Friggin CASTER: Can't Fix Alignment!!!
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 232
From: SoCal
Friggin CASTER: Can't Fix Alignment!!!
I have brought up this problem before. But today was the third attempt to get my front alignment correct. The problem is that to get the camber in spec and even side to side, it causes the caster to be uneven by 4 degrees. My alignment guy has the newest Henter and he officially gave up today and refered me to a frame guy.
Right now my front camber is -.7 on both sides. Left Caster is 6.0 and Right Caster is 9.9. The car pulls to the left on the freeway.
The frame guy says no way did I bend anything and that he would set the left camber at -.25 to compensate for the pulling. He said this would not affect tire wear. Even if this is true and could be done....wouldn't this affect my handling at the Track and Canyon Runs??
Where should I go??? Forget the dealer.....changed springs/cut bushings/Bilsteins and lowered....right?? Please advise this is making me crazy
DH
Right now my front camber is -.7 on both sides. Left Caster is 6.0 and Right Caster is 9.9. The car pulls to the left on the freeway.
The frame guy says no way did I bend anything and that he would set the left camber at -.25 to compensate for the pulling. He said this would not affect tire wear. Even if this is true and could be done....wouldn't this affect my handling at the Track and Canyon Runs??
Where should I go??? Forget the dealer.....changed springs/cut bushings/Bilsteins and lowered....right?? Please advise this is making me crazy
DH
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,762
Likes: 2
From: Murphy TX
Have you ever pulled the A-arms? I wonder if you require (or lost) a spacer on top on one side. The factory uses them for rough alignments and these will definitely affect camber and potentially caster. For one of mine I have washers on the front connection of the A-arm but not the rear. If you think about what this does, it moves the upper front a-arm out, effectively decreasing camber and increasing caster because the spindle mount will move backward slightly. With -1.5 I'm > 8* on both sides and dead even.
I'm wondering if this type of situation is causing your other issues because you can't get it right by adjusting only the concentrics.
I would not completely rule out a dealer. I have mine lowered on Z06 springs and trimmed bushings and they did mine. I even gave them a printout of what I wanted, and they set it to -1.5/-1. They gave me a tire wear disclaimer, but other than that did it.
You might try...
Just an idea.
I'm wondering if this type of situation is causing your other issues because you can't get it right by adjusting only the concentrics.
I would not completely rule out a dealer. I have mine lowered on Z06 springs and trimmed bushings and they did mine. I even gave them a printout of what I wanted, and they set it to -1.5/-1. They gave me a tire wear disclaimer, but other than that did it.
You might try...
Just an idea.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 232
From: SoCal
Tony: good advise 
Yellow isn't local but I think he has good bonifides!!
Yellow: Thanks for chiming in again on this issue. Actually the first thing this frame guy said was something about how many spacers did I have.
So you are saying that you have actually added spacers to get your caster correct for the camber you wanted to run because of the lack of adjustment range in the excentrics??!!
Are these spacers something that actuall could be knocked out??
Thanks again
DH
Yellow isn't local but I think he has good bonifides!!Yellow: Thanks for chiming in again on this issue. Actually the first thing this frame guy said was something about how many spacers did I have.
So you are saying that you have actually added spacers to get your caster correct for the camber you wanted to run because of the lack of adjustment range in the excentrics??!!
Are these spacers something that actuall could be knocked out??
Thanks again
DH
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,171
Likes: 0
From: TN
Cruise-In VII Veteran
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
I have brought up this problem before. But today was the third attempt to get my front alignment correct. The problem is that to get the camber in spec and even side to side, it causes the caster to be uneven by 4 degrees. My alignment guy has the newest Henter and he officially gave up today and refered me to a frame guy.
Right now my front camber is -.7 on both sides. Left Caster is 6.0 and Right Caster is 9.9. The car pulls to the left on the freeway.
The frame guy says no way did I bend anything and that he would set the left camber at -.25 to compensate for the pulling. He said this would not affect tire wear. Even if this is true and could be done....wouldn't this affect my handling at the Track and Canyon Runs??
