cobill1972

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLOWNBLUEZ06
Impressive!



You're already running on what I consider the ragged edge, so what happens when (notice I didn't say if? ) your meth quits or even studders at WOT?

Just sayin'


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Go ahead and say it, because I won't . I think anything over 650 is probably running on the ragged edge on a stock block. Most tuners will tell you anything over 600 might live for a while or might not. Two years ago I'm sure people would say if you hit over 600 on a stock lower it it would grenade on the dyno. I fully understand and know what will happen not might happen over time. I'm guessing a ring landing will go eventually if I stayed on this set up for an extended time.

When I took my car down to get tuned I figured it would pull some high numbers, but I wanted it as safe as what safe could be on my combo. The tuner actually could have pushed it closer to the 740-750ish numbers, but contacted me and said it's getting past the "ragged edge" so he started pulling timing back and ended with 710/582. I called him today, because after reading multiple post the general consenus is that it's to the lean side gave me reason for concern, but he doesn't feel it's lean. I'm not sure if tuning a car at a higher altitude makes a difference targeting an A/F ratio. I am no expert on this and don't claim to be. I know the tuner said at 6200 and a 12.2 a/f zero knock it would live until the weakest link. Of course I have an extra engine that I'm getting ready, and it would make me feel better to see it backed down to mid 11's in the A/F department. Maybe I should just back it down so I can sleep at night.
I am also not an expert on meth injection, but after speaking with Snow today they claim that you can get away with a higher a/f ratio, but like blownblue said if the meth cuts out yep I'm probably screwed. I should do some sort of kill switch just in case. In the Snow manual it shows 12.0's-12.5's should be targeted. I spoke with a tech at Snow performance that told me that the meth injection would lower me about a point on the targeted a/f mixture and would not show up fully on a wideband (didn't make sense to me, but again dunno).

Someone please jump in on this one that know's more on the effects of Meth injection because simply I just don't know.


Thanks, Bill

BLOWNBLUEZ06

I'm not going to tell you that your motor can't handle that much power because the fact is that under the right circumstances, it can and if those circumstances remain, it should be able to continue for a good while.
Meth does have a higher octane as well as their cooling effects. Methanol injection pumps do fail.
You can get away with 12.2:1 AFR at 10psi boost and I won't argue that. The problem I see is if you get water in your meth or if anything happens to the system where you don't get your meth as you did when it was tuned, you're going to risk being without it's benefits, but more importantly it'll be the perfect recipe for disaster. You have what I call a meth-reliant tune. As long as you're aware of the consequences, by all means continue. If a tuner set that up for someone that was unaware their motor is all but guaranteed to fail if anything happens to the meth system, that would be unacceptable. There are ways to tune a car to help deal with a meth failure, but the sensors in the car don't react quickly enough to prevent a moment of detonation. That small window is enough to torch a stock motor but a forged motor may live.
There is a methanol injection system that has a flow meter that can trigger something if the methanol stops flowing for any reason. For the record, I have no personal experience with this system or flow meter.
The other alternative is to create a non-meth-reliant tune. Tune the car on pump gas and then add the meth for safety. It won't make as much power, but you may consider asking yourself " how many more races am I going to lose with 50 less rear wheel horsepower?".

