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Building 427 shortblock

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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 05:34 PM
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Default Building 427 shortblock

Has anyone here built their own 427 shortblock. I am looking at the prices for a 427 MTI shortblock (assembled) and it's about $2K more than buying the individual pieces and assembling yourself. I'm more than confident I can do the assembly (done many engines in the past). Just wondering if someone else has done this or am I missing some hidden cost. Machining here (honing/balancing) is only ~$500. Even the Lunati Stroker kits seem to cost substantially more than buying the crank/rods/pistons/rings/bearings seperate. Am I just missing something???

Derrick
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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 08:10 PM
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I would like to know the same thing. I am thinking about building a 408, I have a free 6.0l Iron block that I was going to use. The problem is you don't hear of too many people doing it their self. It might be an LS1, but it is still just a motor. Any help would be great.
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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 10:06 PM
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Here's a price list for shortblocks...

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...20&forum_id=86
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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by tazinhawaii
Has anyone here built their own 427 shortblock. I am looking at the prices for a 427 MTI shortblock (assembled) and it's about $2K more than buying the individual pieces and assembling yourself. I'm more than confident I can do the assembly (done many engines in the past). Just wondering if someone else has done this or am I missing some hidden cost. Machining here (honing/balancing) is only ~$500. Even the Lunati Stroker kits seem to cost substantially more than buying the crank/rods/pistons/rings/bearings seperate. Am I just missing something???

Derrick

I would not build your own short block for the cost savings alone, I would do it mainly for the experience. If you are NOT interested in the experience and knowledge, then any savings you might experience from building it yourself will be offset by having an engine that was not from a major builder (MTI, LPE, LME, etc.) READ LOWER RESALE


I am going to do a 410 CID iron block this winter and I will do a full detail build how-to. I expect to pay more than a crate engine because of all the tools (bore gage) and everything else, but I am hoping to capitalize on the knowledge
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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 10:40 PM
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w/ the alum blocks you need to resleeve. IM sure you do w/ iron too. that is an additional cost too. Other then that, you can build it yourself w/ some good measuring tools and torque wrenches.
dave
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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TT_Vert
w/ the alum blocks you need to resleeve. IM sure you do w/ iron too. that is an additional cost too. Other then that, you can build it yourself w/ some good measuring tools and torque wrenches.
dave

There is no resleeving with an iron block as long as you do not go beyond a 4.06 bore ...a 4.04 is sitting right next to me..
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Old Sep 19, 2005 | 11:13 PM
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you can bore the iron blocks .060" over? Dont you need to sonic test them first?

|Dave
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Old Sep 20, 2005 | 01:12 AM
  #8  
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Built my 408.




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Old Sep 20, 2005 | 01:35 AM
  #9  
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That was an awesome list for shortblocks in the other post. But this is what I've put together for prices to build my own 427 LS1.

Block $2999 (speed inc. 2399 + 600 core)
Diamond piston set $586
Diamond piston rings $180
Lunati forged rods $690
Eagle forged crank $990
Bearings $70

Total - $5515 plus machine work (about $500)

So, I'm still trying to figure out why an assembled shortblock is so much more. I must be missing something in this equation. I already have all the other parts for this build (AFR 225cc Heads, Comp Cams Cam, Kooks 1-7/8" headers, A&A supercharger kit, and the other stock parts from the LS6).

Also, Lunati's 427 stroker kit is about $3800. Why? The individual parts are only $2500. Geez, nothing seems to make sense here.

Just looking to see if I'm out to lunch here on thinking this is right.

Thanks,
Derrick
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Old Sep 20, 2005 | 02:43 AM
  #10  
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I built my first forged motor, and because of the parts ordering, machining, re-measuring, second wave of ordering, waiting for machine work, waiting for parts to ship, and doing it on the weekends, it took three months. Plus I had to buy more tools than I expected, which were harder to find than I thought, like piston ring filer and the right size solid piston ring compressor. Some measurements that I thought were spot-on were double-checked by the machine shop, and they had to hone out the pistons and rods for the full floating pins.

