Just how bullet proof are C4's?????
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,524
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From: Hinckley Ohio
Just how bullet proof are C4's?????
Seems the phrase "bullet proof" was used over & over by the media to describe the ZF6, rearends, & the drivetrain in general when our cars were new....
Now I keep seeing posts about ZF6 breakages, differential breakages, crank, bearing breakage, burned clutches......What ever happened to Bullet-proof..
My LT4 has "top-end" work and with the long tubes going on, ought to be 380rwhp........problem now is I think I am afraid to use it.....
I originally figured street tires would protect the drive train & clutch.....
What do you guys think??????? Can I use my power and not break???
Should I consider drag radials or do I need to beef everything in the drive train & bottom end first???
What is my weak link???
Now I keep seeing posts about ZF6 breakages, differential breakages, crank, bearing breakage, burned clutches......What ever happened to Bullet-proof..
My LT4 has "top-end" work and with the long tubes going on, ought to be 380rwhp........problem now is I think I am afraid to use it.....
I originally figured street tires would protect the drive train & clutch.....
What do you guys think??????? Can I use my power and not break???
Should I consider drag radials or do I need to beef everything in the drive train & bottom end first???
What is my weak link???
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Where are you reading about ZF6's breaking? Don't confuse a stiff shift because of a tranny breaking. Also, many of the ZF6s are now hitting 120k+ miles, so things will wear. A nice oil change in a ZF will usually restore the shifting. Also, there are problems coming out GMs *** related to bad hydraulics.
The D44s... you know who IS breaking them? People throwing 650hp through them, that's who. and I know of only one on the forum in recent weeks.
Cranks? bearings? Some of this can be attributed to poor maintenance, or the aforementioned 650hp. Head gaskets, thats a different story
Clutches have always been a weak spot with the ZF6... and what is making it worse, many cars are now hitting the miles required for not only replacement #1, but #2 and even #3.
As for your power and can you use it? The only thing you will break is your wallet if you get busted by the man.
I am on this forum as much as anyone, and I don't see any of these as being trends to be worried about.
The D44s... you know who IS breaking them? People throwing 650hp through them, that's who. and I know of only one on the forum in recent weeks.
Cranks? bearings? Some of this can be attributed to poor maintenance, or the aforementioned 650hp. Head gaskets, thats a different story
Clutches have always been a weak spot with the ZF6... and what is making it worse, many cars are now hitting the miles required for not only replacement #1, but #2 and even #3.
As for your power and can you use it? The only thing you will break is your wallet if you get busted by the man.
I am on this forum as much as anyone, and I don't see any of these as being trends to be worried about.
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 17,298
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From: The Top of Utah
Originally Posted by bogus
I am on this forum as much as anyone, and I don't see any of these as being trends to be worried about.
RACE ON!!!
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,524
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From: Hinckley Ohio
Originally Posted by bogus
I am on this forum as much as anyone, and I don't see any of these as being trends to be worried about.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...4&page=1&pp=20
Seems there have be at least several with motors, trannys, etc..
People going to strokers after motor problem........maybe I am just overreacting to a few reports, but I am pretty nervous...
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 980
Likes: 2
From: Chandler AZ
I guess it has to do with so many factors
If you take care of your car, it lasts a LONG time. My 1990, before it was wrecked, had 130,000 miles on it. It had tons of life left in it. It didn't leak, use oil, clunk, or vibrate. It got oil changed on schedule or darn close to it along with tune-ups. It had repairs done but nothing major to the drivetrain. It drag raced and was driven hard and sometimes fast. The most expensive thing it had done were the seat covers. I think the main thing it had going for it was a stock L98. The intake was a great govenor. The lack of a lot of HP saved the tranny and rear end. The care in cleaning, waxing and detailing, kept the interior in great shape.
I think you get out what you put in to it. You build a racer and race it you break stuff. You drive a stocker and drive carefully, you go slower but last longer.
I think you get out what you put in to it. You build a racer and race it you break stuff. You drive a stocker and drive carefully, you go slower but last longer.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by LT4BUD
Blowed up motor??
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...4&page=1&pp=20
Seems there have be at least several with motors, trannys, etc..
People going to strokers after motor problem........maybe I am just overreacting to a few reports, but I am pretty nervous...
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...4&page=1&pp=20
Seems there have be at least several with motors, trannys, etc..