Where should I go??? Forget the dealer.....changed springs/cut bushings/Bilsteins and lowered....right?? Please advise this is making me crazy
DH
Right now my front camber is -.7 on both sides. Left Caster is 6.0 and Right Caster is 9.9. The car pulls to the left on the freeway.
The frame guy says no way did I bend anything and that he would set the left camber at -.25 to compensate for the pulling. He said this would not affect tire wear. Even if this is true and could be done....wouldn't this affect my handling at the Track and Canyon Runs??
Where should I go??? Forget the dealer.....changed springs/cut bushings/Bilsteins and lowered....right?? Please advise this is making me crazy
DH
The frame guy is wrong, or you heard him wrong. If the car is pulling left(which it should be at -3.9 CROSS caster-that's the difference between left and right sides), making the left tire more positive(-0.25 v.s. -0.7) will make the car pull MORE to the left, and still not fix the caster. Unless there isn't an aftermarket solution(like Northstar products), you may have to raise one side back up 3/8"-3/4", if that's possible, these measurements are generally dictated by ride height. Let us know if this helps
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,384
Likes: 8
From: Southwest Virginia
Yellow01 is right on target here. If you can't get it to align with the factory bottom eccentrics then move to the upper arm and align it there. Center your lower eccentrics and start moving the top, when you get close tweak the bottom. You will need to look at your current spacers and figure out which side you want/can move in the correct direction. If you don't have any spacers then you can't move the top points in any. So you may be forced to move to the other side to match the settings and not be able to get the exact setting your looking for.
The spacers are washers placed between the upper A-arm mounts and the frame. They can't be knocked out, the bolt has to be removed to remove the spacers. My 01 Z06 has 2 spacers under each bolt (8 spacers total) on the right side of the car and none on the left side.
Another thing you may want to check is the front upper A-arms. They are VERY easy to bend on these cars!
They are very thin near the mount points and its very common to see them bent. They normally bend near the mount where they drop down and then head away from the mount. When they bend the just droop a little more which will shorten the arm. Normally the rear of the arm bends more than the front, but it all depends on how it got bent to where it will bend.
Good luck
The spacers are washers placed between the upper A-arm mounts and the frame. They can't be knocked out, the bolt has to be removed to remove the spacers. My 01 Z06 has 2 spacers under each bolt (8 spacers total) on the right side of the car and none on the left side.
Another thing you may want to check is the front upper A-arms. They are VERY easy to bend on these cars!
They are very thin near the mount points and its very common to see them bent. They normally bend near the mount where they drop down and then head away from the mount. When they bend the just droop a little more which will shorten the arm. Normally the rear of the arm bends more than the front, but it all depends on how it got bent to where it will bend.Good luck
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 6,772
Likes: 1
From: Tampa FL
Originally Posted by The Nuts
I'm an ASE certified in suspension and front end. Most likely the problem has to do with your lowered/cut suspension. You may have it so low the factory ajustments cannot correct it within specifications. Your ECCENTRICS(not concentrics) are maxed out. Depending on how they are positioned, caster and camber are adjusted together. That is why your mechanic can get camber, but not caster in specs. If he put the caster in specs, the camber will go out. This is considered normal(but not acceptable) on cars with altered suspensions.
The frame guy is wrong, or you heard him wrong. If the car is pulling left(which it should be at -3.9 CROSS caster-that's the difference between left and right sides), making the left tire more positive(-0.25 v.s. -0.7) will make the car pull MORE to the left, and still not fix the caster. Unless there isn't an aftermarket solution(like Northstar products), you may have to raise one side back up 3/8"-3/4", if that's possible, these measurements are generally dictated by ride height. Let us know if this helps
The frame guy is wrong, or you heard him wrong. If the car is pulling left(which it should be at -3.9 CROSS caster-that's the difference between left and right sides), making the left tire more positive(-0.25 v.s. -0.7) will make the car pull MORE to the left, and still not fix the caster. Unless there isn't an aftermarket solution(like Northstar products), you may have to raise one side back up 3/8"-3/4", if that's possible, these measurements are generally dictated by ride height. Let us know if this helps
Last edited by Neablas; Jul 27, 2005 at 12:46 PM.
