Hey, maybe TTI will sell me a pair.
Choosing proper t3/t4?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
Choosing proper t3/t4?
Basically, I've chosen to try and use 2 t3/t4 hybrid turbos in making a homemade kit for a stock c5. I've read all I can take on the various options out there, and I think this will be the most rewarding to me. I chose the t3/t4 to start with because they seemed to be used in all the existing turbo kits out there, not necessarily to copy, but I've also heard these are great turbos that allow much quicker spooling and they can be had for a great price.
This is a stock LS1 motor, desiring 6~9 psi, w/ circa 450-475rwhp. It will be intercooled, of course. The main point being, TWIN TURBO, on STOCK ENGINE. Maybe once I blow the motor, I'll lower compression and up the boost, but for now, this is what I desire.
Right now I'm trying to choose the proper sizes.
I'm new to this math, but does a .50/.70 sound proper for my specs? Any pointers would be appreciated on compresssor/turbine selection.
PR=1.68
VE=80%
DR=1.4
Disp.=346
max RPM=6000
total CFM=672??? right?
This is a stock LS1 motor, desiring 6~9 psi, w/ circa 450-475rwhp. It will be intercooled, of course. The main point being, TWIN TURBO, on STOCK ENGINE. Maybe once I blow the motor, I'll lower compression and up the boost, but for now, this is what I desire.
Right now I'm trying to choose the proper sizes.
I'm new to this math, but does a .50/.70 sound proper for my specs? Any pointers would be appreciated on compresssor/turbine selection.
PR=1.68
VE=80%
DR=1.4
Disp.=346
max RPM=6000
total CFM=672??? right?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,418
Likes: 1
From: Chicagoland Area IL
I would say your CFM value is a little too low…
Your VE may be a bit low, even with additional back pressure of turbo.
You are planning on some form of cooling, because your temperature rise will be at least 120 degrees F at 10 PSI of boost.
As an example, when I did calcs for supercharger at PR of 1.6:1 on 346 at same RPM. I came up with 58.21 lbs/min mass flow at 75% efficient intercooler and 1 PSI pressure drop.
PM me your exact parameters, adiabatic efficiency, intercooler efficiency, pressure drop (estimated) and I’ll send you back values. Or I may be able to strip down a spreadsheet that I used for supercharger sizing preliminary design.
Mike
Your VE may be a bit low, even with additional back pressure of turbo.
You are planning on some form of cooling, because your temperature rise will be at least 120 degrees F at 10 PSI of boost.
As an example, when I did calcs for supercharger at PR of 1.6:1 on 346 at same RPM. I came up with 58.21 lbs/min mass flow at 75% efficient intercooler and 1 PSI pressure drop.
PM me your exact parameters, adiabatic efficiency, intercooler efficiency, pressure drop (estimated) and I’ll send you back values. Or I may be able to strip down a spreadsheet that I used for supercharger sizing preliminary design.
Mike
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,976
Likes: 527
From: Clouds Over California
Originally Posted by kman0066
Basically, I've chosen to try and use 2 t3/t4 hybrid turbos in making a homemade kit for a stock c5. I've read all I can take on the various options out there, and I think this will be the most rewarding to me. I chose the t3/t4 to start with because they seemed to be used in all the existing turbo kits out there, not necessarily to copy, but I've also heard these are great turbos that allow much quicker spooling and they can be had for a great price.
This is a stock LS1 motor, desiring 6~9 psi, w/ circa 450-475rwhp. It will be intercooled, of course. The main point being, TWIN TURBO, on STOCK ENGINE. Maybe once I blow the motor, I'll lower compression and up the boost, but for now, this is what I desire.
Right now I'm trying to choose the proper sizes.
I'm new to this math, but does a .50/.70 sound proper for my specs? Any pointers would be appreciated on compresssor/turbine selection.
PR=1.68
VE=80%
DR=1.4
Disp.=346
max RPM=6000
total CFM=672??? right?
This is a stock LS1 motor, desiring 6~9 psi, w/ circa 450-475rwhp. It will be intercooled, of course. The main point being, TWIN TURBO, on STOCK ENGINE. Maybe once I blow the motor, I'll lower compression and up the boost, but for now, this is what I desire.
Right now I'm trying to choose the proper sizes.
I'm new to this math, but does a .50/.70 sound proper for my specs? Any pointers would be appreciated on compresssor/turbine selection.
PR=1.68
VE=80%
DR=1.4
Disp.=346
max RPM=6000
total CFM=672??? right?
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,474
Likes: 2
From: Detroit
Originally Posted by kman0066
... desiring 6~9 psi ...
