Zan186

Umm, is this a serious question? Of course I would take a Viper over a Vette. Although the Corvette is far more refined and comfortable, it is no where near as exotic and sexy as a Viper. Not to mention that a V 10 can put down more horsey's with mod's than a V8. Simple Greater Displacement rule!

Corvette's are really nice car's but everyone and their brother owns one. Porshe is almost as bad. In certain area's they are a dime a dozen. Viper's are rare much like Ferrari's and Lambo's.

As for being uncomfortable cars? Well it is designed for racing, not traveling across the country! Hell even a Corvette is uncomfortable for long trips.

As for cost? lol Yeah Corvette's are much cheaper, but then that allows more people to buy them.
Ever wonder why certain places the taxes are high and it keeps the rift raft out?

When I drive my Final Edition Gen II Viper heads turn and I gotta play 20 questions at the gas pump. When I drive the Vette I get a few looks, but that is about it. Vette I can park and not worry too much about it. The Viper I keep an eye on or only out of sight for 5 minutes!

Road machine

Heat problems in the Z06? No way unless someone took off all of your heat shields. I have driven my car on 90+ degree days hard at the track without cooking my leg.
Hate traction control? In my oppinion the guys that say that traction control is dangerous are trying to convince us mere mortals that they are super drivers.(no need for artificial assistance from a computer that can make 1000 adjustments faster than a mere mortal can think of passing gas) Unless you don't know how to drive a car with antilock brakes or traction control (such as pumping the brakes with antilocks etc.) there is no way that you could get the traction off the line or out of a turn like you do with traction control set to competition mode. The reason that cars with alot more hp than the Z06 aren't that much faster than the Z06 is because of the traction control. No matter how much power you have, if you can't get it to the road, you just have a drift car. The traction control in the Z06 will apply brake to one wheel if it starts to spin. How would the super driver accomplish this? I guess the super driver can reach back with one hand and slow that spinning tire while still steering with the other hand and all while talking on his cell phone (non hands free)and typing on his laptop. Although traction control cannot change the laws of physics, it will save our bacon way sooner than you can get in over your head in trouble.
I just recenlty drove a 2005 Viper. It was a fun car and a fast car, but when I stepped on the gas like I do with my Z06 I felt like I was on snow. The back end went south as I tried to go east. Alot of smoke alot of noise. Probably looked impresive from outside, but I didn't get pushed back in my seat like in my Z06. Stopping was also not very impresive, but the viper is a heavier car. Corner handling was pretty good but it should be with 3 more inches of rubber on the road, but when it lets go it is unpredictable. I was pretty tired after my test drive, which may be a good thing (I could use a workout once in a while) but I will definitly keep my Z06.

Zan186

So what you are basically saying is you are all for a car that drives itself, and you would rather sit in the passenger seat? I take it you drive an automatic as well so that the system can change the gears for you as well. I mean the computer can determine when to shift much better than a mere human. So the only thing you really are doing is steering. Kind of takes all the joy out of driving now doesn't it. Why settle for a 2 seater corvette, why not just buy a Cadillac Escalade then?
If you are spinning wheels on a Viper that is brand new, you need to learn how to drive a bit better. You don't have to be a super racer to get a good launch in a high torque vehicle. You just have to get a feel for the car. Isn't the whole idea of having a sports car or a race car to drive it? Not have it drive itself? You think about that and think about the future of technological advancements. Now it is traction control, next year it will be steering control, next you will be a passenger in your sports car and just imput your destination!
Not me! I want to drive the car, where everything is manual. ABS is nice and makes the car much more able to drive to the limits, but the old manual brakes is much more of a challenge.

Twil1ght

That's absolutely not true. I wish we were closer as I could demonstrate that one for you really easily.


An expert driver cannot do this - and doesn't need to.

EV2DEMON

Just curious, have you ever actually driven a car, any car, on a race track? I'm really confused, especially since Competition Mode turns the traction control off and only allows the ASM to step in when it senses too much yaw, which does nothing for traction off the line or out of a turn.

I know my car is faster with TC and ASM turned completely off. I find competition mode to be intrusive when pushing the car hard. If that makes you feel inferior, I'm sorry.














Alright, I'm not really sorry.

chiefDave

This is a great point IMO. I am NOT an experianced driver on a track that does turns, AutoX, HPDE ect... For most of us, AH and TC saves us and the car in a closed track situation, game set match. I am humble enough to know a stock Z06 is more car then I am a driver in a closed track. Yes Sir, I am close and I would love a ride. I bought my car years ago for HPDE and just have not been there yet. Looking foreword to break that cherry this summer and I hope to see you at a local track for a ride, pointers, lessons and some fun. Thanks man!


