60's HP vs C5 HP
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Racer
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From: Mobile AL
Originally Posted by DC-STRO
I also have a 1971 Mach 1 with a 351 Cleveland that cranked out 504 hp on the dyno (at the crankshaft). The car has a 4 speed with a 3.90 4 pinion traction lock posi.there is no way I could take my C5 off the line with the Mach 1, unless I was running slicks.
The C5 gets the power to the wheels so much better that the old muscle cars with **** loads of power.
Untill I bought the C5, I would have never belived this. When I drove my Mach 1 , I thought that I could kick thoes C5's azzes.
Last edited by Lerxst2112; Jan 10, 2005 at 03:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by slwhite
I pulled some old road tests. An example is:
1970 Hemi Cuda, 426 hemi/425 HP, 13.10 ET@107 MPH, 3.54 rear end, from Car Craft magazine 11/69
The hemi was rated at 425 gross HP. The car dynoed at about 300 RWHP. A Z06 puts out about 350 RWHP. This demonstrates that the LS6 is putting out more power than that old 426 hemi. I believe those stories about underated engines are just myths. If that hemi Cuda was putting out over 500 HP, the quarter mile trap speed would be a lot faster than 107 MPH. I looked at a lot of old road tests and the quarter mile times and speeds are consistent with what the manufacturer rated the engine at. The fastest road test that I found for a stock car from the 60s was a 1966 Shelby AC Cobra with the 427 from the 11/65 issue of Car Craft. It ran a 12.20@118 MPH which is about the same as a Z06 of today. As I recall, that Cobra only weighed about 2500 pounds or about 600 pounds lighter than a Z06.
Conclusion: We are living in the Golden Age of high performance cars right now!
1970 Hemi Cuda, 426 hemi/425 HP, 13.10 ET@107 MPH, 3.54 rear end, from Car Craft magazine 11/69
The hemi was rated at 425 gross HP. The car dynoed at about 300 RWHP. A Z06 puts out about 350 RWHP. This demonstrates that the LS6 is putting out more power than that old 426 hemi. I believe those stories about underated engines are just myths. If that hemi Cuda was putting out over 500 HP, the quarter mile trap speed would be a lot faster than 107 MPH. I looked at a lot of old road tests and the quarter mile times and speeds are consistent with what the manufacturer rated the engine at. The fastest road test that I found for a stock car from the 60s was a 1966 Shelby AC Cobra with the 427 from the 11/65 issue of Car Craft. It ran a 12.20@118 MPH which is about the same as a Z06 of today. As I recall, that Cobra only weighed about 2500 pounds or about 600 pounds lighter than a Z06.
Conclusion: We are living in the Golden Age of high performance cars right now!
I never owned a 426 Hemi but I did have a 427/435 Tri power in my SS for a while. Those things were monsters! They had power out the Wazoo! Yes and they were very much under rated like most of the other engines. Dodge 426 wedge/ 425HP 426Hemi/ 425HP Yea, right!
I think some of you guys are being naive to think those old cars can’t compare, power wise, to the stock C5. I assure they could if they were on equal footing. But they were very high maintenance engines. I’ve owned engines and cars in both worlds and to me I think I would rather have the C5.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Cedar Rapids Iowa
Originally Posted by PaPaChoc
What you’re doing is comparing apples to oranges! There is no way to compare cars today against the cars of yesterday. The main thing is the tires. Look at any bone stock C5 and then compare them to the tires that came on those old cars. If I remember correctly the “Tiger Paws” that came on my SS396 were like 6.5” wide. My car came with the 325HP version. I could break the tire loose in 3rd gear and when I did a few mods to it I could break them a loose in 4th! Now having said all that I can understand a Hemi-cuda not having a very good time or MPH. He was still fighting traction. Remember we didn’t have traction control back then! Plus those old cars were a lot heavier than the C5.
I never owned a 426 Hemi but I did have a 427/435 Tri power in my SS for a while. Those things were monsters! They had power out the Wazoo! Yes and they were very much under rated like most of the other engines. Dodge 426 wedge/ 425HP 426Hemi/ 425HP Yea, right!
I think some of you guys are being naive to think those old cars can’t compare, power wise, to the stock C5. I assure they could if they were on equal footing. But they were very high maintenance engines. I’ve owned engines and cars in both worlds and to me I think I would rather have the C5.
