with the driving course for new drivers.

WHen I got out of college and started working for Schlumberger years ago, they sent us to a week long driving school in Oklahoma.

It was amazing how poorly the people did on the skid pad, when they would from the rear of the car with controls induce a tail spin.

It was also funny how all the people that lived up in the northern part of the country girls and guys, were able to easy correct the car to be able to save it from spinning out, were 99% of the people from down south, where they rarely drive on bad roads - nearly all had a hard time with correcting or would WAY over correct.

The one time we were suppose to let it spin out and I had a hard time doing it. In response the guy would make me take my hands off the wheel when he induced the spin so I could experience what it was like to spin 360* a few times. The first time I instinctively corrected it, when I wasn't suppose to. He automatically said, "You live up North don't you?" I said Yep, Wonderful PA, where we rarely have sunshine.

 

for any given RPM more torque=more HP, so actually it is all about horsepower

Dear Nathan, this is where I have to differ with you. Or as the racers on this forum like to say "The Track Don't Lie"

Although I'm unable to post these results, you can view them by going to the SDR. (San Diego Region) website: http://www.sdr-scca.com/solo2/inform...irstEvent.html
http://www.sdr-scca.com/solo2/results/ : Check Results for 5/23/04 .. I'm Christian Andersen "707" .. PAX & X. Classes.

This May event was when my motor was still under development, and I had a number of problems, But .. I was making max. 257rwhp. and 384ft.lbs.Torque. Thats at least 100hp. less than the Z06, and about 25 ft.lbs. more Torque than the Z06.

Now to put things into perspective, SDR. has some very accomplished racers, not a bunch of novices. An example is Gary Thomason, this years National Champ & 7 time National Solo champ and 9 time ProSolo Champion. Lesley Cohen, this years SSL National Champ. Just to give you an idea of the level of competition in SDR.
If you look at the results for SS, 11 - Z06's, the fastest time was: 54.598, I ran PAX that day and my best was: 54.258, I also ran X where my best was: 53.907

Now these are not rookie drivers, so please explain how my low HP.- high torque 17 year old C4 beat every Z06 out there, accept Gary & Lesley's Z06's, And got close to some of the fastest racers in the country. "Torque Rules"

 

You didn't listen to what I said. Torque and horsepower are mathematically intertwined. For any given RPM you cannot make more torque without making more horsepower.

The point you're making is that peak numbers don't mean squat and you're absolutely right. A car that only makes 100 pounds of torque at 3000 RPM's makes less horsepower at 3000 RPM's than does a car that makes 300 pounds of torque the same RPM.

So the argument that "torque is better than horsepower" is really meaningless because torque IS horsepower and horsepower IS torque. You just have to look at the whole picture, not just the peak numbers.

 

I whole-heartedly wit hthe value of autox. If I can swing it, my kids will drive on a track before they drive on public roads. I still remember the first thing that I learned at my first autox: "damn I've got a lot to learn!"

 

You know I live in Santa Barbara, CA, so I race in the LA. & SD. area. One of the big things here is the street racing scene AKA: "The Fast & Furious" The Street Racing Scene is Real ..

Problem is, people are getting killed. The worst part is, it's usually the poor innocent guy that's coming home from work and gets hit by some kid in a Turbo/Rice Burner .. I do a lot of AX. here in So.Cal. area. CSCC (California Sports Car Club) So on any given Sunday, you have this Fast & Furious group. But it's great .. in a controlled environment. These guys really develop their cars! just like the movie .. But one thing I have observed, and video/taped .. when these all/wheel monsters stand on the brakes coming into a corner, the rear wheels lift off the ground .. believe me, I have miles of video .. I've never seen a Vette lift the rear wheels off the ground coming in a corner. And you know what I've learned in all my years fooling around with racecars. The Brakes are the most important part of the the car!

 

To really experience what a car can do, you guys should sign up for one of the numerous High Performance Driver Education (HPDE) events put on by the various BMW, Porsche, Audi, Viper, etc car clubs. These are weekend events with the drivers grouped by skill level. The Novice, Beginner, and Intermediate groups have in-car instructors, Advanced do not (although some clubs do require the Advanced students take an Instructor on a check-ride before being turned loose). The weekend includes classroom time as well as ample track time (4 sessions/day, 15-25 minutes per session). The cost is generally in the $250 - $300 per driver range, depending on what track you're at.

