Do car manufacturers do it on purpose?
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2013
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22
Do car manufacturers do it on purpose?
Ah the good old days working on cars. If you had to repair or replace a part, you could do it easily. Today more often than not you have to remove half of the motor to reach that part.
I realize that motors are more complex now due to progress and government interference. Do you think car manufacturers purposely draw up complicated motor schemes so you're more likely to take your car to a professional mechanic? That means more profit for them.
There was even a proposal a while back to stop selling after market parts and only have repairs done at approved shops.
I realize that motors are more complex now due to progress and government interference. Do you think car manufacturers purposely draw up complicated motor schemes so you're more likely to take your car to a professional mechanic? That means more profit for them.
There was even a proposal a while back to stop selling after market parts and only have repairs done at approved shops.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Houston TX
Some try to persuade you to take the car to the dealer instead of being able to DIY. On my old E90, they required you to code for a new battery, injectors and other small things. Of course, people found out how to easily DIY and code the cars themselves to avoid the stealerships once out of warranty.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2013
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From: West Virginia
When I was in the design business many eons ago, the goal was that cost to manufacture should be as low as possible. The factory had to be able to assemble the car reliably, but no one designed for serviceability - just get it through the warranty period as cheaply as possible.
Let's face it, if you designed for ease of maintenance, you would not make it so you have to remove the rear end on our cars to get at the clutch. And you certainly would not have put the fuel filters in the fuel tanks - thankfully they did not do that on early C5's, so my fuel filter replacement was relatively simple.
In my experience, what the manufacturers care about is build and assembly cost, plus getting through the warranty period as cheaply as possible.
After that you are supposed to buy a new one.
Let's face it, if you designed for ease of maintenance, you would not make it so you have to remove the rear end on our cars to get at the clutch. And you certainly would not have put the fuel filters in the fuel tanks - thankfully they did not do that on early C5's, so my fuel filter replacement was relatively simple.
In my experience, what the manufacturers care about is build and assembly cost, plus getting through the warranty period as cheaply as possible.
After that you are supposed to buy a new one.
Last edited by jackthelad; Nov 11, 2015 at 03:59 PM.
Le Mans Master
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From: Kelso Washington
St. Jude Donor '09, '13, '15
Yeah, I often envision the engineers laughing at all of us busting knuckles and cursing as we remove too much stuff to get to something simple!
I don't think they do it on purpose but really have to wonder sometimes.
And this isn't new.....same with plenty of older cars I've worked on.
I don't think they do it on purpose but really have to wonder sometimes.
And this isn't new.....same with plenty of older cars I've worked on.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Lake Elsinore, CA
As a grizzled, old design engineer, I can tell you that this is a completely ridiculous idea. The considerations that go into product design incorporate multiple aspects of ease of assembly, maintenance, repair, reliability, cost and many other factors. One of them is definitely not, "How can I design this to prevent the consumer from maintaining or repairing it himself so our service division can florish?"
Service departments are always busy and have always been busy regardless of the complexity of the vehicles because a large percentage of the population can't - or won't - work on their own vehicles. With the advent of DIY shows and the internet, many more now work on their own cars and homes but the service segment of most industries ain't missin' any meals.
Service departments are always busy and have always been busy regardless of the complexity of the vehicles because a large percentage of the population can't - or won't - work on their own vehicles. With the advent of DIY shows and the internet, many more now work on their own cars and homes but the service segment of most industries ain't missin' any meals.
Last edited by Patches; Nov 11, 2015 at 05:13 PM.
Racer
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 400
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From: St. Paul (smokey!) MN
I don't work on my cars, but no, I don't think any car manufacturer intentionally makes their cars hard to work on.
Fuel economy/emission regulations are the primary driver. Packaging has to be lighter, smaller, and smoother. As a result, everything is configured to use as little space as possible.
I pop the hood of my 97 tahoe and marvel at the accessibility of everything in there. That design goes back to the early 70's when they had 454 big blocks. With my 350, there is all kinds of empty space under the hood.
Fuel economy/emission regulations are the primary driver. Packaging has to be lighter, smaller, and smoother. As a result, everything is configured to use as little space as possible.
I pop the hood of my 97 tahoe and marvel at the accessibility of everything in there. That design goes back to the early 70's when they had 454 big blocks. With my 350, there is all kinds of empty space under the hood.