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Racer
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: Palos Verdes California
Hi Howie,
It's pretty much impossible to figure out what's wrong with your car without seeing it in person. If you can't find anyone in Ventura or the valley, try West End Alignment in Gardena. Darin is the the owner and the only person who works there. He's not cheap, but given the time he will put into a car, I think he's worth it. Tell him Keith with the black Z06 sent you.
It's pretty much impossible to figure out what's wrong with your car without seeing it in person. If you can't find anyone in Ventura or the valley, try West End Alignment in Gardena. Darin is the the owner and the only person who works there. He's not cheap, but given the time he will put into a car, I think he's worth it. Tell him Keith with the black Z06 sent you.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,171
Likes: 0
From: TN
Cruise-In VII Veteran
Originally Posted by Neablas
i know of many people, on this forum, that have dropped their cars and have no problems regarding alignments.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 10,233
Likes: 21
From: Baltimore suburbs Maryland
I can attest to if the caster is out, the side with the shorter caster (in this case your left) the car will tend to pull that way. From what my alignment guy explained to me, it is because of the shorter wheel base on the left side, will pull the car left. Usually this is not an issue on something with skinny tires like a Camry or Accord, but with the wide tires of the C5, it needs a perfect alignment.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 232
From: SoCal
Originally Posted by The Nuts
I'm an ASE certified in suspension and front end. Most likely the problem has to do with your lowered/cut suspension. You may have it so low the factory ajustments cannot correct it within specifications. Your ECCENTRICS(not concentrics) are maxed out. Depending on how they are positioned, caster and camber are adjusted together. That is why your mechanic can get camber, but not caster in specs. If he put the caster in specs, the camber will go out. This is considered normal(but not acceptable) on cars with altered suspensions.
The frame guy is wrong, or you heard him wrong. If the car is pulling left(which it should be at -3.9 CROSS caster-that's the difference between left and right sides), making the left tire more positive(-0.25 v.s. -0.7) will make the car pull MORE to the left, and still not fix the caster. Unless there isn't an aftermarket solution(like Northstar products), you may have to raise one side back up 3/8"-3/4", if that's possible, these measurements are generally dictated by ride height. Let us know if this helps
The frame guy is wrong, or you heard him wrong. If the car is pulling left(which it should be at -3.9 CROSS caster-that's the difference between left and right sides), making the left tire more positive(-0.25 v.s. -0.7) will make the car pull MORE to the left, and still not fix the caster. Unless there isn't an aftermarket solution(like Northstar products), you may have to raise one side back up 3/8"-3/4", if that's possible, these measurements are generally dictated by ride height. Let us know if this helps
I had alignment done after lowering and Caster was even side to side....as well as Camber. But my car has settled since then. My front is right around 26 inches (ground to wheel well).After that I had a mishap at the track and hit a chicane's low rounded curb. My left front sits 1/8 inch lower than the right...not sure if its from the chicane.
I may have heard the guy on the phone wrong or may have given him wrong sides.
What is Northstar.....what would I need to help.
I would be willing to raise the driver side up by 1/8 inch thats ALL!!! (I would rather have car pull than raise it back up) Do you think that would help??
DH
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
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From: SoCal
Originally Posted by SpeedyZ
Yellow01 is right on target here. If you can't get it to align with the factory bottom eccentrics then move to the upper arm and align it there. Center your lower eccentrics and start moving the top, when you get close tweak the bottom. You will need to look at your current spacers and figure out which side you want/can move in the correct direction. If you don't have any spacers then you can't move the top points in any. So you may be forced to move to the other side to match the settings and not be able to get the exact setting your looking for.
