[Z06] HP Tuners LIVE, LS6
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 398
From: Raleigh Suburbs
HP Tuners LIVE, LS6
Hey how many of you have Street Tuned their ride? I spent over 50 hours with street tuning on the Engine tweaking a couple of parameters, one is the VE, the other is PE. I messed with DFCO although I have not completed the timing adjustments just because I ran out of time in regards to the tuning (right now I'm at 18 - 21 degrees).
I have completed most of the VE tuning, as my Trims are very good at all Revs, thus I do not have to worry about any fuel corrections because for WOT runs the Trims are perfect.
I'm wondering if my O2 sensors on board are at over 900, one am I going to have to lean it out for best power, two what is that going to be when I make it over to the Dynometer? (as far as stoichimetric ratio)
Any advice will be greatly appreciated, or any comments are welcome in reference to street tunes for power.
I have completed most of the VE tuning, as my Trims are very good at all Revs, thus I do not have to worry about any fuel corrections because for WOT runs the Trims are perfect.
I'm wondering if my O2 sensors on board are at over 900, one am I going to have to lean it out for best power, two what is that going to be when I make it over to the Dynometer? (as far as stoichimetric ratio)
Any advice will be greatly appreciated, or any comments are welcome in reference to street tunes for power.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,355
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From: Los Angeles
FYI there's an entire subforum dedicated to scan and tune:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-scan-and-tune-91/
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-scan-and-tune-91/
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 398
From: Raleigh Suburbs
Actually, yes I am tuning with the narrowband 02s. I'm posting here because I do not know if the LS6 has different tuning characteristics than other GEN III's or IV's.
Here is a sample of the tune I have for current results:
On the graph you'll notice the oxygen sensors are level up to the point that I have the limiter. In this particular case it's 6800, although the graph for this one shuts down at 6600.
I'm not sure if this is reading rich, or if I might be ok in regards to the readings for street driving.
If not I probably do not have to worry about bringing it down since it's pretty good. For the road we most likely do not need to have readings lower because we very well might run into load conditions that may adjust the consistency of the graph for stability.
Here is a sample of the tune I have for current results:
On the graph you'll notice the oxygen sensors are level up to the point that I have the limiter. In this particular case it's 6800, although the graph for this one shuts down at 6600.
I'm not sure if this is reading rich, or if I might be ok in regards to the readings for street driving.
If not I probably do not have to worry about bringing it down since it's pretty good. For the road we most likely do not need to have readings lower because we very well might run into load conditions that may adjust the consistency of the graph for stability.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,937
Likes: 348
From: My interests are mobile
Dude, you're playing with fire trying to tune under load with narrowbands. That is outside the role of what a narrowband is designed to do. Narrowbands merely read stoich and tell the ecu where the mixture is in relation to stoich.
Under load, peak N/A power is in the high 12's to low 13's (which can get risky). You need a wideband which can read down in those ranges accurately.
Not sure I understand all what you're saying, but if you're referring to dramatic changes when you hit the limiter...it's because it's a limiter...that's the point.
Under load, peak N/A power is in the high 12's to low 13's (which can get risky). You need a wideband which can read down in those ranges accurately.
Not sure I understand all what you're saying, but if you're referring to dramatic changes when you hit the limiter...it's because it's a limiter...that's the point.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 398
From: Raleigh Suburbs
Yeah I do have some of the information in regards to the numbers for greater clarification. Here are a couple of segments on the graph, running from 2500 - 6500 rpm, in 1000 rpm breaks.
I have removed the other segments of the graph, since they are not going to be relevant for this sample. As you can see the O2 sensors are just over 900 for almost the entire run and I have them unfluctuating for almost all the run. The question is do I have to worry about any richness with the graph, or in this particular case should it be good in reference to the tune. I do realize I'm going to have to connect some sort of Wideband eventually to have more accurate readings for better power, and I probably should change the plugs and wires to have more consistent readings across the graph, although right now I'm just referencing the tune in terms of street driving for accurate readings.
I have removed the other segments of the graph, since they are not going to be relevant for this sample. As you can see the O2 sensors are just over 900 for almost the entire run and I have them unfluctuating for almost all the run. The question is do I have to worry about any richness with the graph, or in this particular case should it be good in reference to the tune. I do realize I'm going to have to connect some sort of Wideband eventually to have more accurate readings for better power, and I probably should change the plugs and wires to have more consistent readings across the graph, although right now I'm just referencing the tune in terms of street driving for accurate readings.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 398
From: Raleigh Suburbs
Just want to mention you may notice with the numbers 02 readings in the narrowbands are over 900. This is what I mean when I say the readings are over what they should be in comparison to Dyno testing. For this, the reason I have the numbers over 900 is not only for environmental conditions, in regards to Atmospheric Pressure, Temperature, Conditions, and load, but also for road conditions, since we do not all the time know the conditions for calculations. Anyway let me know if it may need corrections or it's good in reference to the results.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 14
From: Odessa TX
I'm still a little confused as to what you're trying to do. You're trying to tune WOT with a narrowband? If so, I doubt you'll get much advice here besides that you need a wideband, because you want ~12.5 AFR when at WOT.