I never owned a 426 Hemi but I did have a 427/435 Tri power in my SS for a while. Those things were monsters! They had power out the Wazoo! Yes and they were very much under rated like most of the other engines. Dodge 426 wedge/ 425HP 426Hemi/ 425HP Yea, right!
I think some of you guys are being naive to think those old cars can’t compare, power wise, to the stock C5. I assure they could if they were on equal footing. But they were very high maintenance engines. I’ve owned engines and cars in both worlds and to me I think I would rather have the C5.
Last edited by slwhite; Jan 10, 2005 at 08:24 AM.
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The hemi cuda ran a 13.10 at 107 and that's with the no traction bias ply tires. The hemi was not a 1/4 mile engine stock. The hemi was the nascar engine. Remember the hemi was banned in a winged car by nascar becasue nobody could catch it. The Z06 is a bad car straight up however there are many an old car that will whip it's a$$. You ever hear of something called a hemi dart ?? 10.90's what about the l88 corvette another 10 second car right from the factory. The chrysler max wedge cars ?? The ford 427 cammer ?? You should take your vette to the track and run a couple of 60's big block chryslers and chevys.
Last edited by JD'S WHITE 93; Jan 11, 2005 at 02:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by JD'S WHITE 93
The hemi cuda ran a 13.10 at 107 and that's with the no traction bias ply tires. The hemi was not a 1/4 mile engine stock. The hemi was the nascar engine. Remember the hemi was banned in a winged car by nascar becasue nobody could catch it. The Z06 is a bad car straight up however there are many an old car that will whip it's a$$. You ever hear of something called a hemi dart ?? 10.90's what about the l88 corvette another 10 second car right from the factory. The chrysler max wedge cars ?? The ford 427 cammer ?? You should take your vette to the track and run a couple of 60's big block chryslers and chevys.
Le Mans Master
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It's not apples to oranges at all, the hemi dart was sold that way box stock it would tear up a new vette. Sure the car was made to go racing
including it's lightweight van seats and seatbelt straps to hold the windows up but one of the posts was he would put his Z06 against any of the old muscle cars. The l88 vette is another one and that car wasn't a stripped out racer however it did run 10.80's So how is that apples to oranges comparing the baddest stock vette from 2004 to the baddest stock vette from the 60's ??
including it's lightweight van seats and seatbelt straps to hold the windows up but one of the posts was he would put his Z06 against any of the old muscle cars. The l88 vette is another one and that car wasn't a stripped out racer however it did run 10.80's So how is that apples to oranges comparing the baddest stock vette from 2004 to the baddest stock vette from the 60's ??
Last edited by JD'S WHITE 93; Jan 11, 2005 at 11:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by JD'S WHITE 93
It's not apples to oranges at all, the hemi dart was sold that way box stock it would tear up a new vette. Sure the car was made to go racing
including it's lightweight van seats and seatbelt straps to hold the windows up but one of the posts was he would put his Z06 against any of the old muscle cars. The l88 vette is another one and that car wasn't a stripped out racer however it did run 10.80's So how is that apples to oranges comparing the baddest stock vette from 2004 to the baddest stock vette from the 60's ??
including it's lightweight van seats and seatbelt straps to hold the windows up but one of the posts was he would put his Z06 against any of the old muscle cars. The l88 vette is another one and that car wasn't a stripped out racer however it did run 10.80's So how is that apples to oranges comparing the baddest stock vette from 2004 to the baddest stock vette from the 60's ??
What I’m trying to say is;
Apples= All out race car
Oranges= a car I can drive every day and not worry about working on it.
Me, Ill take the orange!
Off the subject a little but I was reading a Vette magazine and there was an auction some where and a 67 L88 Coupe was sold for $600,000 and change and the ridicules thing was it had only 12 MILES ON IT! WTF!
Race Director
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From: SCMR Rat Pack'r Charter Member..Great Bend KS
The last issue of Corvette Magazine talks about the engineers in the C4 program comparing the LT1 of the early '70's to the then-new LT-1 in 1992.
They mention that the '92 LT-1's 300 net-rated horsepower was actually significantly more than the 370 gross rated horsepower of the '70's engine.
So, in this case anyway, we're looking at about a 25% difference between the two methods of measuring power.
L88 Vette running 10.80's stock? I can categorically say that was impossible....stock.
Larry
code5coupe
They mention that the '92 LT-1's 300 net-rated horsepower was actually significantly more than the 370 gross rated horsepower of the '70's engine.
So, in this case anyway, we're looking at about a 25% difference between the two methods of measuring power.