The spacers are washers placed between the upper A-arm mounts and the frame. They can't be knocked out, the bolt has to be removed to remove the spacers. My 01 Z06 has 2 spacers under each bolt (8 spacers total) on the right side of the car and none on the left side.
Another thing you may want to check is the front upper A-arms. They are VERY easy to bend on these cars! They are very thin near the mount points and its very common to see them bent. They normally bend near the mount where they drop down and then head away from the mount. When they bend the just droop a little more which will shorten the arm. Normally the rear of the arm bends more than the front, but it all depends on how it got bent to where it will bend.
Good luck
The spacers are washers placed between the upper A-arm mounts and the frame. They can't be knocked out, the bolt has to be removed to remove the spacers. My 01 Z06 has 2 spacers under each bolt (8 spacers total) on the right side of the car and none on the left side.
Another thing you may want to check is the front upper A-arms. They are VERY easy to bend on these cars!
They are very thin near the mount points and its very common to see them bent. They normally bend near the mount where they drop down and then head away from the mount. When they bend the just droop a little more which will shorten the arm. Normally the rear of the arm bends more than the front, but it all depends on how it got bent to where it will bend.Good luck
The people I have talked to so far have said how "HARD" it is to bend an A-arm!!! How can you tell if its bent...do you have to remove it from the car? Which side would be bent to make it pull to the left?
Surprizing about the washers....different from one side to the other. So the guy that I spoke to that talked about spacers on the upper A-arm probably knows what he is talking about. If the A-arm is bent can adding or removing spacers allow for proper alignment??
DH
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
Likes: 232
From: SoCal
Originally Posted by crznZ06
Hi Howie,
It's pretty much impossible to figure out what's wrong with your car without seeing it in person. If you can't find anyone in Ventura or the valley, try West End Alignment in Gardena. Darin is the the owner and the only person who works there. He's not cheap, but given the time he will put into a car, I think he's worth it. Tell him Keith with the black Z06 sent you.
It's pretty much impossible to figure out what's wrong with your car without seeing it in person. If you can't find anyone in Ventura or the valley, try West End Alignment in Gardena. Darin is the the owner and the only person who works there. He's not cheap, but given the time he will put into a car, I think he's worth it. Tell him Keith with the black Z06 sent you.
Thanks for the referal but it is far and this guy from the frame place seems to know what he is talking about.
DH
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,384
Likes: 8
From: Southwest Virginia
Originally Posted by Dirty Howie
Thanks for the reply Speedy...
The people I have talked to so far have said how "HARD" it is to bend an A-arm!!! How can you tell if its bent...do you have to remove it from the car? Which side would be bent to make it pull to the left?
Surprizing about the washers....different from one side to the other. So the guy that I spoke to that talked about spacers on the upper A-arm probably knows what he is talking about. If the A-arm is bent can adding or removing spacers allow for proper alignment??
DH
The people I have talked to so far have said how "HARD" it is to bend an A-arm!!! How can you tell if its bent...do you have to remove it from the car? Which side would be bent to make it pull to the left?
Surprizing about the washers....different from one side to the other. So the guy that I spoke to that talked about spacers on the upper A-arm probably knows what he is talking about. If the A-arm is bent can adding or removing spacers allow for proper alignment??
DH
Every bent upper arm that I have seen has gotten shorter on one or both legs. So you would need to add spacers between the frame and arm to move the arm back to it's original location. If the arm is bent, you should replace it or it may break. I don't trust bent aluminum. The arms are cheap, around $100 from GM or the last one I got was $20 on eBay. Easy to change too, less than 20 minutes including jacking up the car and removing the wheel.
If both of your eccentrics on the bottom arm are all the way in, I would bet on a bent upper arm.