If you're doing part throttle tuning, then can't you look at LTFT in conjunction with narrowband voltage to figure out where you need to be?
If you're doing part throttle tuning, then can't you look at LTFT in conjunction with narrowband voltage to figure out where you need to be?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Raleigh Suburbs
Uh no, you can't. VE or Part-Throttle Tuning is not the same as PE, or Full-Throttle Tuning. They are not going to be associated because narrowband 02s do not have consistent stability in any way during part throttle applications, irregardless of conditions. You can work the PE very easily with the narrowbands, but most likely you can't count them the same or reliably because of different tuning characteristics for different cars.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,071
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From: Odessa TX
Admittedly my knowledge on tuning isn't great, but I was under the impression that the PCM uses NB O2 readings at part thorttle to keep the AFR around stoich. ? I know the voltage isn't stable, but that's why you look at LTFTs?
Then at WOT you're running off a more or less fixed fuel map, with no input from NB O2 measurements since they only read between 14-15 AFR and you need to be ~12.5 at WOT?
Correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I've gathered from reading up on HPtuners forum and a few beginning tutorials for tuning..
Then at WOT you're running off a more or less fixed fuel map, with no input from NB O2 measurements since they only read between 14-15 AFR and you need to be ~12.5 at WOT?
Correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I've gathered from reading up on HPtuners forum and a few beginning tutorials for tuning..
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Raleigh Suburbs
Well yes, VE & PE are going to be different in this regard, because they have different requirements for corrections than some of the other parameters on the engine. Subsequently if you have VE stabilized and have no need to correct part throttle settings, you can then tune the PE in terms of 02 readings for WOT. Yes I realize that's a lot of work, plus certainly you will want to make sure your VE is right on target before messing with the PE, however this allows for the adjustments that are possible for the tuning of the PE for stabilization prior to any Dyno tuning.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2008
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Turn off LTFT + STFT + DFCO. Install wideband. Use wideband to tune car properly. stoich for partial, ~12.5 for NA engines WOT. I started with VE, then went to MAF. I use Greg's method of histograms logging % of hitting target AFR. Makes for easy easy map changes. I don't think you can accurately determine timing without a dyno btw.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Raleigh Suburbs
That's interesting, because I know that's a lot of work in terms of the application of modifications for our requirements.
For comment, I'll mention that first of all we are talking about two different subsets, VE & PE. Now, typically you want to finish the VE such that you don't have to worry about any interference from the different parameters. This way, you have PE for the programming in regards to WOT, which eventually yes will have to be done on a Dynometer for best tuning. Nonetheless, you'll have the advantage if you can work on the tune prior to Dyno sessions, saving money as well as time, depending on prices.
For comment, I'll mention that first of all we are talking about two different subsets, VE & PE. Now, typically you want to finish the VE such that you don't have to worry about any interference from the different parameters. This way, you have PE for the programming in regards to WOT, which eventually yes will have to be done on a Dynometer for best tuning. Nonetheless, you'll have the advantage if you can work on the tune prior to Dyno sessions, saving money as well as time, depending on prices.
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
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Likes: 398
From: Raleigh Suburbs
Another characteristic that may be interesting is the VE (Volumetric Efficiency). One trick of the trade that many might or might not know is that when your VE is not on target, with either the method listed or other techniques, the PE may be off. Thus, it is wise to have the car on the road and see if you have the chance to work with the VE. This will then prevent PE from being miscalculated with inaccurate VE computations and will offer more horses on board without unnecessary VE corrections, which might sometimes reduce final numbers.
Instructor
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 220
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From: ames ia
Then at WOT you're running off a more or less fixed fuel map, with no input from NB O2 measurements since they only read between 14-15 AFR and you need to be ~12.5 at WOT?
Correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I've gathered from reading up on HPtuners forum and a few beginning tutorials for tuning..
Correct me if I'm wrong. This is just what I've gathered from reading up on HPtuners forum and a few beginning tutorials for tuning..
For PE tuning stability you always want your LTFT to be just a hair negative to give you a small buffer to your PE table...
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 398
From: Raleigh Suburbs
Correct, lean conditions are poor, the computer adjusts because you don't want the engine exploding at any revs. You'll see this for any level of implementation of street tunes.