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S/C vs turbo

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Old 06-18-2017, 12:54 AM   #1
CPT_Charlie
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Default S/C vs turbo

Putting this question out there to you guys with either setup. I'm getting ready to "pull the trigger" on my upgrade for this year. The build won't actually happen til winter due to medical issues (infection in my total knee replacement discovered in early May...summer shot all to hell), but in the meantime I can acquire the parts. What I have now is a LS3 based 416 which we've pretty much maxed out. We dyno'd 592/540 and one would think I would be content with a 700ish hp car that is wicked, stupid fast, but instead...want more power. Running my MM6 tranny that was beefed up by RKT Performance back in 2013, a Mantic twin clutch, and 393 diff. Already know a piston change is part of this project to reduce the C/R as well as a different cam. In the F/I upgrade I'm looking for a balance between brute power and reliability since it is a daily driver. Can you guys chime in with your setup, drivetrain, dyno numbers, and if you use yours as a DD? I'm not new to F/I cars, but this would be a new venture for me on my Vette.

Even worse all I can do is look at my Vette while she sits in my garage...talk about punishment!
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Old 06-18-2017, 05:44 PM   #2
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You say LS3 based 416...but give few, well no details of that build.

From a cost and practicality standpoint, just stick a centrifugal blower on it. And you may well still be ok on your existing motor with a goal of only 700...but would need details of that motor, fuel to be used etc etc

A&A or ECS seem to be the to most popular kits, entirely up to you though.
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:22 PM   #3
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I'd do a Ysi with 10+ cr but not max out the blower. Something like 3-3.3" pulley would probably put you in the high 800/low 900s at the wheel. That's probably borderline for needing a c6z t6060 + reared to handle the power. Your current clutch would probably be fine
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:43 PM   #4
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I know I have to change the internals (as listed in the OP). With a current C/R of 12:1 it would be pointless to try and just throw a S/C or turbo on it. We know how we're going to do the build. I'm trying to find out who out there has a S/C or turbo car that they use as a dd and if they had to make any changes to their drivetrain as well as their results. I'm looking at the same cost from ECS for a Novi 2200 and all associated parts to get to 850whp or better as I would for a twin turbo setup.
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Old 06-19-2017, 02:16 AM   #5
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Default Here's my spin

I'll just throw out the straight facts first. Turbos will make the easiest power you've ever gotten your hands on. Adding a turbo kit verse a supercharger is night and day where power is concerned. You take the same motor setup add a turbo and dyno, then add a supercharger and dyno, the turbo will make power far easier than the supercharger and with less stress on the motor. That said, be prepared for the nightmare of owning a non-factory engineered turbo system being added to your car. As good as people are at making turbos, you can't get away from the challenges they add by shoving them under your hood. Turbos are not light, so they add a lot of weight to the headers, subsequently the heads. If you think maintenance is fun on your car now, just wait till that turbo system goes in. The other issue, heat. Unlike a supercharger, you have hot not cool piping running all through that engine bay.
The biggest thing to be aware of when you consider a turbo, make sure you have trust worthy company and a damn good tuner; you really want someone who has a lot of experience tuning turbos or you could end up with a disaster of a car. Because turbos tend to kick in so suddenly, especially the bigger the turbo you go with, the turbo lag to full boost can be hell to tune properly, especially for the street. To many tuners only tune turbos for the track and then you're stuck with a turd on the road.
So, here is my personal experience and why I'm even chiming in. I have a turbo race car that is streetable; the car is a monster. I built my car conservatively, not to make low power, no, in order to make the most power with the motor at lower rpms and ease the the power transition before the turbo kicked in. As a result, the car makes so much torque and power, it must have slicks at all time to grip.

