kwhiteside

I'm about ready to jump into this for a quick kick at the dragstrip. I've done quite a bit or research and think I have picked a very safe setup and have found detailed instruction with pics in Vette Magazine for my exact kit. I'm confident and ready to install a basic plate kit at a minimal expense to gain 1 second in the quarter.

However, safety is critical to me, and of course cost is always important. So you start looking into the add on guages, pods, etc. This is where it gets expensive.

So, I would like to start a serious discussion about the readings. Admittantly, I'm a wannabe who has just researched so I realize my understanding may be wrong, but I will humble myself and throw some thoughts out there. Flame suit on, feel free to lay the facts out there.

Fuel Pressure readings. I understand 12.5 to be rich and 14.6 to be dangerously lean. It is always said that you may want to upgrade your fuel pump. Since I'm starting a 50-150 kit, I'm staying stock, but am concerned about this reading. I consider this the most important reading. read on before jumping on me.

Nitrous Pressure. Critical to be consistent around 1000lbs or the proper air/fuel/no2 mixture will be jacked and results can be damaging. Surges, unexpected quick hits, etc. This is why bottle heaters are recommended. I've opted for the Nano Nitrous to assure the pressure and therefore figure this reading is less critical.

Wideband Air/Fuel ratio. Not mentioned as much when I research but seems to be the endall desired reading. If you read the DEX install instructions they talk about taking the spark plugs out and reading the colors on them. Why, to figure out if your are running rich or lean. Running lean with Nitrous causes damage. Why do they change your plugs from NGK 55 to NGK 6, to cool down the explosions. Why do they retard your timing a bit, more protection. All safety measure to protect against lean nitrous hits. Why not know if you are lean? My guess is because the gauge involves hooking to the o2 sensor bung which isn't as easily accomplished. It seems to me this reading might actaully be useful for road racing too. Running your cars for 20-30 minutes between 90 and 150 contant and close to red line. Engine temps soar here, lean would be real bad, rich will carbon your engine all up.

Oil pressure / water temp. Ya ya, you always have to watch these things.

Pyrometer / Exhaust Gas Temp. Air Fuel mixture seems more important to me than just the temp of the exhaust gas.

So if one went all out and spared no expense, having a triple pod with three guages for Fuel Pressure, Nitrous Pressure, A/F ratio would be really great. Probably over 1k to do that right and I'm not sure if you want to run the A/F wideband hooked up to the O/2 all the time.

I'm thinking about starting with just the fuel pressure rectangular digital readout built into the switch panel by the cig lighter, and trusting that the Nano will keep the nitrous pressure where it needs to be as that is what Nano is made for.

And Ken bends down to take cover, flame suit on, flame away

Blow Torch

If one gauge, AFR, if two gauges, AFR and N2O pressure.
By the way, you NEVER want to see 12.5 afr while spraying N2O. I jetted to come in around 11.5-11.8 personally (just like I will with FI)
12.5-12.8 is about right for good power/safety NA, but not while spraying.
I would recommend having it dyno'd while spraying, and just jet up or down based on the AFR. Then you will KNOW where you're at both NA and spraying

If you are going to put a gauge in your ashtray, put the N2O, since once you open the bottle, that will not change much (until after a run) compared to the AFR, which, if visible you could see spike and get OUT of it!
Just my thoughts

kwhiteside

I knew that sounded important. Can you tell me about the hookup. Seems like they plug into exhaust pipe with an 02 bung. In my case, typical headers, front bungs move to back and front holes capped, would you just plug into one of those front holes and leave it plugged in permanantly? I read the ones that work off existing o2 bungs are not accurate. I've also seen $500 kits that plug into laptops and store data over time so you can analyze runs.

Do you have one now, if so tell me about its hookup please.

Blow Torch

All you need to do is take it by the muffler shop and have them install an "O2 bung" in the collector of your header, or right after them (must be before cats.) I have the bungs installed all my performance vehicles. The one on my wife's car, for instance, is so I can "temporary" screw in a wide band O2 sensor and hook up my LM1 wide band for tuning with HPTuners. The rest of the time it has a plug in it. ($350+ for LMI)
The one in my car has a permanently mounted LC1 wide band that I have mounted in a gauge pod. ($190+ for LC1) It is a simple hook up with a hot wire, ground wire, and wire running to the new O2 you just installed.
You do not want to take out your narrow band sensors. The are responsible for maintaining the proper afr while cruising.

Corvette-Chris

I always considered A/F ratio and Fuel pressure the most important with a small liquid filled nitrous pressure guage mounted to the bottle.

Also, I hooked my wideband to the O2 port in the X-pipe, after the cats. It reads nearly dead on and I will continue to keep it there. I always read that it needed to be before the cats but after doing some research, I saw that some highly respected tuners were putting thier widebands in the same location. No problems whatsoever

kwhiteside

Consensus from yesterday was A/F most important here. Strangely enough from the thread I posted over at LS1Tech where they are way more bottle heads, they said A/F is unreliable. I'm gonna have to ignore the LS1Tech guy and go with you guys as I've seen Mike out at Vengeance do his tunes. He hooks up a bung to get the A/F, tweaks his tables, does a bunch of dyno passes to make sure he got the desired results. If the best tuners rely on it, it must be useful.

So I did some research.

According to the wideband shootout Innovate has the best product.
http://paceperformance.com/paceperfo...ndshootout.pdf

They have quite a few products, but really the LC-1 is at the core taking the readings. They have kits with guages, dataloggers, and hook up to HPTuner, EFILive, LS1Edit. (I think mike uses LS1Edit)

Upon a little further research it seems that just having a guage to look at a second in time isn't really going to help you much. Then it seems that dumping the A/F data without having the corresponding RPM's isn't that useful either as you don't know where exactly to tweak your tables without knowing the RPM.