People going to strokers after motor problem........maybe I am just overreacting to a few reports, but I am pretty nervous...
The blowed up motor?
Head gaskets, thats a different story
The L98 isn't as stout as the LTx series of motors. They have head gasket, intake manifold (worse then usual) and valve guide problems.
My 1992 has just turned 131k miles, and still runs pretty good. Sure, it has some oil leaks, and it could use some TLC, but I will do those things (rebuild) before it blows up.
A stock LT1 should go between 150k~200k miles before it blows. An L98? That's debatable. Bastet44's car has such a suspect history, I don't know what is going on with it. Read that thread, it will piece together what I do know....
I think you're over reacting... And CFI-EFI has hit the nail - these cars are getting OLD!!!
Instructor
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
From: Austin, TX
I don't want to add to your concern, but here is part of my story:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=216405
It gets worse after that, but that would be due to the quality of the rebuild.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=216405
It gets worse after that, but that would be due to the quality of the rebuild.
Last edited by Charles Klein; Jan 13, 2005 at 04:23 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,490
Likes: 2
From: Oviedo FL
Well my rebuild was due to too much wear and tear on a road course. It would have held up fine if I had installed the pan/accusump earlier. The problem was too many 1g high speed corners that burned up some bearings. These cars can take some abuse but I suggest thinking about how you are going to use the car and plan accordingly.
If you just drive it around the street with some spirited driving I wouldn't worry about anything. If you are going to do a lot of drag racing you might want to consider beefing up the drive-line, rear, etc. And if you are going to road race I suggest the Canton pan, and as an extra precaution the accusump.
Mike
If you just drive it around the street with some spirited driving I wouldn't worry about anything. If you are going to do a lot of drag racing you might want to consider beefing up the drive-line, rear, etc. And if you are going to road race I suggest the Canton pan, and as an extra precaution the accusump.
Mike
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: DrunkDefender
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St. Jude Donor '07-'10
Guys, after 15 to 20 years you're going to see more issues on these cars. Heat cycles, time, and galvanic corrosion add up after a while. The later L98s are some of the best SBC ever built, period. Some of the early LT1s had issues but nothing too major. All LT1/4 have the opti and intake issues. I work at a dealership and I get all the vettes. I get far less major issues with the C4s as I do the C5. In all fairness I see 10 times the C5s though and there is no shortage of electrical gremlins on a C5.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,270
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From: Seattle Area WA
I wouldn't worry.
A) D44, to break a D44 you need the aforementioned power and then you need to kung-fu launch it, dry hooking on a 3k RPM launch. Ok, well I am sure if you dry-hooked enough on slicks with your power you could eventually do something, but halfshafts would go first.
2)ZF6, proper maitenance, not with your power. Improper clutchless shifting and missed shifts will kill it, yeah, but that will happen to any normal manual slush box.
3)Street tires, they will be your weak link here. I have heard DR are OK, but I think that really depends on how you use it. Are you gonna be dragging this, or streeting. I don't see how you could find a street that has the grip of a well prepped track so I really think you should be fine. Besides, performance always comes at a price?
To be honest, I would assume you are going to be doing a lot of burnouts, cause well, they are just so damned fun, so the parts I would actually think would go first are the wheel bearings. Now if you do you own labor, you are out 300$ for the rear pair with lifetime warranty, no big deal!
Go drive the crap out of it!
A) D44, to break a D44 you need the aforementioned power and then you need to kung-fu launch it, dry hooking on a 3k RPM launch. Ok, well I am sure if you dry-hooked enough on slicks with your power you could eventually do something, but halfshafts would go first.
2)ZF6, proper maitenance, not with your power. Improper clutchless shifting and missed shifts will kill it, yeah, but that will happen to any normal manual slush box.
3)Street tires, they will be your weak link here. I have heard DR are OK, but I think that really depends on how you use it. Are you gonna be dragging this, or streeting. I don't see how you could find a street that has the grip of a well prepped track so I really think you should be fine. Besides, performance always comes at a price?
To be honest, I would assume you are going to be doing a lot of burnouts, cause well, they are just so damned fun, so the parts I would actually think would go first are the wheel bearings. Now if you do you own labor, you are out 300$ for the rear pair with lifetime warranty, no big deal!
Go drive the crap out of it!
Last edited by USAsOnlyWay; Jan 13, 2005 at 04:50 PM.