L88 Vette running 10.80's stock? I can categorically say that was impossible....stock.
Larry
code5coupe
Last edited by rocco16; Jan 11, 2005 at 03:21 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 108
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From: Davidsonville Md
Originally Posted by slwhite
I pulled some old road tests. An example is:
1970 Hemi Cuda, 426 hemi/425 HP, 13.10 ET@107 MPH, 3.54 rear end, from Car Craft magazine 11/69
The hemi was rated at 425 gross HP. The car dynoed at about 300 RWHP. A Z06 puts out about 350 RWHP. This demonstrates that the LS6 is putting out more power than that old 426 hemi. I believe those stories about underated engines are just myths. If that hemi Cuda was putting out over 500 HP, the quarter mile trap speed would be a lot faster than 107 MPH. I looked at a lot of old road tests and the quarter mile times and speeds are consistent with what the manufacturer rated the engine at. The fastest road test that I found for a stock car from the 60s was a 1966 Shelby AC Cobra with the 427 from the 11/65 issue of Car Craft. It ran a 12.20@118 MPH which is about the same as a Z06 of today. As I recall, that Cobra only weighed about 2500 pounds or about 600 pounds lighter than a Z06.
Conclusion: We are living in the Golden Age of high performance cars right now!
1970 Hemi Cuda, 426 hemi/425 HP, 13.10 ET@107 MPH, 3.54 rear end, from Car Craft magazine 11/69
The hemi was rated at 425 gross HP. The car dynoed at about 300 RWHP. A Z06 puts out about 350 RWHP. This demonstrates that the LS6 is putting out more power than that old 426 hemi. I believe those stories about underated engines are just myths. If that hemi Cuda was putting out over 500 HP, the quarter mile trap speed would be a lot faster than 107 MPH. I looked at a lot of old road tests and the quarter mile times and speeds are consistent with what the manufacturer rated the engine at. The fastest road test that I found for a stock car from the 60s was a 1966 Shelby AC Cobra with the 427 from the 11/65 issue of Car Craft. It ran a 12.20@118 MPH which is about the same as a Z06 of today. As I recall, that Cobra only weighed about 2500 pounds or about 600 pounds lighter than a Z06.
Conclusion: We are living in the Golden Age of high performance cars right now!
I agree. The muscle cars of the 60's were called muscle cars, in part, because you needed muscles to drive them..fewer had power steering, power brakes, power assisted clutches, etc. They also seemed more powerful because they were louder. Modern cars have the power and deliver it quietly with better tires, brakes, suspensions, transmissions, etc.
OH, bring back the sounds of a 327, 389, 409, 426 or 427 and couple that with the lowsy synchronizers and gear banging!!!
Racer
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Originally Posted by Gib
I agree. The muscle cars of the 60's were called muscle cars, in part, because you needed muscles to drive them..fewer had power steering, power brakes, power assisted clutches, etc. They also seemed more powerful because they were louder. Modern cars have the power and deliver it quietly with better tires, brakes, suspensions, transmissions, etc.
OH, bring back the sounds of a 327, 389, 409, 426 or 427 and couple that with the lowsy synchronizers and gear banging!!!
OH, bring back the sounds of a 327, 389, 409, 426 or 427 and couple that with the lowsy synchronizers and gear banging!!!
Sorry about the rant, just an old man reliving his past!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 926
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From: TX
hey papa
ole days were good times. i could pull wheelies in my 66 gto with goodyear polyglas tires. Just punch it up and let off a couple of times. probably due to the poor suspension qualities, not the tires, but it was lots of fun. (did break the motor mounts, twice.)
believe i have seen the 67 vette you are talking about at roger's corvettes in maitland, florida.
wish i still had the goat, but i would not take it back if it meant losing the c5.
this is a great thread.
verysoon
ole days were good times. i could pull wheelies in my 66 gto with goodyear polyglas tires. Just punch it up and let off a couple of times. probably due to the poor suspension qualities, not the tires, but it was lots of fun. (did break the motor mounts, twice.)
believe i have seen the 67 vette you are talking about at roger's corvettes in maitland, florida.
wish i still had the goat, but i would not take it back if it meant losing the c5.
this is a great thread.
verysoon
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,240
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From: Cedar Rapids Iowa
Originally Posted by JD'S WHITE 93
The hemi cuda ran a 13.10 at 107 and that's with the no traction bias ply tires. The hemi was not a 1/4 mile engine stock. The hemi was the nascar engine. Remember the hemi was banned in a winged car by nascar becasue nobody could catch it. The Z06 is a bad car straight up however there are many an old car that will whip it's a$$. You ever hear of something called a hemi dart ?? 10.90's what about the l88 corvette another 10 second car right from the factory. The chrysler max wedge cars ?? The ford 427 cammer ?? You should take your vette to the track and run a couple of 60's big block chryslers and chevys.
http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/l88/l88perf.html
Mid-13s at best rather than 10s. Trap speed of about 110 MPH. If you have documentation attesting to mid-10s performance of a STOCK L88 Corvette please share it with us.