As fun as the raw power and torque is for racing, I wouldn't recommend the headaches of the turbo over a supercharger for a street car. I swapped my turbo system for a whippel. I am currently installing a A&A on my c5 Vette but ran a Vortech on my race car before I swapped for a turbo; I wished I would have just gone with a ysi and been done.
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:04 AM   #6
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As far as the OP's goals are concerned, whether turbo or blower is irrelevant, both will easily make the target...and then some...and then some...and then some...

As far as tuning goes, a competent tuner is a competent tuner. Neither is more difficult to tune than the other.

if you're having difficulty with a tuner...take to a proper one !
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Old 06-19-2017, 04:28 PM   #7
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Absolutely, a supercharger and turbo either or will have no problems achieving his desired power goals. I was just saying, if you were to install, tune, and dyno them both at the same boost levels, the turbo will make higher hp and tq numbers at the same boost do to the turbo using waste (exhaust) to power the turbo vs. the drag on the motor from the supercharger riding the crank pulley. Is that enough to sway away from using a blower, no; throw a smaller pulley on it and go with it. Done.

As far as tuning, sorry, I'm going to have to disagree. There just isn't a great turbo tuner on every corner. It is a skilled discipline and technique that not every tuner can handle. Trust me, if you've been on the drag circuit as long as I have, you a million guys jumped into turbo kits for the huge and easy to obtain power only to find out all the headaches of trying to dial them in. Then the next season or two rolls around and what do you see, the car is running a blower or nitrous. And look, I'm not trying to scare you off of a turbo and say no one can tune these cars and they are impossible to drive or use on the street, not true. I'm trying to give useful advise from dealing with all of the power additives. Turbos are a blast, but they are far more challenging than a supercharger, bar-none.

Here's comparative info for turbos) pros: more power and tq at lower boost levels; easy to conceal their existence with a quieter exhaust, easier to scare the hell out of your opponent with its banshee like scream if you don't have a quiet exhaust and dump the waste gate; extremely easy on the motor, turbo is completely unnoticeable and does not change the car's normal or regular driving conditions.
Cons: the heat under the hood is ridiculous and still requires a lot of heat wrap on top of the powder coating; turbos are far more difficult to install and generally require a lot more unreversible alteration to the vehicle; turbos can make passing smog tests harder in some states, not all, but just throwing that out there; turbos generally require bracing/bracketing of some sort to hold them in place in order to keep all their weight off of the header, but bending and shifting of the car's metal and frame still inevitably put unnecessary stress on the headers, subsequently, the header bolts in the heads; turbos typically add a bit more more weight to the car because of all the extra heavy duty piping, maintenance becomes far harder and longer, regardless of the project; turbo lag (only if you get greedy with too big of a turbo); finding a turbo savvy tuner who really knows the ins and outs of catering to the car's needs; lastly, you'll want a high end boost controller (I used the Eboost for many years with success, but I have seen c02 driven boost controls for high boost applications).

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Old 06-19-2017, 04:54 PM   #8
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^^^^^^
Are you certain you even have a turbo car? LOL I've had 3 turbo street cars and two turbo race cars. My current streetcar is daily driven in the summer months and I haven't had an issue with it in years. It's a 1999 front mount turbo that I fabbed myself, exhaust to the bumper. With an extremely mild tune it's a single digit daily driver. I've never even heard of somebody going from a turbo to nitrous or a blower. I'm going to leave it at that. I couldn't even finish reading the rest of your post. LOL
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:01 PM   #9
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OP....... I have a 1999 front mount turbo charged convertible. I fabbed the turbo kit up myself and it has a nasty T4 framed custom spec turbo from Jose at forced induction. The car is daily driven in the summer and fall months on E85. It has a FLT level 6 built 4L65E. At 15lbs it made right at 700 RWHP and runs a single digit through the 1/4 mile. The motor is a 6.0 bored out to 390 in. fitted with all the good stuff. The motor runs at about 210 on a warm day and the trans is below 200 in bumper to bumper traffic. It has a 3 rib ZO6 3.42 differential and factory C5 half shafts. It obviously also has plenty of supporting mods.