Those are excellent turbos. It's all in how you size them though. Keep in mind that TT's that are designed to spool real well for a 450 rwhp application may not work very well at all in a 600+ rwhp setup (which is what you are going to want a week after your car is done).
Mark
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
Originally Posted by Skunkworks
I would say your CFM value is a little too low…
Your VE may be a bit low, even with additional back pressure of turbo.
You are planning on some form of cooling, because your temperature rise will be at least 120 degrees F at 10 PSI of boost.
As an example, when I did calcs for supercharger at PR of 1.6:1 on 346 at same RPM. I came up with 58.21 lbs/min mass flow at 75% efficient intercooler and 1 PSI pressure drop.
PM me your exact parameters, adiabatic efficiency, intercooler efficiency, pressure drop (estimated) and I’ll send you back values. Or I may be able to strip down a spreadsheet that I used for supercharger sizing preliminary design.
Mike
Your VE may be a bit low, even with additional back pressure of turbo.
You are planning on some form of cooling, because your temperature rise will be at least 120 degrees F at 10 PSI of boost.
As an example, when I did calcs for supercharger at PR of 1.6:1 on 346 at same RPM. I came up with 58.21 lbs/min mass flow at 75% efficient intercooler and 1 PSI pressure drop.
PM me your exact parameters, adiabatic efficiency, intercooler efficiency, pressure drop (estimated) and I’ll send you back values. Or I may be able to strip down a spreadsheet that I used for supercharger sizing preliminary design.
Mike
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
Nevermind, got it. I'm showing 10psi on a beautiful day would need 700cfm/48lb/min. That places me around the .50 T4 compressor for my hopes and then a little extra for perhaps one day later, now I just need to figure out which A/R for the turbine. They range from .36 to .82
The existing turbo kits out there seem to run .55 A/R turbine housings, but I can't seem to find any in that vicinity.
The existing turbo kits out there seem to run .55 A/R turbine housings, but I can't seem to find any in that vicinity.
Last edited by kman0066; Jul 7, 2005 at 01:53 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,418
Likes: 1
From: Chicagoland Area IL
Don’t forget your intercooler will increase air density and lower pressure, thus allowing centrifugal compressor to push more mass flow! Remember you get a delta-P from cooling effect and compressor will then flow more and you should compensate for that.
Mike
Mike
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 0
From: Hail 2 Da Victorz!
I have the TTI Stage III system and it has the hybrids, they were built by TEC. http://www.turboengineering.com/
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,474
Likes: 2
From: Detroit
Originally Posted by kman0066
... Hey, maybe TTI will sell me a pair ...
Mark
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 227
Likes: 6
From: Houston TX
Originally Posted by mdhmi
Those are excellent turbos. It's all in how you size them though. Keep in mind that TT's that are designed to spool real well for a 450 rwhp application may not work very well at all in a 600+ rwhp setup (which is what you are going to want a week after your car is done).
Mark
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
Originally Posted by mdhmi
I can't see why TTi wouldn't sell you the manifolds. I think the manifolds are around $3K, although I might be misremembering.
Mark
Mark
eek...$3k...for manifolds...you've got to be kidding. I was figuring <1k, circa $800-900 max. Hmm, maybe going with custom jobs, to save myself money, go figure, oh well, I'll contact them to be sure. Buying premade deals sure would save me a ton of downtime though.
You know, someone out there needs to make a HOT kit for us tinkerers. I personally couldn't be satisfied just buying a kit, I would feel much better knowing that I created something. Just the hotside components minus the turbo/BOV. Basically, the manifolds/downpipes/heatshields, you know, something to start from. So if any turbo kit manufacturers are out there listening, please.
lol. All the other cars out there seem to have them, including the LS1 f-body guys. The HOT kit wouldn't even have to be somethign new, just sell the HOT components from your existing turbo kit, minus turbos and BOV's.
Last edited by kman0066; Jul 8, 2005 at 03:45 AM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
OK, getting closer, found this.
http://www.forcedinductions.com/GMC5kits2.htm
They're offering their HOT kit for 3k, but it's a but on the crazy side for me, I want to mount my turbos down low, i.e. the TTI kit. So, if this company can offer all this crazy piping for 3k, I know I can get some manifolds for a better price...I hope.
-------------------
If you guys haven't figured it out, I'm trying to build an ultimate budget twin turbo setup. I have a bunch of leftover parts(to include a couple of intercoolers, gauges, some pipes, and various other turbo hardware) from an old desire to build a c4 tt kit, which ended up failing before I got started(motor blew, so I built a NA motor instead). This kit isn't likely to look very pretty, but man o man, will she fly. I don't spend to much time showing off my engine bay anyways
The tune, we'll have to see on this. I've learned a few basics, and hopefully I can get her running to the dyno, and then will come the bucks, but hey, this comes with any forced induction setup.
http://www.forcedinductions.com/GMC5kits2.htm
They're offering their HOT kit for 3k, but it's a but on the crazy side for me, I want to mount my turbos down low, i.e. the TTI kit. So, if this company can offer all this crazy piping for 3k, I know I can get some manifolds for a better price...I hope.