See also this link for another reality check.
http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm
I am not trying to start an argument here, I am merely trying to clear away fond memories and get the facts on the table. As I said in an earlier post, I am 51 years old and I have those fond memories also. It was quite a shock to go back and actually look at the documented performance of what those STOCK cars could actually do. If you have documentation confirming what you say, I will be the first to retract anything that I have said that is incorrect.
And finally, if the Z06 engine power were rated by the pre-1971 gross measurement method, it would be advertised as having about 500 HP.
Last edited by slwhite; Jan 12, 2005 at 12:27 AM.
Le Mans Master
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Originally Posted by PaPaChoc
I’m not saying these weren’t bad A$$ cars. Far from It. The only point I’m trying to make is these were all out race cars! All of them, Hemi Dart, T-Bolt, 426 Max- Wedge, 426 Hemi, Swiss- cheese Catalina, Z-11 Chevy. These were some bad dudes. But you couldn’t or wouldn’t want to drive them on the street like you can a C5. I know for a fact that most of the cars I mentioned would smoke any stock C5
What I’m trying to say is;
Apples= All out race car
Oranges= a car I can drive every day and not worry about working on it.
Me, Ill take the orange!
Off the subject a little but I was reading a Vette magazine and there was an auction some where and a 67 L88 Coupe was sold for $600,000 and change and the ridicules thing was it had only 12 MILES ON IT! WTF!
What I’m trying to say is;
Apples= All out race car
Oranges= a car I can drive every day and not worry about working on it.
Me, Ill take the orange!
Off the subject a little but I was reading a Vette magazine and there was an auction some where and a 67 L88 Coupe was sold for $600,000 and change and the ridicules thing was it had only 12 MILES ON IT! WTF!
Le Mans Master
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Originally Posted by slwhite
I will let the facts speak for themselves rather than 35-year old recollections or my opinions. See the following link for a sampling of STOCK L88 Corvette performance.
http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/l88/l88perf.html
Mid-13s at best rather than 10s. Trap speed of about 110 MPH. If you have documentation attesting to mid-10s performance of a STOCK L88 Corvette please share it with us.
See also this link for another reality check.
http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm
I am not trying to start an argument here, I am merely trying to clear away fond memories and get the facts on the table. As I said in an earlier post, I am 51 years old and I have those fond memories also. It was quite a shock to go back and actually look at the documented performance of what those STOCK cars could actually do. If you have documentation confirming what you say, I will be the first to retract anything that I have said that is incorrect.
And finally, if the Z06 engine power were rated by the pre-1971 gross measurement method, it would be advertised as having about 500 HP.
http://corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/l88/l88perf.html
Mid-13s at best rather than 10s. Trap speed of about 110 MPH. If you have documentation attesting to mid-10s performance of a STOCK L88 Corvette please share it with us.
See also this link for another reality check.
http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm
I am not trying to start an argument here, I am merely trying to clear away fond memories and get the facts on the table. As I said in an earlier post, I am 51 years old and I have those fond memories also. It was quite a shock to go back and actually look at the documented performance of what those STOCK cars could actually do. If you have documentation confirming what you say, I will be the first to retract anything that I have said that is incorrect.
And finally, if the Z06 engine power were rated by the pre-1971 gross measurement method, it would be advertised as having about 500 HP.
1969 corvette ZL1 10.9 at 132 sorry Zl1 not l88
Would you like more documented examples of cars right off the showroom floor that would smoke a Z06 corvette ?
Last edited by JD'S WHITE 93; Jan 12, 2005 at 12:43 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,240
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From: Cedar Rapids Iowa
Originally Posted by JD'S WHITE 93
see also this link for another reality check ?? you should check your own link 1968 hemi dart 10.5 at 130mph.
1969 corvette ZL1 10.9 at 132 sorry Zl1 not l88
Would you like more documented examples of cars right off the showroom floor that would smoke a Z06 corvette ?
