LF97C5Vette

Well, this weekend I had an interesting scare, and I decided to do a little experimenting with my car and it's TCS system.

My scare was - when exiting a roundabout I started to accelerate slightly on the straight. But the back end kicked out (amazingly easy to do w/ the 4.10 gears and GY RunCraps) which was no big deal - I just steered into it and woulda pulled through the oversteer. However, my Traction Control System activated and WAY Overreacted! Completely pulling the throttle sending the car whipping back the other direction! So I steered into that, which was an even steeper angle of over steer. (At this point I knew I was screwed...) and sure as rain the final backlash of TCS kicked in sending me into a complete 180 where I stopped about 1ft from the sidewalk facing the wrong direction... I turned around and drove off, thankful for a damage free incident...

So my experimenting was in a massive wet parking lot. I found an adequate area that I would use to make a left hand turn which would be similar to regular left turns I would make on the street. (No Curbs or anything to hit nearby) I would approach the turn at about 30-35 start the turn and kick in a little throttle induced wheel spin. Then the goal was to control the 'drift' through the corner on my own, OR recover traction and finish the turn w/ TCS.

So with TCS OFF I would enter the turn at 30-35 and break 'em loose. I found it was VERY easy to control the car, in even quite a steep angle of oversteer. I always felt like I had the option to gently lift and straighten out the car, or power through w/ a sick Drift angle. Either way the car felt very in control and easy to drive through corners Even while slipping the tires all over the place.

HOWEVER, with TCS on it was a completely different story. I would enter the corner and induce wheel spin, as soon as the car got a little angle to the oversteer the TCS would freak out and kick it HARD back the other way. Usually I could steer into that further and recover from the fishtail caused by TCS but sometimes I would spin out! It was a LOT harder to stop fishtailing, or spinouts with TCS on.

There was a definite 'Point of No Return' with TCS on, where no matter what I did, if I hit a certain drift angle and TCS fired, I was going to spin out, period. Whereas with TCS off, I could get pretty steep (beyond the point of no return w/ TCS) and still safely recover.

My question is - what’s the point of TCS if its so over reactive it's going to kill me? It seems like the TCS is only good on straights, but in a corner it itself is the reason I spun out in exiting the roundabout. I firmly believe I can control the oversteer to a degree in my car, but TCS doesn't allow that. And this weekend there isn’t a doubt in my mind that the TCS was the sole cause of my spinout on a public road! (Please don’t argue w/ me on the details of this point. I understand that my spinout was my fault completely, but what I mean is that I could control it w/o TCS, whereas with TCS I Spun out. Therefore the TCS is the sole ‘indirect’ cause of my Spinout… heh)

Anyone else know of any TCS issues? Do I need updated firmware, or something? Maybe there’s a sensor bad on my car that gives bad data to my TCS system?



Dan

nickolbag

Interesting. I drive like a grandpa unless I'm at the track so I've never had any incidents with TCS.

thrasher64

I am assuming the TCS = Active handling right? (Im a vette newbie) I will have to test this.

pentavolvo

on our 01 ive never had this problem i once did just the same actually took a left pretty hard it was wet tcs and ah came on and kept the car very straight

gpracer1

Its because you have a 97-00.
That is why.
My 00 was like that. Too much TC.
My 01, I can drift around corners nicely with the TC on. It only comes on if you really spin em too much. A world of difference between the first and second generation TC/AH.

conversekidz

TCS is a helper, not a cure all for bad driving.

1stvette@60

Sounds like it was the stability control, more then the traction control that was acting to straighten you out. It brakes one rear tire to straighten you out when you get around too far. The traction control mainly shuts down the throttle to keep the wheels from spinning. I know you mentioned this also.
You did not mention that you had it in "competetive driving mode". You get this in the first generation A/H by coming to a stop and holding the A/H button down for five seconds. "Competitive Driving" is displayed on the DIC as long as it is on.
This disables the traction control , but leaves the stability control on. This is basically the best of both worlds, lets you spin and drift, but will straighten you out if you get too far out of shape.
Since you never mentioned this, I assume you weren't using it;
If that's the case, give it a whirl.

LF97C5Vette

First of all - oversteer is not bad driving if it's intentional, it can be controlled - and there is a technique to it. I understand it's not a cure, but with a 300+ HP RWD car the TCS should expect oversteer and not over react.

