Headers with factory mufflers?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 438
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Headers with factory mufflers?
I've been slowly planning out the mods I want to do to my C5 and I've decided on LG Motorsports Street Long Tube Headers along with their catted x pipe. One problem, I live in a condo community and go to work very early. That means my exhaust cannot be overly loud.
I'm happy with the sound of the stock system, so I don't want to change it if it it isn't necessary. Plus, that leaves $500 to $1,100 that I could spend on another mod, like a tune (or buy gas!).
I'm wondering how much performance I'll give up by going this route. I'm getting conflicting information. I've read a lot of posts on this site saying that cat backs have no real gain over the factory system. Then, I read some articles like this one that say I can pick up 10 hp from cat backs:
[http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/0501vet...ust/index.html[/B]
I know better than to believe everything I read.
Which is it? Are cat backs worth the money? How much horsepower will I loose if I don't add the cat backs?
I'm happy with the sound of the stock system, so I don't want to change it if it it isn't necessary. Plus, that leaves $500 to $1,100 that I could spend on another mod, like a tune (or buy gas!).
I'm wondering how much performance I'll give up by going this route. I'm getting conflicting information. I've read a lot of posts on this site saying that cat backs have no real gain over the factory system. Then, I read some articles like this one that say I can pick up 10 hp from cat backs:
[http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/0501vet...ust/index.html[/B]
I know better than to believe everything I read.
Which is it? Are cat backs worth the money? How much horsepower will I loose if I don't add the cat backs?
Team Owner
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From: Kerrville, Texas USA Hook 'em Horns!
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
Another alternative would be to install a set of used Z06 TI cat backs. They can be bought fairly cheap. My friend George has them on his car along with a Blackwing cold air intake and TPIS long tube headers. The car is nice and quiet when cruising but sounds good at WOT. He got a dyno tune and managed to put down 352 rwhp with this set up. 
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,739
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From: Austin, Texas
If you have $500 to spend then install an aftermarket air intake, and have the car tuned. If you have $1100 to spend, then add a cat back into the mix Don't install any cat back for the HP gains, though. You may get a slight gain over stock, but it's really the sound that you want from a cat back. Listen to as many cars, and set ups, as you can before deciding 
That's my car in Cozmo's post, and I love the sound with the headers, and the Z06 Ti cat back. I didn't want too loud while cruising, so the Ti's work perfectly for me. The only problem is that I've lost a couple MPG because I can't keep my foot out of the accelerator!!!
roscoe
Don't install any cat back for the HP gains, though. You may get a slight gain over stock, but it's really the sound that you want from a cat back. Listen to as many cars, and set ups, as you can before deciding That's my car in Cozmo's post, and I love the sound with the headers, and the Z06 Ti cat back. I didn't want too loud while cruising, so the Ti's work perfectly for me. The only problem is that I've lost a couple MPG because I can't keep my foot out of the accelerator!!!
roscoe
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2005
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I hadn't considered the factory titanium system. Great sound and a real weight saver, too.
I guess I'm looking for the most horsepower for my money here. The LG Headers are already a good deal at $1,200 for a complete system. If I can net 30 rwhp out of the long tubes, x pipe and high flow cats, without touching the stock exhaust then I would be perfectly happy.
Are those kind of gains possible with the stock mufflers and no tune?
I was going to have the exhaust installed first and then have it tuned a little later. I have an A4, so I'm very interested in firming up my shift points.
I guess I'm looking for the most horsepower for my money here. The LG Headers are already a good deal at $1,200 for a complete system. If I can net 30 rwhp out of the long tubes, x pipe and high flow cats, without touching the stock exhaust then I would be perfectly happy.
Are those kind of gains possible with the stock mufflers and no tune?
I was going to have the exhaust installed first and then have it tuned a little later. I have an A4, so I'm very interested in firming up my shift points.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,661
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From: Ocean Springs MS
While I have LG Pros, when they were installed by LG with stock mufflers, the tech who tuned it said I might gain another 5 Hp with a very good cat-back. I tried a GHL catback for a while, but it was extremely loud with the headers, and despite advertising, there was a terrible drone around 1500 rpm, right about 70 in 6th. I am now back to the stock 02 mufflers. I agree that an 01 and up Z06 Ti catback would be a good idea if you can find one at a decent price.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,739
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From: Austin, Texas
You might get close to 30RWHP with the headers and x-pipe w/cats. But to fully realize the increased flow of the headers you will want to install an intake. Take a look at the stock intake, and you'll see why.
With both the headers, and intake, these cars can run pretty lean so you'll want to get a tune soon after you get the both of them on there
Welcome to the madness. Keep a close eye on your wallet
With both the headers, and intake, these cars can run pretty lean so you'll want to get a tune soon after you get the both of them on there
Welcome to the madness. Keep a close eye on your wallet
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 438
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You might get close to 30RWHP with the headers and x-pipe w/cats. But to fully realize the increased flow of the headers you will want to install an intake. Take a look at the stock intake, and you'll see why.