cobill1972

I agree and I did speak with Snow about a "flow" meter that incase the flow does stop working you can sent a signal to a few different systems to help save the engine. I'm not a chemist either so I just purchase snow's pre mixed "boost juice". I know ton's of people mix there own, but it makes me feel better. I'm not sure what the cut off it on when the engine melts down or rattles apart my guess is it's probably different case to case. If what Snow was telling me yesterday was correct the meth/water injection usually drops you about a point on the A/F's that being said if I'm full in it and the meth kit fails chances are she's not going to make it especially not being a forged engine. The tuner told me straight up that when I picked up the car it's a meth tune and if the meth does run out or fail hell will be paid. Of course in that same breath he was shaking his head about the stock guts and called me because the power level was getting a little unrealistic. I should have probably educated myself on the use of meth injection and what tune I should have went for it's a learning experience. I think anytime someone pushes close to 800 crank horse on a stock block no one is going to stand up and say wow that's a good idea. I wouldn't run around and say it's great for everyone to do either. If it breaks I'm not going to loose sleep over it either and I know that I'm pushing it.
Back to what is a safe non-meth tune. I think it goes back to the "if you get bad gas" area. I was talking to a tuner a few weeks ago that targets around 11.5 for a tune and then add's meth. So if meth drops a point does that put the car around 10.5 wot? Or if you tune with meth around 11.0 and the meth fails does that put you closer to the 12.0? These are things I just don't know and I hope someone breaks it down or gives it a closer rule of thumb. There are a lot of things that could and probably will fail on my engine rings, pistons, crank, and now meth injection. I would have felt better if my A/F's were lower though and probably will get that changed. On a brighter note the car runs hard. lol
Great discussion topic I think.

Thanks, Bill

joshtownsend

Yes... and it should fall on it's face from being rich.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

The only way I have of knowing how things are going to change when the meth kicks on is to tune a car on pump and then throw meth at it. Each system has different pumps and jets. Some, like me, use straight meth and some use varying ratios. I am meth reliant and certainly am not criticizing. I simply feel like the car owner should be educated (by themselves or the tuner) enough to make a decision about how the meth should be applied. If I install a system and tune a car, I always ask and make sure they're well aware of the circumstances. Some folks on here might be confused by my advice. I try to be cautious when giving advice and would rather share my thoughts and/or some technical info and let the car owner decide.

Chris Stewart

Loves me some meth. Stock LS6, 92 pump.

cobill1972

Chris love that car and I can't tell you how many times I looked over those numbers and saw the stock LS6 right next to it. With those tq numbers how does that thing hold together taking off?

cobill1972

You hit the nail on the head what I'm trying to do is educate myself better on the effects of meth. People who listen tend to learn, people who think they know everything I feel are probably at a dead end. I have an idea, but certainly not an expert, but I know just enough to make me dangerous. I also agree with you on your statement about being cautious on giving advice. A member on this forum can give great advise, but someone forgets the slightest detail and all hell breaks loose.

When you tune and then throw meth at it are you noticing a drastic change in your wideband when the meth is applied? I would think you would see a change as soon as it's introduced. Also I'm not running straight meth, but I also have heard some systems say it's prefered to run a mix I'm just wondering if you see any better cooling properties out of it on your IAT's. I'm guessing some of the systems shy away form straight meth, because of the effects straight meth might have on the pump, lines, ect. The new Snow kit that I'm using is what they are calling the stage three with dual nozzles and they recommend a mix. According to Snow it's good a little over 1000hp on the set up that I'm using. They system is pretty nice and what I felt was simple to hook up.

I own a repair shop here, but I have not messed with tuning. I am waiting for a mustang dyno that I ordered almost a month ago to show up so I can tinker and play a little more with my cars using hp tuners.


Thanks again,
Bill

joshtownsend

Snow recommends a mix for legal reasons.. no other reason other then that. in fact, if you call tech support, they will tell you you can run 100% all day long and be more consistent. Consistency is key and if you only run 100%, you know exactly what you are getting everything and don't have to wonder if yuor mix is 50/50 or 45/55 or something like that.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

If you tune using the AFR% error histogram with HPtuners (or based on feedback from your wideband), you don't get an idea of how much things change. You input (mathematically) your desired AFR at WOT (or at certain boost increments for 2 or 3 bar O.S.'s) and use those % errors to correct the VE, MAF or both, so when doing it that way, you don't see any change on the wideband when the meth kicks in. Also, one thing I really like about the Alky Control kit is that the system has many controls. You can control when it kicks in , the ramp of attack and the peak flow. It has either a 2 or 3-bar map sensor (don't remember which) to provide feedback that controls the pump voltage /speed.