-------------------
If you guys haven't figured it out, I'm trying to build an ultimate budget twin turbo setup. I have a bunch of leftover parts(to include a couple of intercoolers, gauges, some pipes, and various other turbo hardware) from an old desire to build a c4 tt kit, which ended up failing before I got started(motor blew, so I built a NA motor instead). This kit isn't likely to look very pretty, but man o man, will she fly. I don't spend to much time showing off my engine bay anyways
The tune, we'll have to see on this. I've learned a few basics, and hopefully I can get her running to the dyno, and then will come the bucks, but hey, this comes with any forced induction setup.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
Well, I called up TTI and they said $1500 for their manifolds, which will allow me to directly bolt-up the t3 turbine flange.
So, I guess I'm going to bite the bullet. I feel like I'm getting a little ripped off here, but it seems the best way to go. Purchasing them leaves only the turbo to exhaust bend left and I would be done with the hot side, so in the long run, they might actually save me money. Also the cast manifolds should last a lot longer than tube style headers. So in the end, I should be looking at about a $3500 build up + tuning cost & accessories +++TIME. I'll keep track of everything I purchase and post up a summary of what everything cost and how well or not it worked.
So, I'll be back, with probably many more questions, thanks for all the help guys.
So, I guess I'm going to bite the bullet. I feel like I'm getting a little ripped off here, but it seems the best way to go. Purchasing them leaves only the turbo to exhaust bend left and I would be done with the hot side, so in the long run, they might actually save me money. Also the cast manifolds should last a lot longer than tube style headers. So in the end, I should be looking at about a $3500 build up + tuning cost & accessories +++TIME. I'll keep track of everything I purchase and post up a summary of what everything cost and how well or not it worked.
So, I'll be back, with probably many more questions, thanks for all the help guys.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 20,474
Likes: 2
From: Detroit
Start adding up how much nice BB T3/4 turbos are + down pipes + manifolds + large FMIC, etc, etc and you'll see that the kit price is really very reasonable.
Good luck on your buildup.
Cheers,
Mark
Good luck on your buildup.
Cheers,
Mark
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,160
Likes: 10
From: Nashville TN
errr, kind of. The thing is they do use nice stuff. One major item here, is that spending 10k is not an option for me. I'm not rich. And I won't be using BB turbos either I know they are far superior, but they also have a much more superior price. If I were to buy a kit, it would be a SC kit, since they are almost in the affordable range, but not quite.
Oh well, thanks, I'll need all the luck I can get.
I know they are far superior, but they also have a much more superior price. If I were to buy a kit, it would be a SC kit, since they are almost in the affordable range, but not quite.Oh well, thanks, I'll need all the luck I can get.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,116
Likes: 10
From: Macomb MI
Couple of thoughts
9psi on 346 you will need 55-57 lb/min. On a good flowing 346 you will need 60lb/min.
You mention all you needed to worry about is the bend on the exhaust, what will you be doing for wastegates?
Phil
9psi on 346 you will need 55-57 lb/min. On a good flowing 346 you will need 60lb/min.
You mention all you needed to worry about is the bend on the exhaust, what will you be doing for wastegates?
Phil
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 6,976
Likes: 527
From: Clouds Over California
Originally Posted by kman0066
Well, I called up TTI and they said $1500 for their manifolds, which will allow me to directly bolt-up the t3 turbine flange.
So, I guess I'm going to bite the bullet. I feel like I'm getting a little ripped off here, but it seems the best way to go.
So, I guess I'm going to bite the bullet. I feel like I'm getting a little ripped off here, but it seems the best way to go.
The header is the most important part to build the Turbo kit around. Casting is very expensive. George (TTi) put a lot of time into his header, and the new header (accomodates a T3 flange) has showed significant gains over the previous version. I wouldn't feel too bad about spending $1500 on a set of headers that are cast and made for a TT system, or any header that was designed good for a TT system on the C5.
If you were to embark on trying to come up with your own header, you would probably find that it would at least take $1500 in fabrication and R&D to produce a solid header for which to build and design a good TT around.
If anything you should feel lucky that TTi is willing to sell individual parts out of their kit, for somebody building their own. Not too many companies will do this, unless their intent was to do it in the first place.
Good luck.
Look forward to see what you come up with.