What am I missing???
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,931
Likes: 2
From: Tx
Originally Posted by muncie21
Any idea why the import 4 and 6 cyclinders can handle 30 and 40 PSI of boost? I love driving the torqueee LS1, but wonder what is so different between the motors that prevents us from running that much boost without blowing pistons or head gaskets. There's a guy running a Lexus SC300 on stock internals at around 38 PSI. Supposedly been drag racing this way for a year or so before the motor let go. BTW, he's in the 9's in a 3800 # car with a 6-speed. All I can say is WOW. Not that I'd give up the C5 to drive a Lexus, but it might be fun for a little while 
The keys to making the insane HP levels are : (boost, boost and more boost + )
- Solid sealing surfaces (factory designed with boost in mind) there are a lot of bolts holding that head on
- Very low static compression (a real dud in off boost)
- ring positions designed specifically for boost
- oil squirters and a galley in the pistons (to cool the pistons in high boost)
- a boost capable ECU
- A head with 4 valves per cylinder and double over head cams that flows great and revs like a ****.
And don't think for a second that a 2jz or any other import motor running at that level of power will not pop. It happens all the time. One mistake in the tune and that is it.
Bottom line, boost is the replacement for displacement. It is actually a heck of a lot easier to make usable power with an lsx motor.
Just look at it this way, A stock 3.0 na supra made 160 crank hp.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 181
From: NE OH
Originally Posted by QuickSilver2002
First off, there is no stock motor SC300 running 38PSI and 9s. They most likely transplanted a turbo motor in that car a (2jz-gte). (This is why they say it is stock) The stock SC300 na motor (2jz-ge) will make some decent power with aftermarket pistons and rods, but I don't think it could run that car into the 9s even with those components. One thing is for sure, there is no way that thing had stock NA compression pistons in it.
The keys to making the insane HP levels are : (boost, boost and more boost + )
- Solid sealing surfaces (factory designed with boost in mind) there are a lot of bolts holding that head on
- Very low static compression (a real dud in off boost)
- ring positions designed specifically for boost
- oil squirters and a galley in the pistons (to cool the pistons in high boost)
- a boost capable ECU
- A head with 4 valves per cylinder and double over head cams that flows great and revs like a ****.
And don't think for a second that a 2jz or any other import motor running at that level of power will not pop. It happens all the time. One mistake in the tune and that is it.
Bottom line, boost is the replacement for displacement. It is actually a heck of a lot easier to make usable power with an lsx motor.
Just look at it this way, A stock 3.0 na supra made 160 crank hp.
The keys to making the insane HP levels are : (boost, boost and more boost + )
- Solid sealing surfaces (factory designed with boost in mind) there are a lot of bolts holding that head on
- Very low static compression (a real dud in off boost)
- ring positions designed specifically for boost
- oil squirters and a galley in the pistons (to cool the pistons in high boost)
- a boost capable ECU
- A head with 4 valves per cylinder and double over head cams that flows great and revs like a ****.
And don't think for a second that a 2jz or any other import motor running at that level of power will not pop. It happens all the time. One mistake in the tune and that is it.
Bottom line, boost is the replacement for displacement. It is actually a heck of a lot easier to make usable power with an lsx motor.
Just look at it this way, A stock 3.0 na supra made 160 crank hp.
dam man you are good. I rechecked the original post (at Supraforums) and yep, the motor is a stock bottom end 2jz-gte motor, not the 2jz-ge that I originally thought. Even though, that's some killer ETs and HP from 'only a 6 cylinder'
Here's the link to the vids ( 9-second run ) if anyone is interested in seeing an import luxury car go 9.xx @143...oh yea, it's a 6-speed also. I'm not trying to turn this into a Toyota forum, just thought that other gear heads would be interested in seeing what a little boost can do.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 6,147
Likes: 32
From: Dallas TX
Originally Posted by leojnknsC5
Don't ever forget that those guys bombed Pearl Harbor. They will do anything for some attention.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,237
Likes: 9
From: Springhill FL
Yea, its all about the free revving engines. You throw a turbo on it and it just pushes through the revs all the faster, easy as that. V8s have balance issues to contend with and can only rev so high(or quickly) before something has to give. It just seems to take alot more planning and tuning to make an V8 put out those numbers.
I was always a hardcore american V8 guy until I bought a honda sport bike. Man there is just something about a low stroke engine shrieking to 15k RPM that cant be compared to. Its a compeltely different ball game.