I've never had a blower car. I prefer the quiet stealth of a turbo

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Old 06-19-2017, 06:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junk c5 View Post
^^^^^^
Are you certain you even have a turbo car? LOL I've had 3 turbo street cars and two turbo race cars. My current streetcar is daily driven in the summer months and I haven't had an issue with it in years. It's a 1999 front mount turbo that I fabbed myself, exhaust to the bumper. With an extremely mild tune it's a single digit daily driver. I've never even heard of somebody going from a turbo to nitrous or a blower. I'm going to leave it at that. I couldn't even finish reading the rest of your post. LOL
Wow, aren't you a ball of menstruating happiness. Yup, I've got a hand built compound boost 03 cobra with 1500 rwhp that is a single digit 1/4 mile daily driver; I have a 91 fox body with a 102mm single turbo that's a single digit 1/4 mile car that is a daily driver, a 2016 z07, and a 99 corvette with an A&A supercharger. All of my cars are daily drivers, withstand Texas (104+ degree summers), and all pass emissions. So, yeah, I have some experience with turbos and superchargers.

I'm curious what your disagreement with me is? Turbos aren't hot? Ok, go crank it up and grab a hand full of that piping. They don't force the altering, cutting, or removing of more parts from your car than a supercharger; you've got a hole in the side of your car. Maybe it is the fact of how easy it is to work on the car because of all the room you acquired from adding 15' of thick, bolted, and welded steel piping throughout the car?
You've never even had a supercharger, yet you call me out? Why?

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Old 06-19-2017, 07:19 PM   #11
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Wow, aren't you a ball of menstruating happiness. Yup, I've got a hand built compound boost 03 cobra with 1500 rwhp that is a single digit 1/4 mile daily driver; I have a 91 fox body with a 102mm single turbo that's a single digit 1/4 mile car that is a daily driver, a 2016 z07, and a 99 corvette with an A&A supercharger. All of my cars are daily drivers, withstand Texas (104+ degree summers), and all pass emissions. So, yeah, I have some experience with turbos and superchargers.

I'm curious what your disagreement with me is? Turbos aren't hot? Ok, go crank it up and grab a hand full of that piping. They don't force the altering, cutting, or removing of more parts from your car than a supercharger; you've got a hole in the side of your car. Maybe it is the fact of how easy it is to work on the car because of all the room you acquired from adding 15' of thick, bolted, and welded steel piping throughout the car?
You've never even had a supercharger, yet you call me out? Why?
I didn't say turbos we're hot. I've got a blanket & vented hood that keeps my engine temps plenty manageable so that pretty much negates any heating issues. Nobody has to take the extreme measures I took to get a 55lb turbo front mounted. There are plenty of ways to do twin turbos without cutting, eliminating, relocating, or adding metal. The ONLY thing that's missing from under my hood is the a/c compressor. My previous rear mount build required nothing to be moved or relocated.

"Hole in the side of my car " ? You lost me with that. I assume your referring to exhaust which my car has 3" exhaust to the rear bumper.

15' of tubing throughout the car ? It's got a crossover tube, intake tube and innercooler tubing. Being on E85 I can eliminate the innercooler and 1/3rd of the tubing if I wanted.

I'm challenging your opinion because your steering him in the direction of your preference. Acting like he can't buy or fab a twin turbo kit that requires minimal to no modification which will make well over his targeted
horsepower and yet be extremely reliable with supporting mods.

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Old 06-19-2017, 07:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I didn't say turbos we're hot. I've got a blanket & vented hood that keeps my engine temps plenty manageable so that pretty much negates any heating issues. Nobody has to take the extreme measures I took to get a 55lb turbo front mounted. There are plenty of ways to do twin turbos without cutting, eliminating, relocating, or adding metal. The ONLY thing that's missing from under my hood is the a/c compressor. My previous rear mount build required nothing to be moved or relocated.

