Tom Steele

On purpose - sort of...

If you don't care to read the long boring version, here's the link to the pictures and video:

http://webpages.charter.net/tsteele93/Michelin1.htm

Here's the deal, I work for a radio station and we do a stunt called Torture Tuesday in which we "torture" our producer each Tuesday. We are willing to take liberties with the day-of-week part of that feature when the right opportunity comes along though. Yesterday, Michelin had Travis Pastrana (Motocross, X-games and now Rally cars) at their proving grounds in Laurens County, SC - just outside of Greenville where we are. They had a sideways challenge on the wet test track.

That is a 1/2 mile concrete circle, with sprinklers all the way around.

Our producer is NOT a car guy. He has a 1995 Honda Accord and thinks it is great and will drive it for another 10 years if he can. He doesn't like driving with me because it scares him...

First thing they did was ask, "If you could only replace two tires on a car, would you replace the fronts or the backs?" I promptly answered, "Front." They said I was wrong and proceeded to show me why. (TECHNICALLY I was right, PRACTICALLY they were right.)

First we went out in a Camry with FULL REAR tread and HALF FRONT tread. It would go around 50-51 mph and then it would understeer. As soon as it started plowing, you would lift throttle and it would catch. It got to where I could go around the track one handed, talking and not even looking straight ahead and stay at 50-51 mph. I never spun that car.

Then we get in an identical Camry with FULL FRONT tread and HALF REAR tread. Here's where I was right. I could get to about 54-55mph before there were problems. But here's why I was wrong: When it DID come loose (and it DID), you were 360 degrees around guaranteed every time no matter what. There was NO warning and NO saving it.

So, technically, once you found the limit, you could drive a car with better tires on the FRONT around the track faster. You could watch the speedo and go 53 all day and win a race so to speak. BUT for daily driving, the understeer car is FAR SAFER and more predictable. I spun the good-front bad-rear car several times! I understand now why manufacturers prefer a little understeer built into a car. (Of course NEUTRAL would be nice, wouldn't it?)

The Lexus had a lot more hp, stiffer suspension and rear wheel drive. I spun it quite a bit. But by my last lap, I was able to get sideways and recover, even going a good distance in a controlled slide at a time, but still sometimes I would end in a spin, and sometimes I would end in a recovery, but I couldn't keep it sliding forever.

Then came the fun. The Z06 had a full roll cage, Wilwood brakes, and racing seats. It was even harder to slide. They had Pilot SX Sports on it and if I kept it below the slip point (and even a little into the "slips when you hit a deep spot in the water" mph-range) it was very easy to drive. But trying to forcibly slide it was tough. You are going around 60 mph and you are cranking the wheel and applying throttle on a wet road. It is not a natural thing to do. Plus, although you can spin out safely, they do get tired of it if you seem to be totally out of control, and they hauled a few of the guys in after bad off-track spinouts. So you can't just drive like an idiot.

Again, by my last lap, I had the Z06 where I could SOMETIMES keep it in a slide for a little bit and I could force slides and save it. My instructor told me that most people could not recover the slides I was recovering, but you always feel like he is just being nice. It is HUMBLING. I think the worst part is that you don't get enough seat time to get good, and I think that if I had a whole day I'd probably be able to catch it. In 4-5 laps I was getting a LOT better. But as it stood, I just left the track feeling like a loser! <grin>

Unfortunately, I had a new digital camera which I had never used the video on before, so I only got one short video, but it gives you an idea what we were doing along with the picture.

Interesting side note. I was chatting with the test-drivers/engineers and we were talking about tires (duh) and I mentioned that I liked the MXX3 and thought it was the best tire they ever made. They laughed and said they hear that a LOT. They told me to check out the new Pilot Sport PS2.

Anyway, I figured with the Corvette some of you guys might enjoy the pictures and information. Another interesting thing, there wasn't a huge difference in speed around that track with the Camry and the Z06. Water is a great neutralizer!

CUlookin

love those pics!! How's you get the car out of the grass? Was it muddy or could you just drive it out?

CUlookin

love those pics!! Looks like a LOT of fun!!! So how's you get the car out of the grass? Was it muddy or could you just drive it out?

