Question for Vettrdstr
Drifting
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From: If you can see the car behind you, your not going fast enough
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (lplott)
There is a send mesage button under everyones name... Cool tool... You know when you use your brain a little, everything seems cooler! :cheers:
Supporting Vendor
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From: http://www.mphparts.com 800-364-1975
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (NJ99FRC)
There is a send mesage button under everyones name... Cool tool... You know when you use your brain a little, everything seems cooler! :cheers:
Besides, I'd like to get more information on fixing the PCV system since I need to do this mod soon, so it's good that this was posted instead of IMed.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,251
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (diynoob)
"That's not too cool man -- the guy above only has 78 posts and most likely his only exposure to this particular forum software is here on corvetteforum.com.
Besides, I'd like to get more information on fixing the PCV system since I need to do this mod soon, so it's good that this was posted instead of IMed."
Ditto!
:lurk:
[Modified by drcoffee, 6:26 PM 2/12/2004]
Besides, I'd like to get more information on fixing the PCV system since I need to do this mod soon, so it's good that this was posted instead of IMed."
Ditto!
:lurk:
[Modified by drcoffee, 6:26 PM 2/12/2004]
Team Owner
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From: San Jose/Bear Valley CA
CA Events Coordinator
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (lplott)
hey Lonnie, I actually installed the one way check valve from McMaster Carr All it is... is a Ball Cone Check Valve. The measurements are 1/4" F X 1/4" F. What you do is to disconnect the PVC valve from the side of the TB, relocate the valve to the line on top of the rocker arm cover, then 90 deg the thing to the TB. You will need fittings to screw into the check valve. Then use fuel line and hose clamps to hook up the one way check valve to the TB again. When you are driving off boost the PVC valve works like before, once you go to boost the check valve does not let the air back into the block
Look in the sig pic and you will see it to the RH side of the Throttle Body. Funny thing is that I have an extra new one sitting on my desk and I am looking at it now. Boosting the crank case is not a good thing and this will take care of it for you. :yesnod:
VR :cheers:
[Modified by vetterdstr, 8:02 PM 2/12/2004]
Look in the sig pic and you will see it to the RH side of the Throttle Body. Funny thing is that I have an extra new one sitting on my desk and I am looking at it now. Boosting the crank case is not a good thing and this will take care of it for you. :yesnod:
VR :cheers:
[Modified by vetterdstr, 8:02 PM 2/12/2004]
Team Owner
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From: San Jose/Bear Valley CA
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (vetterdstr)
I will have the car here on Sunday and I will take pics of the PVC anti boost system then post them on this thread.
VR :cheers:
VR :cheers:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,251
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (vetterdstr)
VR,
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Correction: I see the lower vac line is the vac line from the PCV. and the upper line is fresh air to the crankcase.
Is the Brake booster check valve strong enough or is another check valve needed there as well?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 12:26 PM 2/13/2004]
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Correction: I see the lower vac line is the vac line from the PCV. and the upper line is fresh air to the crankcase.
Is the Brake booster check valve strong enough or is another check valve needed there as well?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 12:26 PM 2/13/2004]
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 28,753
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From: San Jose/Bear Valley CA
CA Events Coordinator
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (drcoffee)
Been a while since I have seen my car... so I really cant remember what was done. It looks as though the line that was capped off is now hooked up to a new open line... I will really need to get the car back and see what new things have been changed. Then I can let you know how it is setup.
VR :cheers:
[Modified by vetterdstr, 6:44 AM 2/13/2004]
VR :cheers:
[Modified by vetterdstr, 6:44 AM 2/13/2004]
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (vetterdstr)
I will have the car here on Sunday and I will take pics of the PVC anti boost system then post them on this thread. VR :cheers:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2002
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (diynoob)
That's not too cool man -- the guy above only has 78 posts and most likely his only exposure to this particular forum software is here on corvetteforum.com.
Besides, I'd like to get more information on fixing the PCV system since I need to do this mod soon, so it's good that this was posted instead of IMed.
Besides, I'd like to get more information on fixing the PCV system since I need to do this mod soon, so it's good that this was posted instead of IMed.
:lurk:
[Modified by SideStep, 10:18 AM 2/13/2004]
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,315
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From: Near Jacksonville Fl.
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (drcoffee)
VR,
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 7:46 AM 2/13/2004]
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 7:46 AM 2/13/2004]
Why not just tap into the the air inlet between the air filter and the intake of the blower?
This is how my ATI is set up and I've had "0" problems with it, and it will still evacuate the crankcase under boost.... :D Something that is not done with a check valve in the system. :eek:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,251
Likes: 4
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (corvettebob1)
VR,
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 7:46 AM 2/13/2004]
Guess I'm kinda :confused: why do you need a antiboost valve in your PCV line?
Why not just tap into the the air inlet between the air filter and the intake of the blower?