"Hole in the side of my car " ? You lost me with that. I assume your referring to exhaust which my car has 3" exhaust to the rear bumper.

15' of tubing throughout the car ? It's got a crossover tube, intake tube and innercooler tubing. Being on E85 I can eliminate the innercooler and 1/3rd of the tubing if I wanted.

I'm challenging your opinion because your steering him in the direction of your preference. Acting like he can't buy or fab a twin turbo kit that requires minimal to no modification which will make well over his targeted
horsepower and yet be extremely reliable with supporting mods.
The whole point of the thread's question was to post personal perspectives from people who have owned both turbos and superchargers.
But, I never once said a turbo wouldn't make the power a supercharger would. In fact, I said the turbo would make more power and easier. Turbos make great power and torque, period. Can't question it, that's why I own them.
But I will reiterate, you are saying yourself, you are having to use a vented hood, a heat shield, and e85 to compensate for heat. You have to use e85, methanol, or something radical enough to offset the heat. If the turbo wasn't hot, we all wouldn't have to put shields, blankets, wrap, etc... on the turbos and piping; so there's no way something that glows orange like the sun isn't going to be hot And need need a cooling suppressant of some sort. Where as I can run a vortech all day and never need anything but 93 octane, that's a difference.
Again, you could eliminate tubing and modify the kit for less piping, but that is just more work you don't have to do with a blower. This is not a knock on turbos, it is just part of owning them.

My goal is not to sway anyone away from turbos, it is to inform people-regarding my personal experience, mind you- of what I've dealt with.

I drive turbo cars on a regular basis and they are a blast. Clearly I like them. But, with that said, there are differences between the installation, maintenance, driving styles, and performance of the two types of power adders. If I'm walking into something, however rare or not an issue maybe, I would still like to know about it.

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Old 06-19-2017, 08:06 PM   #13
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Quote:
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The whole point of the thread's question was to post personal perspectives from people who have owned both turbos and superchargers.
But, I never once said a turbo wouldn't make the power a supercharger would. In fact, I said the turbo would make more power and easier. Turbos make great power and torque, period. Can't question it, that's why I own them.
But I will reiterate, you are saying yourself, you are having to use a vented hood, a heat shield, and e85 to compensate for heat. You have to use e85, methanol, or something radical enough to offset the heat. If the turbo wasn't hot, we all wouldn't have to put shields, blankets, wrap, etc... on the turbos and piping; so there's no way something that glows orange like the sun isn't going to be hot And need need a cooling suppressant of some sort. Where as I can run a vortech all day and never need anything but 93 octane, that's a difference.
Again, you could eliminate tubing and modify the kit for less piping, but that is just more work you don't have to do with a blower. This is not a knock on turbos, it is just part of owning them.

My goal is not to sway anyone away from turbos, it is to inform people-regarding my personal experience, mind you- of what I've dealt with.

I drive turbo cars on a regular basis and they are a blast. Clearly I like them. But, with that said, there are differences between the installation, maintenance, driving styles, and performance of the two types of power adders. If I'm walking into something, however rare or not an issue maybe, I would still like to know about it.

Once again, I never said turbos didn't get hit. Turbo blankets on street cars are as common as fat chicks liking ice cream. E85 is local and plentiful for me but I mainly use it because it's more forgiving over 93 octane for tuning. It has nothing to do with heat management. Also, if it wasn't for the huge unnecessary a/a innercooler, I wouldn't have gotten a hood vent. In actuality, apparently LS motors running just over 220* is normal. I personally prefer my car running closer to the lower 200* range. Finally, I like my Tracspec vent and I'm thinking about adding more...
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:42 PM   #14
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Once again, I never said turbos didn't get hit. Turbo blankets on street cars are as common as fat chicks liking ice cream. E85 is local and plentiful for me but I mainly use it because it's more forgiving over 93 octane for tuning. It has nothing to do with heat management. Also, if it wasn't for the huge unnecessary a/a innercooler, I wouldn't have gotten a hood vent. In actuality, apparently LS motors running just over 220* is normal. I personally prefer my car running closer to the lower 200* range. Finally, I like my Tracspec vent and I'm thinking about adding more...
Heard the same thing. I've still got the stock thermostat and can't get over 200, ehhh. Guess it is what it is. Glad A&A finally lowered their cooler so the stock hood doesn't have to be altered or replaced.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:21 AM   #15
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I've run a variety of street turbo cars since 87, mostly turbo buicks but now a TTix Z06 The kit is expensive and plumbing is a challenge but it puts out nice reliable power that I don't hesitate to take on long trips