The machine work is a little more than you may expect, since they should also balance the rotating assembly, line hone the crank bore and cam bore, check head and pan surfaces, magnaflux the iron parts, clean out the threads, and double-check all the clearances that you already checked. In my case the machine shop recommended tighter stock clearance bearings instead of what I ordered since my crank wasn't worn at all.

Also you're missing the studs, gasket kit, timing chain, camshaft, oil pump, and lifters that are usually included, that's at least $1,000 there. My big regret in building my forged motor is that I didn't coat anything. I should've got coated pistons (low-friction coating on the skirt and thermal coating on the pistons), thermal coated cylinder chambers and ports, and coated bearings (probably another $750). Diamond pistons are rated to 15psi max boost, I brought mine to 17psi and toasted them, a thermal coating would have been insurance against that.

A little more research, and I would've found that top ring space is very important with boost, since the top ring land is the weak point on a piston. The bigger the space, the stronger the ring land, but you increase the gas volume (change the CR) and unburned gas. There are custom pistons for turbo applications, for example Mahle makes coated turbo pistons which are good for high boost applications, these are different pistons than the standard LS1 Mahle forged coated pistons.

There's also the expertise. I talked to Ross pistons today about max boost rating of their pistons, and their tech calculated compression ratio beyond what their online calculator does. He accounted for things I didn't think consider, the volume of the top ring land space and the actual gasket bore, not just thickness (gasket bore isn't cylinder size). The same kind of expertise would be found in an engine builder. Experience builds intuition, which is knowing something but not always being able to explain it.

Last edited by blu00rdstr; Sep 20, 2005 at 02:49 AM.
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Old Sep 20, 2005 | 10:19 AM
  #11  
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If you factor in all of the 'little' things like blu00rdstr mentioned and also consider the likelihood that the motor will last longer if built by an LS1 expert I think the markup is very reasonable.

Good luck with the 427 project.

Mark
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Old Sep 20, 2005 | 11:10 AM
  #12  
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You can save money by building your own motor. Most people don't have the knollenge or the tools to complete a major project. There are a ton of little tricks, that us tunners learn after building a 100 motors. But most of those tricks can be found on the net. The cost of running a shop is the reason for the added cost. We all love working around these cars, but we still need to put food on the table. A engine from tear down-to ready for the car, takes a lot of time! Time is where the cost comes.

Randy
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Old Sep 30, 2005 | 09:45 AM
  #13  
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Randy is correct, there are a few tricks that most engine builders do with out even thinking about it. Also as Randy said with a little patience and research building your own engine can be done! The reason I jumped in on this is, we can help in a few different ways. For one I can offer you a balanced rotating assembly for any ci you are wanting to build. If you have not purchased a block, you can buy one from us, and we will do the machine work for you. After that we will ship it to you so you can assemble your engine. In fact if you did already have a block you could ship it to us, we would machine it and return it to you! SDPC has alot to offer, and will do anything to help!!
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Old Sep 30, 2005 | 10:09 AM
  #14  
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Thought I would post this sale that we are having. Please let me know if I can help with anything

Forged Piston Upgrade Kit - LS1/LS6 5.7L
Upgrade your stock short block with a new set of Speed-Pro forged pistons, Sealed-Power moly rings, Clevite77 bearings, and a new set of high performance rod bolts from ARP for your stock rods.
1. Forged Flat Top w/2VR, 3.897” or 3.906” Bore Sizes (stock pin dia. 0.944”)*
2. Sealed Power Moly Ring Set (1.5/1.5/3.0mm)
3. ARP HP 8740 Steel Rod Bolts
4. Clevite 77 Bearings (specify - std, .010, or .020 sizes)
#KITSD32621FS 3.898” - Stock Bore Piston Kit $599.95
#KITSD32621F25 3.906” – Piston Kit $599.95

Forged Piston and Ring Combo - LS1/LS6 5.7L
Need just the pistons and the rings to upgrade your stock short block? For under $500 you can upgrade to a quality forged piston with moly-graphite coated skirts and a set of rings to match!
1. Forged Flat Top w/2VR, 3.897” or 3.906” Bore Sizes (stock pin dia. 0.944”)*
2. Sealed Power Moly Ring Set (1.5/1.5/3.0mm)
#KITSD12621FS 3.898” Bore Piston & Ring Kit $498.00
#KITSD12621F25 3.906” Bore Piston & Ring Kit $498.00

*Pistons are press-fit application only.