Tom Steele

That wasn't me!!! I never went that bad off-track. That car actually rolled backwards up a hill towards us a good bit. We didn't get pics of that because we were moving! Not that there was any danger, we had a guard rail and he was only moving 5-10mph by then.

He was able to keep it rolling and get it back on track.

The test track looks surprisingly "care-free." But in reality, the cars have a STRONG tendency to follow the track even when they are spinning, and when they get off track, the asphalt is ROUGH and it catches MOST overly loose conditions. I got to where I could often lose it, do a 360 and keep going in the direction I was going. Because I spun so much. The spins were tiring though! I have a sore back and I can only imagine what the poor instructors feel like today.

The concrete on the track is "polished" by their wording. My experience in real life is that concrete is an excellent traction surface and much safer than asphalt in the rain. You could probably do a lot better than 50-60mph on a real road in these conditions and in real life the asphalt would probably be your enemy, not your friend. But they have it set up that way here on purpose.

My worst off-track was in the Z06 but that was just because I didn't want to get stuck. I went off at about 9pm on the track from where those pics were being taken. But I went off forwards and only about a car width off. But I drove off farther to avoid mud. My instructor wasn't upset about it and I got to do more laps.

They brought that guy in right then!

Stock Man

Sounds like you guys had a blast. It would be nice to see a longer movie of it. Thanks for sharing

devo

Very

Looks like a FUN time!

are the PS2's out?

I am riding on pilots and I love them

Vette Freak

Looks like a blast

MagikDraggin

Nice write-up Tom; very interesting.

I did note your comment about the fellow with the '95 Accord. I have a '95 Accord 2 dr sport coupe, 4 banger, front-wheel drive and completely stock with about 150k on it now.

I also have an '04 Camry, so I took quite a personal interest in your track results.

I found it rather interesting that the Z06 was only a few mph better than the Camry around the track. I'm not sure if that is saying a lot for the Camry or that the Z06 is not all it's trumped up to be.

My own personal observations regarding the three vehicles I have, (the vette is an '04 coupe with std suspension upgraded with Z06 sway bars) are as follows, just for conversation and not to start an argument or flame war:

There is an offramp here that I love to take as fast as possible, especially when I have some fool in a 6000 lb SUV trying to act like a Dale Ernhart Jr wannabe by tailgating me around the ramp.

The posted speed recommended speed limit is 45 mph. I can take it before any signs of under or over steer in the Camry at 55 mph. In the Accord, I can take that ramp easily at 70 mph. And in the Vette, the best I can crowd it is 71, maybe 72 mph.

On wet pavement, the Accord will easily outcorner and outtrack the other two with no sweat.

In a straight line however......it's no contest; the Vette rules!

I know this isn't what you guys want to hear, but I am really amazed at the handling ability of that 10 yr old rice-burner. We used to have a 4dr Accord and it was essentially worthless when it came to going around on ramps fast.

The suspension on a Camry is simply too mushy and the overall center of gravity too high for it to be considered in any sort of cornering contest. Again, in my opinion. I'm surprised it managed to turn in speed times that were within 5 mph of the Z06.

Like I said, that isn't really saying much for the Z06, is it?

Flak jacket on and ready for incoming

yellow01

I had an off-track excursion (accidental) in the rain once...fun once you realize everything is ok, but let me tell you flying across the grass sideways is BUMPY!!! Definitely learned the value of a helmet (I was wearing one of course and it smacked the window sill numerous times while I was bumping around)

Wet traction is such a funny thing - so dependent on surface and tires. Out at MSR here in Fort Worth the wet line is VERY different than the dry. The track is so smoot and polished on the dry line there's nowhere for water to go and it is SLICK.

Typically you do your heavy braking in the wet off the dry line, but sooner or later you have to cross it to get through the turn and wow what a difference in the track surface and traction...

SLO VETTE

my z is horrendous in the rain--still have new goodyear f1's. all has to do with tires i guess. also i can drive better/safer in downpour when lugging the engine--less torque going to the wheels, perhaps?