Thread Starter
Team Owner
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 26,345
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From: SoCal
Originally Posted by SpeedyZ
The upper front arms is very easy to bend when you hit something and it don't have to be a really hard hit. The upper arms are forged aluminum and pretty thin and lite weight, they are about a thick as your thumb up near the mounts. They are super strong for what they are, but they are very light. Because the way they are made they are pretty hard to tell if they are bent by looking at them. When I get home I will dig a bent one out of my pile of bent control arms a post a photo later tonight so you can see where they bend.
Every bent upper arm that I have seen has gotten shorter on one or both legs. So you would need to add spacers between the frame and arm to move the arm back to it's original location. If the arm is bent, you should replace it or it may break. I don't trust bent aluminum. The arms are cheap, around $100 from GM or the last one I got was $20 on eBay. Easy to change too, less than 20 minutes including jacking up the car and removing the wheel.
If both of your eccentrics on the bottom arm are all the way in, I would bet on a bent upper arm.
Every bent upper arm that I have seen has gotten shorter on one or both legs. So you would need to add spacers between the frame and arm to move the arm back to it's original location. If the arm is bent, you should replace it or it may break. I don't trust bent aluminum. The arms are cheap, around $100 from GM or the last one I got was $20 on eBay. Easy to change too, less than 20 minutes including jacking up the car and removing the wheel.
If both of your eccentrics on the bottom arm are all the way in, I would bet on a bent upper arm.
I will take a look at the pics. So this can be hard to see while arm is still attatched and wheel is on..... right?? And I agree with you I would rather buy a new arm for $100...the labor is going to be the same as putting in spacers I would think.
Also do you think that a bent A-arm would cause the car to be slightly lower on that side...like the 1/8 inch lower I have??
Lastly the thing that bothers me is. Before the off road at the track the caster was around 7 on both sides. Now the caster is 6 on the left and 9.8 on the right. Why would the caster be so high on the presumably unaffected right side...?????
DH
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,092
Likes: 120
From: orlando florida
St. Jude Donor '15
you could have also bent a spindle (steering knuckle) before an upper control arm. i own a suspension/alignment shop as well. and i went to hunter for factory training from them in missouri.
what i need to see is the SAI/IA of each side to tell. if the caster cannot get any closer than 4*, something is bent.
SAI - steering axis inclination angle formed from drawing an imaginary line from the top ball joint to the lower ball joint. then the angle of that line to vertical expressed in degrees.
IA - included angle SAI +/- camber
now, all this is assuming the alignment machine is in proper calibration. you do have a pull to the left which the alignment shows it also. but, 4* is huge. and it won't be a slight pull either.
what i need to see is the SAI/IA of each side to tell. if the caster cannot get any closer than 4*, something is bent.
SAI - steering axis inclination angle formed from drawing an imaginary line from the top ball joint to the lower ball joint. then the angle of that line to vertical expressed in degrees.
IA - included angle SAI +/- camber
now, all this is assuming the alignment machine is in proper calibration. you do have a pull to the left which the alignment shows it also. but, 4* is huge. and it won't be a slight pull either.
Last edited by mrr23; Jul 28, 2005 at 09:43 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,092
Likes: 120
From: orlando florida
St. Jude Donor '15
Originally Posted by eRiCdWoNg
I can attest to if the caster is out, the side with the shorter caster (in this case your left) the car will tend to pull that way. From what my alignment guy explained to me, it is because of the shorter wheel base on the left side, will pull the car left. Usually this is not an issue on something with skinny tires like a Camry or Accord, but with the wide tires of the C5, it needs a perfect alignment.
the alignment guy is incorrect about what caster is. has nothing to do with wheelbase. caster is the forward or rearward relationship of the upper ball joint to the lower ball joint when viewed from the side. here's a sheet i scanned explaining all the different angles.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,092
Likes: 120
From: orlando florida
St. Jude Donor '15
Originally Posted by yellow01
For one of mine I have washers on the front connection of the A-arm but not the rear. If you think about what this does, it moves the upper front a-arm out, effectively decreasing camber and increasing caster because the spindle mount will move backward slightly. With -1.5 I'm > 8* on both sides and dead even.