Forged Pistons, Rings, and HD I-Beam Connecting Rod Combo - LS1/LS6 5.7L
Best buy on the planet! JE premium forged light weight pistons (over 25g lighter than the stock piston and pin), Speed-Pro piston rings from A&C, and a set of Scat I-Beam 4340 rods will put your 5.7 into the indestructible zone!
1. Scat 4340 I-Beam Floating-Pin with ARP 3/8” Cap Screw – 6.125” Length
2. Premium Speed-Pro File-Fit Rings
3. Super Light Weight JE Flat Top Pistons – 3.905” Bore
#KITSD24883J JE Piston Rod Combo for 5.7L $799.95



Connecting Rods and Crankshafts
Looking for a stroker crank and rods to match? SDPC has the largest on-hand supply of GEN3 connecting rods and crankshafts in the USA. From mild to wild, we have the correct crank and rods to match your driving needs and horsepower output. Our rods are specific to the GEN3 engine! We showed the aftermarket manufacturers the differences between GEN1 and GEN3 rods. You can count on the engine professionals at SDPC to stock the best components in the industry. We do the research so you can go racing!



LS1/LS6/LS2 Connecting Rods
Scat I-Beam

We asked for it and we got it! We wanted a premium 4340 steel, I-Beam design (to keep the rod weight as low as possible) with cap-screw bolts and a connecting rod that was a serious upgrade from the stock rod without breaking the bank – Scat delivered!
1. 4340 Forged Steel I-Beam Design, 6.125” Length
2. Average Rod Weight is Approximately 590g – Light Weight!
3. Full-Floating Bronze-Bushed Pin End, fits 0.927” Diameter Pins
4. Premium ARP 3/8” Cap Screw Bolts for Maximum Strength
#SD6125F7 GEN3&4 6.125” I-Beam Rod, 0.927” Pin $298.00/set

Crower Sportsman I-Beam Rod
One of the oldest names in the Performance Industry, Crower! Made in the USA, quality I-Beam design with premium cap-screw bolts and a light weight design coupled with Crower’s exact tolerances ensure the dependability you need for a trip to the winner’s circle.
5. 4340 Forged Steel I-Beam Design, 6.125” Length
6. Full-Floating Bronze-Bushed Pin End, fits 0.927” Diameter Pins
CRO93273B8 GEN3&4 6.125” I-Beam Rod, 0.927” Pin $489.00/set

Scat H-Beam
H-Beam rods are designed to provide extra strength for high HP applications and added insurance when required; these Scat rods are good for upto 800hp!
1. 4340 Steel H-beam Design, 6.125” Length, 0.927” Floating Pin
2. Average Rod Weight is Approximately 635g
#2005 GEN3&4 6.125” H-Beam, 0.927” Pin $449.95/set


Comp-Star H-Beam
Attention to detail and extra machine work make the Comp-Star a proven performer for H-Beam rods. This rod is used by top quality machine shops across the USA.
3. 4340 Steel H-beam Design, 6.125” Length, 0.927” Floating Pin
4. Light Weight Design, Approximately 615g
#CSC6125DS2A2AH GEN3&4 6.125” H-Beam, 0.927” Pin $569.00/set

Lunati Pro-Mod I-Beam
Made in the USA! Bad boy I-Beam rod for serious horsepower applications up to 900hp! Aircraft quality 4340 steel and 7/16” ARP bolts are just a few of the upgrades for the Pro-Mod rod from Lunati to provide the extra strength needed for race applications.
#LUNLTE1 GEN3&4 6.125” I-Beam Rod, 0.927” Pin $659.00/set






Special Offer on Crankshafts with the purchase of a set of LUNLTE1 rods!!!
Buy a set of Lunati Pro-Mod LS1 rods #LUNLTE1 and the following offers apply;*

#LUNJO711ER – 4340 Pro-Series 4.000” Stroke Crank std. price $1929.00
LUNJO711ER plus one set of LUNLTE1 rods = $1995.00*
You save over $500.00!!!