I was always a hardcore american V8 guy until I bought a honda sport bike. Man there is just something about a low stroke engine shrieking to 15k RPM that cant be compared to. Its a compeltely different ball game.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
From: New England
This talk about momentum, only short stroke engines can make a lot of power, and V8s not being able to take the loads is absolute BS.
You guys might want to take a damn hard look at the engines used to push the quickest cars on earth... Top fuel engines make thousands of hp and I don't see any in-line 6's or tiny stroke engines in those things!!!
It's all about the amount of air the engine can flow throw it, the more boost that can be applied, the more air will be crammed into the cylinders, the more power the engine will make. The 2jz-gte was designed from the factory to handle huge cylinder pressures, the LSx engines were not designed to run any boost. If the LSx block, heads, mating surfaces, and rotating assembly were equally built from the factory, you'd see LSx engines running 40 psi too. Generally speaking, bigger engines will always make more power given equal boost with all things being equal. With enough boost smaller engines can behave like larger engines (although with a couple drawbacks). In this case, the larger LSx engines were not designed to handle the kind of pressures the 2jz-gte can, therefore the 2jz-gte can perform like a larger engine by being able to handle almost 2x as much boost. It has nothing to do with in-line 6's being a better engine than V8's.
You guys might want to take a damn hard look at the engines used to push the quickest cars on earth... Top fuel engines make thousands of hp and I don't see any in-line 6's or tiny stroke engines in those things!!!
It's all about the amount of air the engine can flow throw it, the more boost that can be applied, the more air will be crammed into the cylinders, the more power the engine will make. The 2jz-gte was designed from the factory to handle huge cylinder pressures, the LSx engines were not designed to run any boost. If the LSx block, heads, mating surfaces, and rotating assembly were equally built from the factory, you'd see LSx engines running 40 psi too. Generally speaking, bigger engines will always make more power given equal boost with all things being equal. With enough boost smaller engines can behave like larger engines (although with a couple drawbacks). In this case, the larger LSx engines were not designed to handle the kind of pressures the 2jz-gte can, therefore the 2jz-gte can perform like a larger engine by being able to handle almost 2x as much boost. It has nothing to do with in-line 6's being a better engine than V8's.
2nd Gear
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
All the 2JZ-GE needs to run big boost is a head-gasket swap. It drops the compression enough for the same big boost as a GTE. Some say it's an even better platform than the GTE due to better head-flow and a few other internal changes.
Take a look at this thread and look at #21 http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=253322
"21. 9.46@143 Dave Henry Innovate Motorsports Auto NA-T Stock NA engine"
For the lazy
This motor had a stock (unported) head, stock bottom end, 264 intake cam, stock exhaust cam, thicker headgasket and ARP head studs... he was running 28 psi and 150 shot.
Take a look at this thread and look at #21 http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=253322
"21. 9.46@143 Dave Henry Innovate Motorsports Auto NA-T Stock NA engine"
For the lazy
This motor had a stock (unported) head, stock bottom end, 264 intake cam, stock exhaust cam, thicker headgasket and ARP head studs... he was running 28 psi and 150 shot.
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Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,088
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From: Metro Detroit Michigan
Originally Posted by SS930
It has nothing to do with in-line 6's being a better engine than V8's.
First, as already mentioned, there are two cylinders and con. rods between every main bearing on a V8, versus 1 on some inlines.
Second, both of these pistons and rods are pushing down on the same journal at about the same time:
Cylinders 1 and 2, 4 and 3, 6 and 5. (18436572 firing order)
Even at 1500 horse on a big block, main bearings that are somewhat curved instead of flat are often used to keep from wiping out the bearing edges when the crank bends enough to no longer sit flat on the bearing.
At really high horsepower levels, cranks are replaced as a part of scheduled maintenance whether they show flaws or not.
As you said though, other things are the limiting factors with our Corvette engines at this point.
Just hashing theory with you.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,153
Likes: 114
ok i know i might be repeating a load of stuff but i living in the UK i have grown up with high rpm small cc motors!
first off the EVOs 4G64 can easly handle 2.3bar on a bone stock engine, and so can its turbo, but only till about 6K then the turbo runs out of puff! and these things run a 8.8-1 comp. ratio! not exactly low!!
i remeber the old Ford Cossy days! guys used to drop them down to 7.0 to 1 and then turn the boost up to over 30psi! they made 500bhp on stock bottom ends (cossworth did a real good job on them) but they lagged like a b*ch! but thats not the case these days with high compresion and but with more power!
as people have said, it whats right for you! taking it to exstreams, the thought of a 500bhp 2.0ltr four pot (never mind V8) in a 500kg (1100lbs) lotus seven replica is just crazzy!!! but a twin turbo LSx making 1000bhp in a 3500lbs car is not THAT mad! but truck guys would laugh you out the building with your little torque figures compared to what they get!!!! each to their own!!!
thanks Chris.