TC in the 1/4 (I do know all about this) at the track, drag radials, yes, I admit it, I left TC on for a pass:o Car left realy weak, bogged did a 1.8 60, and TC came on every shift. I did not realize the shifts where that hard. Leave TC off @ the drag, but leave AH on just in case some one before you put down some fluid, and that my friends, can ruin your day.

Thanks fellas, good thread!
Dave

Road machine

Thanks to the super drivers who posted back. You guys who don't want to use TC are important to us. Where else will the salvage parts come from?

EV2DEMON

From the poor drivers who refuse to learn to actually drive their cars under the misguided belief that the TC/ASM will save them from anything. At least we know you'll be behind us on the track when you wreck.

kbdub

there was an 02 gts in the parking lot at work this morning. looked very nice. i googled the quarter mile time...11.7 so i won't be keeping up with it stock.

as far as the problems with heat/noise. my vette isn't the quietest ride in the world and you can feel heat coming off the tranny. this can all be fixed with insulation for under $500. if heat and noise are your only argument against the viper it's pretty weak. it's still a badass car and i wouldn't mind owning one minus the ego that comes with them.

Road machine

[QUOTE=EV2DEMON;1559970808]Just curious, have you ever actually driven a car, any car, on a race track? I'm really confused, especially since Competition Mode turns the traction control off and only allows the ASM to step in when it senses too much yaw, which does nothing for traction off the line or out of a turn.

I know my car is faster with TC and ASM turned completely off. I find competition mode to be intrusive when pushing the car hard. If that makes you feel inferior, I'm sorry.


Just curious, do you know how to read? At the top of my post I say that I have driven my Z06 at the track and pushed hard on 90+ degree days.
At those track days the instructors, who have driven Z06s on the track for years, told us all about you super drivers who don't believe in TC and end up with blue paint all over your nice shiny Z06.
I think the term for you and guys like you is technaphobe. Scared of technology and sure that no machine can do something better than a person. As I see that you are a machinist I will give you an example that you may understand. 28 years ago when I started as a machinist I worked on manual bridgeports and lathes. I went to some of the trade shows and saw what was then the new and emerging technology of CNC machining. I immediatly started taking courses in CNC programing and found a job working with CNC machining centers. A lot of the old timers told me over and over how no CNC could be better than a first class machinist(super machinist). When I decided to start my own company 15 years ago my business plan was to have only the latest technology and that was CNC. I have 17 machining centers and CNC lathes today. No manual shops and not many CNC shops can compete with me. We run 55 hr weeks and have for the last 8 years without pause and we run lights out.
You may one day learn that technology can work with you to make you better at the things you do. If you don't you truly will be sorry.

EV2DEMON

Wow. You run CNC machines? I program and operate 5 axis KAPP CNC Profile Grinders everyday, so if you were trying to impress me, sorry it didn't work.

I've got nothing against technology. My car is faster with the TC and ASM turned off. What does technology have to do with the car being faster with the nannies turned off? Afterall, your original argument was that the car couldn't possibly be faster with them off, which has been proven false time and time again.

I'm still trying to figure out how Competition Mode will get you better traction off the line when it doesn't even use the traction control?

Road machine

How could I possibly impress you... your a super driver and aparently a super machinist too. Who exactly has proven time and time again that the car is faster with tc off? Oh I forgot you said it so that is proof... my mistake.
As for competition mode, if you start to slide, your wheels are spinning if your wheels are spinning you are not putting the power to the track. Some side slip is good as it helps you steer through the turn better and faster but too much bleeds speed. The competition mode allows enough yaw to help through the turns but not so much that you loose traction and power to the track. Ah will apply brake to the outside wheel just enough to get rid of excess spin so you can put down as much power as you can within the laws of physics. This is how the instructors explained it to me and it sure made sense to me. That is how I drive at the track, and I am never at the back of the pack. Of course the laws of physics don't apply to superman or aparently to superdriver either.

Oh and by the way... I don't run machines any more I own them. I run a company now. But by the sound of your talents, you won't be running machines for long either... you will be on the world racing circuit showing Shoemaker how to drive.