I have a '97 C5. There is no Active Handling or Competetive Driving Mode. So no - the only thing to cause the problem was the Traction Control by cutting the throttle it started a fish tail that would not have happened otherwise.


Dan

Jet-Jock

LF97C5Vette

I should add - I have the F45 Active Suspension package with Real Time Dampening. The RTD module is currently not functioning so my shocks are on their softest setting, my vehicle is limited to 80mph and my RTD module is "NO COMM" with the BCM. That was the case with my spin out and all my experiments. I'm not sure if the RTD plays any part in the computers Traction Control decisions.

However, I did notice that TCS seemed to be a little over reactive even back when my RTD was working - but i never experimented until now...

(Got C6Z06 shocks and C5Z06 sways waiting to be installed shortly.)


Dan

Jim2003

The TC (ASR its real name) on my 97 Z-28 was like that, it came on too quick and really jerked you around. My 03 vette has the 2nd generation AH/TCS and they are much more refined and allow for more driver input.

As has been stated: AH/TCS will not cover bad driving decisions nor defy the laws of physics.

mistermog

I have an 00 w/ AH/TCS. I have noticed sometimes it kicks in and way over reacts and others it kicks in and does exactly what it should have.

Good question as to why, and I know that 2nd gen was completely reconfigured, but I think it might be more factors than just year

LF97C5Vette

Yup - my point with testing it with TCS disabled was to show that the oversteer i induced was recoverable and that I wasn't doing anything beyond my or the car's capability to correct. Also no 'drifts' that defy the laws of physics were conducted during this test... lol


Are their ways to upgrade to a Gen 2 system easily or is it not worth it?


Dan

Mr. Azrael

I have noticed in my years of driving that each car will have their own characteristics while driving, that is why seat time is often the most important component of getting to know your car.

After having driven a F-Body for a few years the Corvette is a whole different animal. With the Camaro you had to steer it through Oversteer, where as the Corvette tends to right itself; causing a few Vette owners I know to learn the hard way what over-correction can do.

I usually drive in Competition Mode with the TCS off and AH on.

I have the same feeling that I did with the Camaro's ASR, that it actually makes the car feel less safe. This is because it is designed to compensate for a driver who does throw their car around; so when some of us who have been to SCCA events, the track, and are used to high speed, high stress driving, get in it is usually easier for us to drive through a loss of traction than rely on the GM patent answer.

cadallante87

Is it possible that the gear change is playing tricks on the TCS. After I did my 3:42's I had the exact same issue. I luckily got out of it without any damage. Traction control was on and I was going into a minor corner at 50 mph. Coming out of the corner I gave it a little gas to make it thru a changing light. Tires chirped on dry pavement and instantly swung sideways. Pulled it back the other way and slowed it down. Traction control made it harder to recover thats for sure. I've purposely done worse on wet pavement w/ traction off and recovered perfectly. Only thing I can think of besides agressive tcs is the ground was very cold.

flyin c5

I have an o4" I drive with it off because when it ingages I feel like I lose control.

Black C5 Z06

It's because you don't have active handling. Active Handling would never have let you even get close to doing that. Man, where is this awesome parking lot you're talking about? I wanna find it!!!!

jbauch357

I would be willing to bet the inactive RTD has something to do with it. Maybe too much correction in the current state will be just the right amount after the new suspension parts...

nmp27

After I got my Z I piddled around with it at slower speeds just to see what the car was capable of, the I was brousing the forum one day and see where someone said, TCS/AH is good, just dont let it play GOD for you, so after that, I've changed my outlook as to what it will get me out of..

LF97C5Vette

I see your point. But my thought was it at a minimum shouldn't make any situation worse. I can see getting in a situation that w/ or w/o these systems you're screwed. But if i'm in a situation that i'm otherwise capable of controlling myself, those systems should only make it easier for my to recover, and not actually make my situation more Dire! LOL

jbauch357,
Do you mean the Traction control system actually relies on data from the Real Time Dampening module to function correctly, and that it's actions may be out of whack because of my inactive RTD?

Or do you mean the corrective measures taken by Traction control don't have the intended effects because of inactive RTD (they get worse because the TCS assumed shocks were working)




Dan