PS. very good point about its what you do with it more than what you have!!!!
first off the EVOs 4G64 can easly handle 2.3bar on a bone stock engine, and so can its turbo, but only till about 6K then the turbo runs out of puff! and these things run a 8.8-1 comp. ratio! not exactly low!!
i remeber the old Ford Cossy days! guys used to drop them down to 7.0 to 1 and then turn the boost up to over 30psi! they made 500bhp on stock bottom ends (cossworth did a real good job on them) but they lagged like a b*ch! but thats not the case these days with high compresion and but with more power!
as people have said, it whats right for you! taking it to exstreams, the thought of a 500bhp 2.0ltr four pot (never mind V8) in a 500kg (1100lbs) lotus seven replica is just crazzy!!! but a twin turbo LSx making 1000bhp in a 3500lbs car is not THAT mad! but truck guys would laugh you out the building with your little torque figures compared to what they get!!!! each to their own!!!
thanks Chris.
PS. very good point about its what you do with it more than what you have!!!!
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,921
Likes: 1
From: Minburn Ia
Originally Posted by c131frdave
Think about this, lets say we spin up a corvette motor to 3000 rpm. Now lets shut it off and force the engine to stop instantly. Imagine the massive amount torque generated from suddenly stopping that engine. Now lets spin it up to 6000 rpm and do the same thing. Ah ha! Lots more torque, right? Now lets spin up a 4 cylinder rice burner engine to 9000 rpm and stop it suddenly. You can begin to see why higher rpm motors generally make more power- free power through the momentum of the rotating parts.
Hope that makes sense...
Hope that makes sense...
You were comparing it to the 8 cylinder @ 6K .... and making point about lots of TQ for the vette on sudden stoppage. Suddenly you jump over to comparing TQ with Free HP ?????
What gives ?
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,921
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From: Minburn Ia
Originally Posted by DDSLT5
Nobody seems to have realized that the engine in the vette is a V-8 and the others are in-line motors. The 4 cylinder motors have the same number of main caps and bearings as the V-8, and the 6 cylinder has 2 more mains! All the forces are balanced in the in-line 6, while the V-8 is neither balanced nor does it have enough mains to keep the bottom end strong. Against all these odds, there are still plenty of LSx motors making 1500 rwhp. 
Good points .... does anyone make a straight 8 ? That should be the monster mash ... if it had 6-7 liters and could be made to fit inside a vette.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 37,022
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From: This city NEVER sleeps! Frank's back yard!
Originally Posted by bernrex
Good points .... does anyone make a straight 8 ? That should be the monster mash ... if it had 6-7 liters and could be made to fit inside a vette.
Straight 8 would be insanely strong - only thing is that you'd be able to change cylinder #8 while sipping your slurpie, because it would be sticking out past the centre console - no radio or climate control for you!
1st Gear
Joined: Aug 2005
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the guys over at www.to4r.com really do have some impressive cars. That is where the really high HP cars hang out. Most of those cars have over 700whp with quite a few getting over 1000. I think that the most important factor is the amount of main bearings (7 I think), the bulletproof motor, and the fact that some of the guys are running GT42Rs that are coming on boost at 5K+ rpms. I agree with the poster that said that they are dyno queens or cars that wouldn't make it down the strip very often. The exception is the Titan supra program that is just absolutely insane.....You could power New York city with that motor.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,921
Likes: 1
From: Minburn Ia
Originally Posted by DDSLT5
Straight 8 would be insanely strong - only thing is that you'd be able to change cylinder #8 while sipping your slurpie, because it would be sticking out past the centre console - no radio or climate control for you!
But, 10 inches is huge .... will never happen.
Safety Car
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,921
Likes: 1
From: Minburn Ia
Originally Posted by muncie21
And here I thought 10 inches was standard equipment 
J/J.
J/J.Last edited by bernrex; Nov 23, 2005 at 11:40 AM.
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 5,241
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From: Knoxville Tennessee
Originally Posted by leojnknsC5
Don't ever forget that those guys bombed Pearl Harbor. They will do anything for some attention.