I went with a built RPM 4l65 Stage 7 auto swap with Rodney and had much better luck planting 800 rwhp and finally got the car in the 9s on drag radials so I was a happy customer

I did have a turbo manifold crack at the mounting ear flange in back (probably over torqued) and replacing the pass side manifold was no fun but I managed. Also cooked a starter that is very close to the manifold, car was probably running a bit lean and I've since retuned and keep an eye on the wide band when running it hard.

Now I'd like to look at the Huron design as it routes the intake pipes for easier maintenance and the turbos can go a bit larger with the manifold design.

Bottom line for 700 hp though is that a blower will be lots less headache and you can get a tuned package installed for less $$

above 1k hp I'd think more about the turbo system. For me 800 is enough. Be prepared to start thinking about a tranny swap to a t6060
if you run the car really hard or the slush box boogie if you drag it.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:30 PM   #16
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Turbo car with a stock engine vs S/C car with forged engine.


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Old 06-21-2017, 06:12 AM   #17
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Quote:
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I've run a variety of street turbo cars since 87, mostly turbo buicks but now a TTix Z06 The kit is expensive and plumbing is a challenge but it puts out nice reliable power that I don't hesitate to take on long trips

I went with a built RPM 4l65 Stage 7 auto swap with Rodney and had much better luck planting 800 rwhp and finally got the car in the 9s on drag radials so I was a happy customer

I did have a turbo manifold crack at the mounting ear flange in back (probably over torqued) and replacing the pass side manifold was no fun but I managed. Also cooked a starter that is very close to the manifold, car was probably running a bit lean and I've since retuned and keep an eye on the wide band when running it hard.

Now I'd like to look at the Huron design as it routes the intake pipes for easier maintenance and the turbos can go a bit larger with the manifold design.

Bottom line for 700 hp though is that a blower will be lots less headache and you can get a tuned package installed for less $$

above 1k hp I'd think more about the turbo system. For me 800 is enough. Be prepared to start thinking about a tranny swap to a t6060
if you run the car really hard or the slush box boogie if you drag it.
You run an accel system with that setup?
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:30 AM   #18
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You run an accel system with that setup?
no right now it's just a stock ecm tuned with meth injection from julio

it's a bit "meth dependent" so I'm trying to get the $ to complete a project to upgrade to a Haltech S2000.

But the car does ok as is and I'm working on a new engine to do at the same time to give the car more durability at the high hp and run e85
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Old 06-23-2017, 04:46 AM   #19
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Turbo car with a stock engine vs S/C car with forged engine.


But he had a D1 on when he raced you(1400cfm). He took his big F1 blower off after I pulled buses on him with my base ECS 1500(1200 cfm blower).

We would have been a good race, but as things happen, nobody that races has their car together at the same time. I had GTO spares, a brand new Novi 2200, etc to put on the car and turn it up. Ended up selling it all after the elitrical gremlins caught up. That car ripped up some fast cars. Czar told me not to sell it, probably shouldn't have.

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Old 06-23-2017, 04:52 AM   #20
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And btw Ben, we need to find that thread where Josh wanted to fight me after dragging him silly in front of Maddox(D98gt) and Janes(F2 DP build) and you finally baited him to the track. That was hilarious. I seriously thought he wouldn't show.
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