So my understanding at this point is that the gauge is really just for show. What you need is to log the data through a run and have the corresponding RPM's to match the A/F data.

This means you need to have at least the LC-1 + RPM converter + ( LM-1 or LM-2) or a fancy tuner like LS1Edit.

Now if you don't have the fancy tuner like LS1Edit, but you have the LM-1 Data logger, what will you do if you find you are running rich or lean at a certain RPM. Other than a nozzle change, what else can you tweak without having the fancy tuner? Does the nozzle change really tune you in, or will it mess up the rest of the curve to some extent? Now we are back to everybodies comments of "Get a Tune" If you get that tune and everything is dialed in, do you really need all this A/F monitoring? At this point what you need is something to tell you that something has changed so much that the tune is longer effective. What would that be?

Slow Z06

fuel,n20,afr


lifelines

Beer99C5@FastbirdPerf.com

I agree with the WB being the most useful, as well as the Nitrous pressure guage being what you need to spray safely. You are spot on as well about logging (RPM module needed if your doing logworks-the software with the LC-1), but not needed if your using EFI Live or HPT.

The comment by PMB @ LS1tech is to forgo the WB and read plugs, and was only one of two comments. This being said reading the plugs is a great way to tune, as he is running a 8 sec car and shuts down after the run. Not really practical for casual users going to the track a couple times a year. Call any of the Nitrous venders, Dynotune, Nitrous Outlet, HSW and they will pretty much tell you what you have already picked up- Wideband and bottle pressure are the right tools for properly tuning Nitrous.

Here is what you can see with logging. This is a 50 dry shot (testing the system) in the 1/4 mile after a new tranny/converter.
External PID's added
LC1 Wideband
Fuel Pressure Autometer Sending unit only-no gauge
Nitrous Pressure goes to Gauge and logger
Relay Status for Dry and Wet Shots

Troubleshooting done from this log...
1. Notice the KR (should be 0), looks like burst knock ...got some fixing to do there see how it decays at a steady rate and is independant of RPM...10 degrees KR at launch is Is this a function of my new convertor (RPM increases quicker and the PCM see's a huge increase in flow its not expecting???Therefore pulls some timing???)
2. Dry Shot Active is my Dry relay (0=off, 1=on)...looks like it is intermitently spraying and not on the entire time through the window...as well its spraying on the shift w/RPMs decreasing (second-to third), it should not be...
3. Look at the Wideband AFR-above 3000 RPM on spray it needs to be between 11-12. Seems to be pretty good (LOL at least that is workin! ) Commanded AFR is plotted against Wideband AFR to see how close you are tune wise.
4. You can see the IAT come down from the spray as it should
5. Nitrous Pressure, this is with a NANO, you can see the bottle at 1000 psi at start, and it goes to about 935. Being it was only a 50 shot and was spraying intermitently, I dont think the check valve had the pressure differential to keep it open to try and maintain the bottle at 1000 psi.
6. Look at the speed, caught a good patch of rubber on the first to second shift




Of note the NA run was 12.7, with the KR
The half *** Spray run (the above log) was 12.0
Gotta solve the tune issues

Here is a Pic of my gauge/s

kwhiteside

Thank you so much for that last post. I'm gonna digest that before I blurt out, but that post got me really excited. I'll have questions for sure.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

Understood you're asking about gauges, but a good tip for a nitrous newb is to start out with a 50 shot, tune it and go to 75, tune it and progressively step it up. That way things don't get out of hand.

kwhiteside

Thanks to Beer for that great post. (why do people hid their names?)

When I do the Nitrous I will start 50 and move up to 100 then 150. All part of the fun I hope.

So after getting some clarity from your post, my Mod order for the next couple months are as follows.

I'm gonna go ahead and get the EFILive/LC-1 bundle from MPH when I get my FAST92/LS2. I'll log to EFI before switching the intake, then log after and play with that a bit. I would expect to see things get lean due to the new airflow, unless the computer naturally takes care of things. If that happens, I would expect to at least see more air and gas getting to the engine. If you know what will really happen during this baseline / mod experiment, please post up so I can learn quicker what the heck to look for with the EFI. BTW, planning on the V1scan&tune+LC1 for $649, is that a mistake?

Phase two will be the Nitrous Plate kit and I'm seriously thinking about that Trick gauge http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...roduct_id=2887 I sure would like more details of how that gauge/controller actually gets all its readings and how it actually interfaces with the nitrous noids to do its safety shut offs if bottle runs out, or fuel pressure gets low. I'm sure I'll figure out the LC-1 hook to the gauge, but what did you use to get bottle level and the fuel pressure ( you said fp not to gauge, what fed to the efi and why not go to gauge so it can shut down nitrous if too low?)

Oh, my 02Vert A4 drove away from my house today and now all I have if the 01Z. Judging by your throttle curve, or should I say line stuck at 100% for the whole run, I'm thinking I'm really going to miss my A4 at the drag strip

Chris.Shea

This is how i started. Driving around with my FAST WB and laptop w/ HP Tuners logging everything. If you goof with a bigger shot it is very unforgiving to the stock pistons. Make a quick pull and shut off the motor. pull your plugs and check them. Plugs are great indicators of exactly what is happening in the cylinders. My mustang buddy toasts plugs with his zex kit. The irony is that it popped his motor as he was convincing another stang guy to buy nitrous

BLOWNBLUEZ06

Reminds me of my father trying to teach people to day trade after he traded away 250k in the market in 2 years time. Totally nuts!!!