Zan186

I think you are missing a major point here. First off the Corvette's Traction control does help with racing and it takes out some of the user control issue's. With a decent driver, it really is not hard to back off the gas when you feel some wheel slippage. (and yes you can feel it). For a inexperienced driver TC will help them compete against the experienced driver. But you have to ask yourself, is it you driving or the car? The more the car does the driving the less respect the race community has for you. Same thing with AWD? Like yippee the 911 turbo made great numbers and hardly spun its tire's. Yeah with AWD I can do that each and every time. Where is the challenge in that?
Hence the reason I just bought a Gen II Viper over a Z06. I wanted something to drive not to take ride's in.

As for 11.7 in the Quater mile, yeah with a decent driver on a bone stock car with the crappy Mich sport cups. Just about any Viper you meet on the street is going to have K&N filters and a Cat back exhaust, so they will have closer to 11.1 with just that basic setup. If they actually get it tuned correctly and get a Vec 2/Aem or Motec controller with Kumos or some other decent tire, the car will easily and consistantly be a 10 second car.

Road machine

Just so that you guys can see what the experts say...


Comparison Tests

2003 American Exotics Comparison Test
First Place - 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
By Ed Hellwig
Date Posted 02-19-2003


As impressive as its stats are on paper, feeling those numbers come to life on a challenging road course is the true manifestation of the Z06's brilliance. The Viper may be a tad faster, the Mustang a bit easier to fling around, but neither can even touch the Corvette when it comes to inspiring confidence to push the limits.

Much of the credit goes to its sophisticated stability control system that can alternate between motherly hand-holding or more finely tuned intervention. Keep it in standard mode and even the most inexperienced of drivers can revel in its high-speed capabilities knowing full well that, should they get in over their heads, a combination of individually applied brakes and reduced throttle will corral them back into proper form.

Even more impressive is the system's "competitive" mode that dials up a program more in tune with the aggressive tactics of more experienced drivers. Wheel slip is allowed, but the lateral G sensors still keep a watchful eye on your progress to help correct any temporary directional problems. Slide it through a turn and it won't reign you in until you've reached the very last shred of available traction. The system's ability to walk the fine line between help and interference is remarkable, providing enthusiast drivers with the kind of leeway they crave without sacrificing the safety they need.

But of course this doesn't apply to you if the laws of physics don't apply to you either.

kbdub

that's exactly what i was going to point out
why work when other people can do it for you?

must be boring as hell writing code for a 5 axis all day and running it.

EV2DEMON

So who's Ed Hellwig and what does he do that qualifies him as an expert?

Certainly being a guy who understands technology, like you do, you could understand how a system that works based on a lateral G system would be useles and even intrusive when running race slicks. Sticky tires generate far more grip (and therefore G's) than do the stock tires, therefore the factory ASM settings are way intrusive for a car so equipped, like mine.

BTW, I didn't realize this was about what we did for a living, but since you started.... I own a Speed Shop/Muscle Car Restoration Shop that I work at evenings and weekends that is staffed by 3 people during business hours during the week. The insurance and benefits at my day job are great, especially since I just had a baby, so I'm not quitting just yet. It's also a cush job that's more about quality control than anything.

Just thought you guys might like to know you're not the only ones smart enough to employ people.

Road machine

Here is more from the experts....

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...onclusion.html

Road machine

Actualy the system only uses Gs as one of it's inputs the others are wheel speed differencial, steering input position, and engine load. It must be obvoius to someone as versed in racing as you that the Gs would actualy deminish as traction is lost so that the G reading is not affected by slicks which would increase Gs but by the sudden loss of Gs when traction is lost which is actualy the metric that the system uses.
Article after article that I have read on this car rave about the traction control system. Most of them say that it is one of the most impresive parts of the corvette's handling tools. But I am sure that even all of those articles would not convince you as your mind is made up and no proof by anyone paid to test these cars will convince you otherwise. After all if you were to believe the experts that would make you wrong and how could a superdriver ever be wrong about a car.

By the way employing people isn't what makes you smart keeping them employed is. Talk to me in 15 years when you are still in business and have never missed a payroll.

royski

viper is junk all they got is a motor with 10 cyl they need those extra 2 cyl to try and keep up with a z06 the car it self is also junk its always been and will stay chevy ford and then at the bottom is the junk chr dodge ply veper years ago if you peed next to a chry. product it would not start id be embarested to evev sit in one let alone own one sorry i miss spelled veper ask me if i care vipers are junk at the bottom of the list my list any way some people deserve vipers the bottom feeders sorry i just hate those ugly things

Dennis Wilson

Same here! I`ve been in 115 degree heat going & coming from Las Vegas, & the console is barely warm! Also my Z is the most comfortable car I`ve ever driven on long trips. Only prob. is the wife says its too hard to get in & out of!