This is how my ATI is set up and I've had "0" problems with it, and it will still evacuate the crankcase under boost.... :D Something that is not done with a check valve in the system. :eek:
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 7:46 AM 2/13/2004]
Guess I'm kinda :confused: why do you need a antiboost valve in your PCV line?
Why not just tap into the the air inlet between the air filter and the intake of the blower?
This is how my ATI is set up and I've had "0" problems with it, and it will still evacuate the crankcase under boost.... :D Something that is not done with a check valve in the system. :eek:
I'm confused as well, that's why I hope to clear it up here.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,315
Likes: 17
From: Near Jacksonville Fl.
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (drcoffee)
VR,
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 7:46 AM 2/13/2004]
Guess I'm kinda :confused: why do you need a antiboost valve in your PCV line?
Why not just tap into the the air inlet between the air filter and the intake of the blower?
This is how my ATI is set up and I've had "0" problems with it, and it will still evacuate the crankcase under boost.... :D Something that is not done with a check valve in the system. :eek:
In theory that is accurate. But the air bridge between the MAF and SC will have serious vac pressure almost always and this will power-vent the valve cover on the air inlet nipple sucking all the oil layden crank fumes thru the compressor and into the intercooler and into the intake ultimately reducing the octane of the charge in the cylinder, leading to poor ignition. You need a heavy duty check valve between the intake and PCV because the PCV valve is not sufficient to stop the boosted air, leading to boost pressure in the crankcase and seal failure.
I'm confused as well, that's why I hope to clear it up here.
On my '99 is see a similar setup as yours. I have the two Vac ports on the TB as you do. The silver upper port vents the crankcase. The lower one that you have the new check valve on powers the brake booster. What did you do with the crankcase line. The upper line on your car seems to have a solid metal line where I have only a nipple that has a rubber tube that goes to the forward nipple on the valve cover. Would I need two check valves?
:confused: Or did you just plug the upper vac port with a bolt?
Thanks
[Modified by drcoffee, 7:46 AM 2/13/2004]
Guess I'm kinda :confused: why do you need a antiboost valve in your PCV line?
Why not just tap into the the air inlet between the air filter and the intake of the blower?
This is how my ATI is set up and I've had "0" problems with it, and it will still evacuate the crankcase under boost.... :D Something that is not done with a check valve in the system. :eek:
In theory that is accurate. But the air bridge between the MAF and SC will have serious vac pressure almost always and this will power-vent the valve cover on the air inlet nipple sucking all the oil layden crank fumes thru the compressor and into the intercooler and into the intake ultimately reducing the octane of the charge in the cylinder, leading to poor ignition. You need a heavy duty check valve between the intake and PCV because the PCV valve is not sufficient to stop the boosted air, leading to boost pressure in the crankcase and seal failure.
I'm confused as well, that's why I hope to clear it up here.
And the line is before the MAF sensor right behind the air filter.
I think your running the risk of more engine damage with a check valve because your not venting the crankcase when it needs it the most under boost.
Back in my drag racing days we used to run the PCV line down to the header collector to evacuate the crankcase at WOT.
Unless you have excessive blowby I would look at plumbing it into the air intake right behind the air filter.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2003
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (corvettebob1)
I'm not going to quote the previous post as it is getting long.
When I refer to Vac pressure I mean "negative pressure". If you suck the vapors into the intake with the suction that the blower can produce, you will draw vapor, liquid, etc down that line. I would think you would not want to risk ingesting oily crank vapors into the engine when you need clean air-fuel mix at WOT. I am wrong here? I have a NA car right now and the draw thru the air cleaner is pretty strong. The SC would certainly best that. Besides that, the crankcase gases will leave an oily mess thruoghout the IC, intake, etc. It would be best to vent it out of the engine altogether.
If we are worried about crankcase pressure (positive boost) then a breather on the oil filler tube will work well. But this may make any vac of the crankcase null and void.
Crud! :banghead:
What works best? Stock install instructions with the Procharger is wrought with issues so the stock instructions are not reliable. I'm sure Andy will help me thru this issue when the time comes.
[Modified by drcoffee, 1:49 PM 2/13/2004]
When I refer to Vac pressure I mean "negative pressure". If you suck the vapors into the intake with the suction that the blower can produce, you will draw vapor, liquid, etc down that line. I would think you would not want to risk ingesting oily crank vapors into the engine when you need clean air-fuel mix at WOT. I am wrong here? I have a NA car right now and the draw thru the air cleaner is pretty strong. The SC would certainly best that. Besides that, the crankcase gases will leave an oily mess thruoghout the IC, intake, etc. It would be best to vent it out of the engine altogether.
If we are worried about crankcase pressure (positive boost) then a breather on the oil filler tube will work well. But this may make any vac of the crankcase null and void.
Crud! :banghead:
What works best? Stock install instructions with the Procharger is wrought with issues so the stock instructions are not reliable. I'm sure Andy will help me thru this issue when the time comes.