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2011
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From: Appleton WI
[QUOTE=jackthelad;1590884943] no one designed for serviceability
Let's face it, if you designed for ease of maintenance, you would not make it so you have to remove the rear end on our cars to get at the clutch. And you certainly would not have put the fuel filters in the fuel tanks - thankfully they did not do that on early C5's, so my fuel filter replacement was relatively simple.
Based on my experience as a casting engineer, I can tell you that I've seen cases where engine design changes were made to improve serviceability.
There are limitations on what can be done and still provide a product that people want with the performance characteristics that are competitive with cars much more expensive than a Corvette. A clutch replacement should be an infrequent maintenance item. The drivetrain is a structural component of the car.
Lastly, thank the government for the fuel filter in the fuel tank.
Let's face it, if you designed for ease of maintenance, you would not make it so you have to remove the rear end on our cars to get at the clutch. And you certainly would not have put the fuel filters in the fuel tanks - thankfully they did not do that on early C5's, so my fuel filter replacement was relatively simple.
Based on my experience as a casting engineer, I can tell you that I've seen cases where engine design changes were made to improve serviceability.
There are limitations on what can be done and still provide a product that people want with the performance characteristics that are competitive with cars much more expensive than a Corvette. A clutch replacement should be an infrequent maintenance item. The drivetrain is a structural component of the car.
Lastly, thank the government for the fuel filter in the fuel tank.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2014
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From: Kelowna BC
Compare a similar car from the 70's. The newer model will get better mileage, performance, reliability, is easier to start, runs nicer, better in cold weather... a bit harder to work on, maybe.
Safety Car
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Hilton NY
The C5's aren't bad, only three fairly good shop books. For comparison I have a 2008 Cadillac STS that refuses to start, the push button start goes berserk and it's tied into the instrument panel computer and that's tied to the power train computer. The five shop books are no help in solving this problem, the starter is under the intake manifold between cylinder banks. The car claims that the shifter isn't in park when it is. The dealer expects me to tow the car in for diagnosis and repair, there is no published cause for this even in the shop book library. Most of the components in the new shop books only show wires going into and out of but no description of what the component does or what happens if it doesn't operate correctly. I've noticed that on some GM engines the $12 knock sensors are on the outside of the block and easy to replace while others locate them under the intake manifold requiring more work and cost to repair.
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Melting Slicks
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Here's ya a good example. My tuner pulled a computer out of a new SRT hell-kitten. Had to send it off to get it unlocked so that they could tune on it. Guess what? You cannot put the car into Neutral to push it out the door so it's in the way for a week (under a lift with a C5 on it) until the computer returns. Brilliant!
Burning Brakes
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Here's ya a good example. My tuner pulled a computer out of a new SRT hell-kitten. Had to send it off to get it unlocked so that they could tune on it. Guess what? You cannot put the car into Neutral to push it out the door so it's in the way for a week (under a lift with a C5 on it) until the computer returns. Brilliant!
Team Owner
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From: Dear Karma, I have a list of people you missed.
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16
As a grizzled, old design engineer, I can tell you that this is a completely ridiculous idea. The considerations that go into product design incorporate multiple aspects of ease of assembly, maintenance, repair, reliability, cost and many other factors. One of them is definitely not, "How can I design this to prevent the consumer from maintaining or repairing it himself so our service division can florish?"
Service departments are always busy and have always been busy regardless of the complexity of the vehicles because a large percentage of the population can't - or won't - work on their own vehicles. With the advent of DIY shows and the internet, many more now work on their own cars and homes but the service segment of most industries ain't missin' any meals.
Service departments are always busy and have always been busy regardless of the complexity of the vehicles because a large percentage of the population can't - or won't - work on their own vehicles. With the advent of DIY shows and the internet, many more now work on their own cars and homes but the service segment of most industries ain't missin' any meals.
Thank you Ed, for the much needed dose of reality whenever these ridiculous, and usually over simplistic ideas get floated. Couldn't have said it better. 
Melting Slicks
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Not so! I thought it was the clutch slave cylinder but recently have come to realize it's the passenger side HVAC actuator. I can't show you a picture of it because I haven't gotten there yet.
Melting Slicks
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Safety Car
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