Thread Starter
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,524
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From: Hinckley Ohio
Originally Posted by USAsOnlyWay
Are you gonna be dragging this, or streeting. I don't see how you could find a street that has the grip of a well prepped track so I really think you should be fine.
So I guess the strip wasn't all that well prepped....or my driving...
Anyhow mostly street car, occasional "fun" on the road and rare trip to the strip......
Just worried about the power breaking "things".....everything seems to be in good shape...car only has about 32k miles...mostly highway...
Race Director
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Everyday you must choose between the pain of discipline and the pain of regret. Fredericktown, OH
Bud, from all I read before I bought my car, the D44 and ZF are very strong and will (should) be more than capable of handling the power you are making.
The clutch is a wearable item that will need replaced at one time or another anyway. And other items like u-joints are a gamble if you hit it enough with stock LT-4 power.
When I was racing my dad always told me, if you do this long enough you will break parts, just keep a little cash aside so you can get back out as soon as you want. That's kind of the approach I am taking with the vette too.
The clutch is a wearable item that will need replaced at one time or another anyway. And other items like u-joints are a gamble if you hit it enough with stock LT-4 power.
When I was racing my dad always told me, if you do this long enough you will break parts, just keep a little cash aside so you can get back out as soon as you want. That's kind of the approach I am taking with the vette too.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 5,270
Likes: 3
From: Seattle Area WA
Originally Posted by LT-4 CE
When I was racing my dad always told me, if you do this long enough you will break parts, just keep a little cash aside so you can get back out as soon as you want. That's kind of the approach I am taking with the vette too.
Speaking of which, when will you post the first burnout vid?
Elite Torch Red Member
Joined: Sep 1999
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From: Exit 89 GSP,Lakewood,NJ The Land Of Mojo
Cental/South NJ Events Coordinator
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07
Without reading everyone's replies, after 128,000 miles of hard launches, burnouts, jumps,doughnuts, powershifting,snow and ice driving, I'd say they are pretty damn tough.
Just look at the videos I post, if that doesn't say a lot for the C4 and the LT1 I don't know what does.
Just look at the videos I post, if that doesn't say a lot for the C4 and the LT1 I don't know what does.
Pro
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 682
Likes: 1
From: Annapolis MD
are you serious? the 700R4 in my stock 87 has lived up beyond my expectations in an automatic. 40k in HARD miles it still shifts just as hard but 1st to 2nd slips maybe 1 in 20 times now so it is due for a rebuild soon. thats 40k miles of manual shifting up and down. i drive this car like i stole it and pushing nearly 400 rwtq i'm sure i stress this car more than many here. only thing i did was change over to valvoline synthetic ATF and run a big cooler. still on stock stall and i pull 1.81 60' times pretty consistant.
bullet proof? i think so. even the L98's are strong. listen to my motor idling all you here is injectors at 72k in miles. you run good stuff it shouldn't break. only things that have broke is 1 fuel pump and 2 alternators and now the MAF relays.
even D36's can take some power let alone D44's. run mid 10's launch at 5000 rpm on slicks then worry about it.
guess you never heard about the 4L60E horror stories with LT and LS1's?!?! i know numerious of Fbody guys that toasted them on stock setups many times! 94-95 LT1 Fbody 4L60E's won't even shift from 1st to 2nd at WOT with out reprogramming. not sure about the vettes as i'm in the worlds largest 4th Gen Fbody club so i hear about the horror stories of the auto's in the Fbody's.
bullet proof? i think so. even the L98's are strong. listen to my motor idling all you here is injectors at 72k in miles. you run good stuff it shouldn't break. only things that have broke is 1 fuel pump and 2 alternators and now the MAF relays.
even D36's can take some power let alone D44's. run mid 10's launch at 5000 rpm on slicks then worry about it.
guess you never heard about the 4L60E horror stories with LT and LS1's?!?! i know numerious of Fbody guys that toasted them on stock setups many times! 94-95 LT1 Fbody 4L60E's won't even shift from 1st to 2nd at WOT with out reprogramming. not sure about the vettes as i'm in the worlds largest 4th Gen Fbody club so i hear about the horror stories of the auto's in the Fbody's.
Originally Posted by bogus
Let's review - The 700R4 is a POS - that's what you are reading about.
The blowed up motor?
My own comment in my reply.
The L98 isn't as stout as the LTx series of motors. They have head gasket, intake manifold (worse then usual) and valve guide problems.