If you're not running a meth reliant tune, I would recommend a mix. Your car's already got a safe tune so all you're trying to do is apply a little insurance policy. I have read that water has a greater ability to remove heat than meth and I agree, however, (although I have not heard or read this mentioned) know that it is based on time and the application of the water i.e. how well atomized the water is and how much time it has to do it's job versus how much time it takes. Methanol has a lower flash temp, so I would expect a better guarantee that it has sufficient time to do its job in the short distance and time it has between the point of injection and entering the cylinders. Either way, I would want as little amount of fuel as possible added in this process because it will rob power.

For a meth reliant tune, like I have, I would recommend straight VP (or other high quality) methanol.

Must be nice to want to "tinker" and be able to simply order up a dyno.
Where's your shop?

cobill1972

Have you ever used the Snow Boost Juice? I pretty sure it's a mix. I wasn't sure if the straight meth would harm my system. At one time I saw a thread where it talked about corrosion issues running straight meth and over time damaging the pump. I'll have to do some double checking on that. Until you metioned it about the water and possibly having a greater cooling effect I never thought of it that way. I just thought the mix was to keep cost down. hmmmm

My shop is in Littleton, CO. Mostly we do work for insurance companies, and collision centers such as frame swaps, alignments, engine/tranny R&I's, suspension, alignments, but 70% of our work is diagnostics and restraint system installation. I had to try to justify myself on purchasing a dyno which means I just had to find a reason. lol
Here in Colorado we have Diesel emmisions stations, so to become a testing station you have to have a few things. One a dyno, two a smoke opacity measuring system, and three state certified. Well it happens to be that a Mustang MD250 hd system can handle that, but you can also add on the a/f meter, weather station, and ignition pick up. It's like killing two birds with one stone. It lets me hide out in the back and keeps me out of my employees hair. I had to just sell it to my wife and I was golden. So even though I'm tinkering it'll still make a little extra coin on the side. I'll put up pictures in my garage section once everythings put into the new place.
Since we are going to put an A&A kit on my wifes corvette now I'm thinking of doing the upgrade to a YSI and throwing it on my car and giving her the V3si. Any bets on if a stock LS6 can handle 850-900 for a while until I switch over? I can just see Mike from east coast performance shaking his head. lol

I'll have to play around with it. It sounds like you have been using HP tuners for a while. In the future I might have to pick you brain on it if you don't mind.

Thanks,
Bill

cobill1972

I'll have to call and talk with them again. The guy I talked to recommended running the boost juice they sale which I purchased enought that I probably stocked up for the year. I'm wondering if it'll change the tune for better or worse if I run straight meth. However I wonder if the water mix adds any addition properties to the quench effect as well. Your thoughts?


Thanks,
Bill

BLOWNBLUEZ06

I remember you telling me about your shop in a phone conversation. I don't remember the occasion, but I spoke with you at length about something I had for sale recently. I am thinking it might have been a TR6060 and diff from an 08Z06. I have another one coming up for sale
in the next few days. No problem on the HPtuners thing.

Blow Torch

Boost juice is 49/51 mix

I had heard the same thing about water having more of a cooling affect,and the meth raised the octane.
I am running a NON-meth reliant tune, and am adding a 50/50 mix to ensure safety, and if it picks up 15-20hp from the cooling affect that's oK, but it was tuned ULTRA safe with the injection system unhooked

0Steve@AandACorvette

Im getting myself an education on meth in this thread.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

The saddest part for Andy is that you're getting paid to hang out here.

0Steve@AandACorvette

You shut your mouth when you're talking to me, boy!

BLOWNBLUEZ06

There goes another one of Andy's hard-earned dollars.

I would tell you to get out in the shop and do something, but we all know there's a reason you're not allowed too close to the cars or the tools.

cobill1972

I'm glad someone else gets picked on lol. I have to hear this from my guys all day long. Hmmm maybe thats one of the reasons I want to hide out in my office or the back of the shop.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

Difference is you're the owner.

Steve's last name is not Green.
Even if it were, I'm not sure Andy would claim him.