Tom Steele

Don't get me wrong, his is stock and he just drives it. My point was that he isn't a car guy.

It was interesting how much fun you could have with the Camry. And it was very interesting HOW BIG a difference half-tread tires made on front or back. These weren't bald, they were truly half-tread.

There was no cage or safety equipment on the Camry or Lexus, so I got the impression that Michelin believed that there was no chance they would flip on the track. Travis got one rear wheel off the ground, I have a pic of that.

Me too. Keep in mind, that the Lexus was similar as well. My feeling - and this is based on my half-day doing this, is that WATER is a great neutralizer. I have a sneaky suspicion that in the rain, a better handling car amounts to much smaller increases in speed than in dry. As you bring the coefficient of friction down, it brings the spread down. A lot.

Also, keep in mind a half-mile true-circle is a fairly tight turn. Probably like a well designed on/off ramp but with NO banking whatsoever.

We also rode in a big flatbed truck and it was pretty much in the 50mph range for it too, if I recall correctly.

I've heard a lot of things that challenge conventional wisdom about tires from the aerospace industry. One being that tread design is almost nothing compared to speed, width, air pressure and weight on the tire. You wanna go faster without hydroplaning in the rain, turn up your air pressure and add weight.

I believe skinny tires are better in the rain. They maintain contact with the surface better.

No war, but I think you are misunderstanding the concepts a little. As you approach the limits, it takes BIG changes to make LITTLE improvements in handling. It is definitely not a linear curve.

And also recall that 5 mph adds up FAST at a track. Lets say the difference between 60 mph (:30 seconds per lap on a 1/2 mile track) and 55mph would be significant in a short time.

Also, the Z06 had been abused hard and its tires were not 100%, I don't know how much difference that would make.

MagikDraggin

I am glad you took my response in the stride that it was intended to be taken. That's why I said "for conversation and not to start an argument or flame war", because I
was certain there was more to what you were saying than simply going fast around a curve.

Thanks for your reasoned and informative response back.

NVTHIS

This must have been at the Laurens Michelin Test Track! My Dad used to work for MARC ( michelin research ) and would carry prototype tires there for them to test. They have alot of high powered cars and really do some testing on them there at laurens,lol. It sounds like you had fun. BTW, cool pics!

mqqn

Hi Tom -

Looks like fun! thanks for the vid and pics link

best regards -

mqqn

~SPEEDY~

wpdjoey

Vetteman Jack

Thanks for the video. You must have had a blast.

big hoss 98C5

Looks fun even more fun when it's not you're car .

Dope

In the rain, it's all about tires. Skinnier, full tread, designed to channel water tires is what you want.

We all know that if it had been dry, the Z would have smoked all of the other cars with ease.

Dope

Tom Steele

Oh yeah! Especially the tires. It must be REALLY NICE to have a warehouse full of tires and people ready to install them for you too!

The driver, Stephen Calder, took me onto the inside dry track (which I assume, but could be wrong here, is 1/4 mile) and proceeded to roll down the windows and go around that track sideways at 65+ mph.

It was interesting to watch him. I'm all arms when I'm saving (or losing) the car. He uses his wrists and literally "tosses" the steering wheel around. At one point he finally pushed too hard, too long and we went around in a 180 and as soon as we were rolling backwards he put it in first and dumped the clutch and proceeded to go sideways around the other way.

One thing that was particuarly cool was unlike most tracks I have read about/been to, they were not uptight about spins and didn't even get too upset about off-track excursions. They did haul the Z06 driver (from Speed Channel I think - this should be on an episode of something, look for Travis Pastrana) in after his big spin. But he went out again later. If you spun that bad, they made you do a "walk of shame" and you had to return to the exit road via the outside asphalt at slow speed. It was a relaxed, laid back feeling.

To the poster who said it must have been the Michelin test track in Laurens, that is correct. Their headquarters is in Greenville and we did a promotion of Travis being there to sign autographs and we also did the sideways challenge.

Travis was actually decent at the challenge, but the Michelin test drivers get to do it so often that they can just drive around the wet track in full power oversteer over and over again without losing it. I was in awe and envy.