If you're uncomfortable with driving your car (or having your son or daughter drive you car) until you see what it's like, many of the clubs offer a "ride-along" program. For $25 for the weekend, you get to ride along with various instructors and sit in on the classroom sessions. Not only do you get to experience what it feels like to be on a track, but it's an opportunity to ride in multiple types of cars.

 

I agree! Auto-x definitly does acquaint you a lot better with your car and its/your capabilities. You know how many people in a RWD car will stand on the brakes when the rear gets loose!
I can now pedal out, if not somewhat control and end quickly a very lose and fast rear end. Where as my first time auto-x'ing I spun a very non-intended 360. Oops...

 

You know what Collin told me at my first AX's ..If you don't hit some cones & spin a few times : your not goin' Fast!! Some of the most fun I've had is doin' a 360 and living to tell about it!

 

Hahaha, excellent!
Thats what the local vette guy in my club said to me, he said if you aren't sliding, you aren't pushing it hard enough. (Now I just need to back it off)

We had a nice S-turn coming out of a 170* hairpin over the finish, the SO's mom was with it. Spun it through the finish cones, didn't hit a single one, nor did I really mean to, but man, that was fun!!!! (And she didn't even hate me after it!)

P.S. I pm'ed about shocks...

 

I've run two informal autocross events. They were both at days where the track was rented and they just set up an autox on the parking lot. The first time I ever ran one I had ET streets on the back. In retrospect it was a retarded thing to do, it would have been alright had I even bothered to put more than drag pressure in the tires. At 10 PSI on wrinkle wall slicks the rear just really isn't set up for handling. Honestly I don't know how I didn't roll the tires off the rims.

Young and stupid I guess, the sad part though is that since this wasn't any kind of really officially sanctioned event, nobody stopped me.

The next time I ever ran one I had my real tires on the car and it coordinated much better. I had a blast and got my first real taste of understeer. In a car that is so twitchy for oversteer I had never actually tried to 90+ degree turns at speed. That's when the rock hard tires just go skipping across the pavement and you just go in whatever direction you were headed before. No problem, just learn and adjust, set up for that turn at a little different angle and at a slightly lower speed next lap.

Really it's the most fun I've ever had in my car.

 

Man that ain't no lie!!! I was raised in San Antonio Texas and I have to say that in the rarity that they experience poor road conditions... they have no idea what to do. I now live in Missouri and you'd think that most people here would know better, but they don't. I counted more accidents involving SUV's in our last blast than any other kind of vehicle on the road. I had my vette out it in and never slid once!!

I agree that ALL people should learn how to drive an AutoX to better inform them of their abilities and awareness on everyday roads... as well as the 'driver's education' programs and such.

 

It'd be great if all drivers really did have to learn basic emergency car control skills. But sometimes I'd settle for just having them pass an IQ and common sense test! I missed my last chance to auto-X until spring, but I'm not complaining since it was for a wonderful personal experience. Anyhow, I'm REALLY looking forward to doing it at the first available opportunity in early spring!

 

The grave miscalculation that all these 'tards make is that all the 4wd in the world doesn't help you stop any better. You've got to plan every move about a mile in advance. I enjoy driving my vette in the snow and ice, it's fun. What worries me is not that I'll lose control or get stuck, it's that I'll get hit by somebody in an SUV who doesn't respect the weather.

 

I can't wait to do this, my 15 yr old girl is soon to start driver ed. I told her we will be going to Summit Point Raceway for some REAL driver ed. If she ever has to make an abrupt move to avoid an accident, she needs to be able to settle the car before causing one.

We really are looking forward to doing this, I'll be in the vette, her in the 1990 awd bmw we kept around for her. Of course the mom hears "blah blah Raceway" and is .

It's such a win win situation I don't know why more people don't do it. You and your kid will be much better drivers, you can have some fun competition with them AND not seem so much like a stick in the mud when it comes to cautioning them about driving. They will take you more seriously.

 

It's funny my dad has no use for drag racing at all. He's always like "you're gonna break something...." Never mind that to date I haven't spent as much drag racing as he's spent on golf in a week....

Anywho after I did the autocross last year I was telling him about how much fun that was and he actually agreed that it seemed like it would be fun. Who is this guy and what did he do with my father?

 

Autocrossing is parking lot avoidance driving that should, I agree with you, be taught in every drivers ed class.

Where you really learn at, and is more fun, is road course racing.

You can definitely take those skills out to the street.