1969 corvette ZL1 10.9 at 132 sorry Zl1 not l88
Would you like more documented examples of cars right off the showroom floor that would smoke a Z06 corvette ?
If you want to include a ZL1 Corvette of which only 2 were sold to the public, I will concede. If I ever meet up with one of those 2 ZL1s, I will be in trouble. If you are stretching that much you might as well throw a Liggenfelter Twin Turbo Corvette into the mix. A lot more of those were made than ZL1s. I would not, because it is not a regular production car.
The SS Hemi Dart and SS Hemi Barracuda were sold as special deals for racing only. They were not streetable cars. Of coarse, this all depends on your definition of streetable. With that reasoning, we might as well include a C5-R, although I would not.
I am having a lot of fun with this thread.
Last edited by slwhite; Jan 12, 2005 at 01:11 AM.
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Originally Posted by slwhite
I did check it.
If you want to include a ZL1 Corvette of which only 2 were sold to the public, I will concede. If I ever meet up with one of those 2 ZL1s, I will be in trouble. If you are stretching that much you might as well throw a Liggenfelter Twin Turbo Corvette into the mix. A lot more of those were made than ZL1s. I would not, because it is not a regular production car.
The SS Hemi Dart and SS Hemi Barracuda were sold as special deals for racing only. They were not streetable cars. Of coarse, this all depends on your definition of streetable. With that reasoning, we might as well include a C5-R, although I would not.
I am having a lot of fun with this thread.
If you want to include a ZL1 Corvette of which only 2 were sold to the public, I will concede. If I ever meet up with one of those 2 ZL1s, I will be in trouble. If you are stretching that much you might as well throw a Liggenfelter Twin Turbo Corvette into the mix. A lot more of those were made than ZL1s. I would not, because it is not a regular production car.
The SS Hemi Dart and SS Hemi Barracuda were sold as special deals for racing only. They were not streetable cars. Of coarse, this all depends on your definition of streetable. With that reasoning, we might as well include a C5-R, although I would not.
I am having a lot of fun with this thread.
Probably want to include the galaxie with the 427 cammer too. There are many an old 60's muscle car that will run with the new Z06 with as little as tires. That hemi cuda ran 13.1's with bias ply tires leaving the line like an old lady, the trap speed would be higher if the car would even hook up a little. The post was on horsepower originally and that hemi cuda was rated 425 and that cuda was heavy and it didn't have the 4:10 gears which were available. Unless you find a completely stock hemi cuda with bias ply tires and not the 4:10 rear gears you won't want to race it either.The 66 corvette ran a 12.8 at 112 with a 3:36 rear end ratio. You don't think it would spank a z06 with the optional gears ? It would do that with as little as tires.The source is car and driver road test 11/65 L72 corvette This is fun though !!
Last edited by JD'S WHITE 93; Jan 12, 2005 at 02:57 AM.
Le Mans Master
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Originally Posted by slwhite
I did check it.
If you want to include a ZL1 Corvette of which only 2 were sold to the public, I will concede. If I ever meet up with one of those 2 ZL1s, I will be in trouble. If you are stretching that much you might as well throw a Liggenfelter Twin Turbo Corvette into the mix. A lot more of those were made than ZL1s. I would not, because it is not a regular production car.
The SS Hemi Dart and SS Hemi Barracuda were sold as special deals for racing only. They were not streetable cars. Of coarse, this all depends on your definition of streetable. With that reasoning, we might as well include a C5-R, although I would not.
I am having a lot of fun with this thread.
If you want to include a ZL1 Corvette of which only 2 were sold to the public, I will concede. If I ever meet up with one of those 2 ZL1s, I will be in trouble. If you are stretching that much you might as well throw a Liggenfelter Twin Turbo Corvette into the mix. A lot more of those were made than ZL1s. I would not, because it is not a regular production car.
The SS Hemi Dart and SS Hemi Barracuda were sold as special deals for racing only. They were not streetable cars. Of coarse, this all depends on your definition of streetable. With that reasoning, we might as well include a C5-R, although I would not.
I am having a lot of fun with this thread.
Racer
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 288
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Originally Posted by JD'S WHITE 93
Now you're retreating with they only made 2 zl1 corvettes and the hemi dart was for racing and the ramcharger was for racing. Like the Z06 corvette isn't for racing. Yeah chevy is building thousands of Z06 corvettes ??