My 1992 has just turned 131k miles, and still runs pretty good. Sure, it has some oil leaks, and it could use some TLC, but I will do those things (rebuild) before it blows up.
A stock LT1 should go between 150k~200k miles before it blows. An L98? That's debatable. Bastet44's car has such a suspect history, I don't know what is going on with it. Read that thread, it will piece together what I do know....
I think you're over reacting... And CFI-EFI has hit the nail - these cars are getting OLD!!!
The blowed up motor?
My own comment in my reply.
The L98 isn't as stout as the LTx series of motors. They have head gasket, intake manifold (worse then usual) and valve guide problems.
My 1992 has just turned 131k miles, and still runs pretty good. Sure, it has some oil leaks, and it could use some TLC, but I will do those things (rebuild) before it blows up.
A stock LT1 should go between 150k~200k miles before it blows. An L98? That's debatable. Bastet44's car has such a suspect history, I don't know what is going on with it. Read that thread, it will piece together what I do know....
I think you're over reacting... And CFI-EFI has hit the nail - these cars are getting OLD!!!
Last edited by Mad-Mic; Jan 13, 2005 at 11:52 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 40,156
Likes: 45
From: San Pedro CA
Originally Posted by Mad-Mic
are you serious? the 700R4 in my stock 87 has lived up beyond my expectations in an automatic. 40k in HARD miles it still shifts just as hard but 1st to 2nd slips maybe 1 in 20 times now so it is due for a rebuild soon. thats 40k miles of manual shifting up and down. i drive this car like i stole it and pushing nearly 400 rwtq i'm sure i stress this car more than many here. only thing i did was change over to valvoline synthetic ATF and run a big cooler. still on stock stall and i pull 1.81 60' times pretty consistant.
bullet proof? i think so. even the L98's are strong. listen to my motor idling all you here is injectors at 72k in miles. you run good stuff it shouldn't break. only things that have broke is 1 fuel pump and 2 alternators and now the MAF relays.
even D36's can take some power let alone D44's. run mid 10's launch at 5000 rpm on slicks then worry about it.
guess you never heard about the 4L60E horror stories with LT and LS1's?!?! i know numerious of Fbody guys that toasted them on stock setups many times! 94-95 LT1 Fbody 4L60E's won't even shift from 1st to 2nd at WOT with out reprogramming. not sure about the vettes as i'm in the worlds largest 4th Gen Fbody club so i hear about the horror stories of the auto's in the Fbody's.
bullet proof? i think so. even the L98's are strong. listen to my motor idling all you here is injectors at 72k in miles. you run good stuff it shouldn't break. only things that have broke is 1 fuel pump and 2 alternators and now the MAF relays.
even D36's can take some power let alone D44's. run mid 10's launch at 5000 rpm on slicks then worry about it.
guess you never heard about the 4L60E horror stories with LT and LS1's?!?! i know numerious of Fbody guys that toasted them on stock setups many times! 94-95 LT1 Fbody 4L60E's won't even shift from 1st to 2nd at WOT with out reprogramming. not sure about the vettes as i'm in the worlds largest 4th Gen Fbody club so i hear about the horror stories of the auto's in the Fbody's.
I stand by my statement that the 700R4 is a POS. Just scan the threads... that's all you gotta do... every week, there are more and more posts about rebuilding or "my race built 700R4 just blew up", etc... They are not all that strong...
The 4+3? It's ok, I guess, but the box of choice is the ZF6, particuarlly the early version, 1989-E1993.
Team Owner
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 81,241
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From: altered state
St. Jude Donor '05
700 r's are a funny thing. Some last, most don't. My 89 at 123k is on the original and doing OK, the 700 in my 87 van has been done once and don't trust it at all, the 4L60(80?) in my '02 Silverado has already been redone once, and at 56k is ready for it again (defective front pumps). Thank God for extended warranties! Supposedly the 88-up 700r's are stronger and have better parts.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 83,383
Likes: 87
From: Boston, MA
I got my '87 at 98.5k miles. It went to 168k miles before I broke some teeth off of the gears inside the tranny. Those 79.5k miles I absolutely beat the living hell out of it. The engine itself had 0 issues. I had to replace a couple of alternators and catalytic converter, but that is it. I have no doubts that it would easily have gone over 200k miles if I didn't abuse it so much.