With both the headers, and intake, these cars can run pretty lean so you'll want to get a tune soon after you get the both of them on there
Welcome to the madness. Keep a close eye on your wallet
With both the headers, and intake, these cars can run pretty lean so you'll want to get a tune soon after you get the both of them on there
Welcome to the madness. Keep a close eye on your wallet
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,608
Likes: 7
From: the GOCC are everywhere, even back from "band camp"
[QUOTE=Cozmo;1565501047]Another alternative would be to install a set of used Z06 TI cat backs. They can be bought fairly cheap. My friend George has them on his car along with a Blackwing cold air intake and TPIS long tube headers. The car is nice and quiet when cruising but sounds good at WOT. He got a dyno tune and managed to put down 352 rwhp with this set up.
I have a similar setup, using AR headers and have very similar numbers. Noise is very tolerable, and engine really should be tuned after headers.
Bruce
I have a similar setup, using AR headers and have very similar numbers. Noise is very tolerable, and engine really should be tuned after headers.
Bruce
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Thanks for all the great responses. I've read your responses and a few other post on this board, which have left me with a lot of second thoughts.
Here are some thoughts. Please, correct me if I'm wrong! I'm still new at this...
1) Long tube headers should really be tuned, otherwise the vehicle might run lean. (True or False?)
My thoughts: $1,500 for parts + $400 for installation + $400 for a tune is starting to get ridiculous. It's just more money than I'd like to spend, especially since I'm still making payments on this car.
Possible solution: Are there any long tube headers that work well with factory cats, stock h pipe an no tune? A simple bolt on?
I read that the LG Streets can only use rear O2 sensors and I have to purchase a new set of O2 sensors. I don't like that for many reasons I won't mention here. I'd rather find another brand that simply bolts on and uses the stock O2 sensors.
I'm starting to think that long tube headers are simply out of my price range. I might just get a tune to firm up the shift points and leave it at that.
Here are some thoughts. Please, correct me if I'm wrong! I'm still new at this...
1) Long tube headers should really be tuned, otherwise the vehicle might run lean. (True or False?)
My thoughts: $1,500 for parts + $400 for installation + $400 for a tune is starting to get ridiculous. It's just more money than I'd like to spend, especially since I'm still making payments on this car.
Possible solution: Are there any long tube headers that work well with factory cats, stock h pipe an no tune? A simple bolt on?
I read that the LG Streets can only use rear O2 sensors and I have to purchase a new set of O2 sensors. I don't like that for many reasons I won't mention here. I'd rather find another brand that simply bolts on and uses the stock O2 sensors.
I'm starting to think that long tube headers are simply out of my price range. I might just get a tune to firm up the shift points and leave it at that.
Last edited by 71vetteinva; May 18, 2008 at 01:04 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,430
Likes: 1
From: Somewherebetweenhereandthere
Check out my SIG. My modds are in there.
I think my Z sounds AMAZING!!! I do have a cam but the LG headers- X-pipe, and stock TI's are great for lots of power and they aren't really loud!!! I can cruise at 80mph and be totally comfortable!!
I want B&B Bullet Cat back but I think they mightget me to much unwanted attention!!
I think my Z sounds AMAZING!!! I do have a cam but the LG headers- X-pipe, and stock TI's are great for lots of power and they aren't really loud!!! I can cruise at 80mph and be totally comfortable!!
I want B&B Bullet Cat back but I think they mightget me to much unwanted attention!!
Last edited by vettelover84; May 18, 2008 at 05:30 PM.
Pro
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 580
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From: Ironton Ohio
I have LG pro's without cats on my car and run all 4 factory sensors without a check engine light. Results may vary though. My buddy runs Kooks with cats and he gets a CEL occasionally. Either way I thought I had read that adding headers usually causes the car to richen up the mixture instead of leaning it out. You might look in the classified section for a deal on some used stuff....
Team Owner
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 24,987
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From: Kerrville, Texas USA Hook 'em Horns!
CentralTX Events Coordinator
St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
Shop around for a used set of headers. I got a used set of Kooks that used all my factory air fittings including high flow cats and an x-pipe for $800. I got them installed for $200.
George bought my used tpis long tube headers with factory cats and Corsa x-pipe for $650. He got them installed for $200 also.
George bought my used tpis long tube headers with factory cats and Corsa x-pipe for $650. He got them installed for $200 also.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,608
Likes: 7
From: the GOCC are everywhere, even back from "band camp"
Keep saving until you can afford the long tube headers and a tune then do it right.
Bruce
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,661
Likes: 67
From: Ocean Springs MS
Possible solution: Are there any long tube headers that work well with factory cats, stock h pipe an no tune? A simple bolt on?
I read that the LG Streets can only use rear O2 sensors and I have to purchase a new set of O2 sensors. I don't like that for many reasons I won't mention here. I'd rather find another brand that simply bolts on and uses the stock O2 sensors.
I read that the LG Streets can only use rear O2 sensors and I have to purchase a new set of O2 sensors. I don't like that for many reasons I won't mention here. I'd rather find another brand that simply bolts on and uses the stock O2 sensors.
As to your second question, originally, many years ago when they first came out, LG mounted the x-pipe in front of the cats with only the front 2 O2 bungs. Due to the long distance from the exhaust ports, the O2 sensors would not heat up enough to work right. LGs original solution was to use the 2 rear sensors, which are heated, in the front, using an adapter for the different plugs. When I got my Pros a couple years ago, they had gone to cats in front of the x-pipe with provisions for all 4 O2 sensors, wired just like stock.
As for cost, if you are paying for installation, you might try to find a place that will install and tune for 1 price. LG did my install and tune for $500, but then of course, I was buying their headers.