[Modified by drcoffee, 1:49 PM 2/13/2004]
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From: San Jose/Bear Valley CA
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Re: Question for Vettrdstr (drcoffee)
I'm sure Andy will help me thru this issue when the time comes.
VR :cheers:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,315
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From: Near Jacksonville Fl.
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (drcoffee)
OK on your NA car you have the highest vac at idle or cruise about 18" of vac but at WOT it drops to almost 0" but still has some vac.
Now on your boosted car you are drawing off a 3" dia pipe with a 3/8 or smaller orifice parallal to the intake charge.
You may draw some small amount of vapors out of the crankcase but I bet the most you will do is reduce some pumping loss's. :cool:
In a healthy engine without excessive blowby the following is true. The amount of air flow out of the crankcase is directly porportional to the amount of air flow across the TB same as a NA engine.
Vapor or liquid can only be drawen up the line by air flow, if your rings are sealing correctly there will be little or no air flow.
And I have 14,000 miles on my ATI and had the airbridge off last week for installation of headers and it was clean as a whistle......
If it ain't broke don't fix it!!! :D :)
Now on your boosted car you are drawing off a 3" dia pipe with a 3/8 or smaller orifice parallal to the intake charge.
You may draw some small amount of vapors out of the crankcase but I bet the most you will do is reduce some pumping loss's. :cool:
In a healthy engine without excessive blowby the following is true. The amount of air flow out of the crankcase is directly porportional to the amount of air flow across the TB same as a NA engine.
Vapor or liquid can only be drawen up the line by air flow, if your rings are sealing correctly there will be little or no air flow.
And I have 14,000 miles on my ATI and had the airbridge off last week for installation of headers and it was clean as a whistle......
If it ain't broke don't fix it!!! :D :)
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Pembroke Pines Fla
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (corvettebob1)
Correct me ifI'm wrong,but looking at the above pic.I see the pcv line which has a check valve onit,then attaches to the t/body.Right?
If thats the case then say at 5-6k rpms your making say 8# of boost,the check valve will stop boost from surging into the crankcase.But at high rpm and boost,there is alot more blowby.And in order for the crankcase gases to escape,it has to overcome 8#'s ofboost in order to vent into the t/body.Therefore you still have at least 8# of pressure in the c/case for a short while..I think the best setup is the pcv line venting just after the air filter w/ a oil separator.I'm doing this soon on an ati'd vette and I'll post pics.At high rpms and having a vacuum in the c/case,you get a better seal on the p/rings.
Frank
If thats the case then say at 5-6k rpms your making say 8# of boost,the check valve will stop boost from surging into the crankcase.But at high rpm and boost,there is alot more blowby.And in order for the crankcase gases to escape,it has to overcome 8#'s ofboost in order to vent into the t/body.Therefore you still have at least 8# of pressure in the c/case for a short while..I think the best setup is the pcv line venting just after the air filter w/ a oil separator.I'm doing this soon on an ati'd vette and I'll post pics.At high rpms and having a vacuum in the c/case,you get a better seal on the p/rings.
Frank
Melting Slicks
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From: Tx
Re: Question for Vettrdstr (drcoffee)
I'm tripping out on the picture I'm seeing of VRs current PCV setup. It looks as if the TB nipple goes down to the nipple on the ls6 valley cover. That would boost the crankcase big time. I must be missing something here (or someone just made a mistake hooking it up for the picture). Maybe it is a ported TB and the net result of the tube is just a plug.
I've talked about this PCV stuff in several posts, so you might want to dig around for more info. It bascially comes down to tradeoffs. There is no perfect answer. If you have a motor that does not have much blowby you can get away with the check valve and the basic setup that ATI suggest.
Most people who really run the car hard just removed the entire PCV and vent the crankcase to catch cans. JBsblowc5 said he tired everthing and that is all that would work on a road course (he has had boost on an ls1 longer than just about anyone here).
Every car is different, but I would take off the intake and check for oil in the runners before you make a decision on this. I know for a fact that the PCV was my source of KR, but it could just be that my motor has a lot of blowby. I can't see how any boosted motor with the stock pistons could not have a decent amount of blowby, but I guess it is possible.
[Modified by QuickSilver2002, 1:36 AM 2/14/2004]
I've talked about this PCV stuff in several posts, so you might want to dig around for more info. It bascially comes down to tradeoffs. There is no perfect answer. If you have a motor that does not have much blowby you can get away with the check valve and the basic setup that ATI suggest.
Most people who really run the car hard just removed the entire PCV and vent the crankcase to catch cans. JBsblowc5 said he tired everthing and that is all that would work on a road course (he has had boost on an ls1 longer than just about anyone here).
And I have 14,000 miles on my ATI and had the airbridge off last week for installation of headers and it was clean as a whistle......
If it ain't broke don't fix it!!!
If it ain't broke don't fix it!!!
[Modified by QuickSilver2002, 1:36 AM 2/14/2004]