#434640006100 – Eagle 4340 Crank 4.000” Stroke std. price $779.95
434640006100 plus one set of LUNLTE1 rods = $1079.00*
You save over $350.00!!!

*Offer good thru SDPC on-hand supply only, limit one purchase per customer. Not valid with any other promotions and/or discounts. When on-hand supply at SDPC of cranks and/or rods is gone, this offer is no longer valid.

Manley Billet Light Weight I-Beam Rods
When you need the best, then you need a set of Manley billet steel rods. Our most requested connecting rod from professional engine builders for extreme performance applications. No second guessing here!
1. Vacuum Degassed 4340 Steel for Superior Forgings
2. All Rods are Shot-Peened, 100% Magnufluxed and Inspected
3. 7/16” ARP 2000-Series Cap Bolts for Maximum Tensile Strength
4. Superior Strength to Weight Ratio, Average Weight is 600g!
MAN14359-8 GEN3&4 6.125” Billet Rod, 0.927” Pin $1069.00/set

Forged Pistons
We stock a large supply of performance forged pistons for the LS1 and LS2 style engines. From naturally aspirated combinations to low-compression twin turbo setups, we have the pistons you are looking for.

Speed-Pro 346ci Forged Piston
Easy forged upgrade for your stock 5.7L, premium forged alloy and coated skirts are standard features for this LS1 piston. Call for any tech info you might need.
1. For Stock Stroke(3.622”) and Stock Rod Length(6.098”)
2. 0.944” Pin Diameter - Press Fit ONLY!
3. Available for 3.898” and 3.906” bore sizes
4. Flat Top with 2-Valve Reliefs (-5cc)
L2621F 3.898” Bore 5.7L Forged Piston F/T 2VR $52.75ea
L2621F25MM 3.906” Bore 5.7L Forged Piston F/T 2VR $52.75ea

JE Forged Pistons
The 1st name in forged racing pistons! SDPC has been a top twenty JE dealer for over 20-years, we know pistons and JE makes the best. Demanded by NASCAR teams and the top NHRA racers, JE’s proven machining technologies and quality control make their forged pistons the number one choice for record breaking performance.

Large Dish 402ci for Blower/Turbo Applications
1. For 4.000” Stroke, 6.125” Rod, 1.117”CH, & 4.005” Bore
2. -34cc Dish, Approximately 8.5 to 1 w/66cc Heads
3. Machined for 1/16,1/16,3/16 Rings for Maximum Performance & Sealing
4. 0.927” X 2.250” HD Pins
#Call-SDPC 4.005” Bore 402ci, -34cc Dish $79.75ea
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Old Sep 30, 2005 | 11:56 AM
  #15  
tazinhawaii's Avatar
tazinhawaii
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Thanks,
I think I'm probably going with the C5R block. But your Lunati Pro series crank/rods deal looks interesting. I was leaning a little toward the Callies crank too. Is there much difference? Also, can the JE pistons come coated? I'm looking for 9.0-9.2:1 compression to run about 12-15 psi of boost (I ran 20 psi in my GN with 8.7:1). How long are these deals going for? I'm afraid to buy anything right now because I'm moving in mid October, and afraid things will get lost in shipping (In the Navy and I don't yet know my new address). Any military discounts???

Thanks,
Derrick

Oh, do you have a web site? I can't find it, but I'm pretty slow..
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Old Sep 30, 2005 | 12:35 PM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by tazinhawaii
Thanks,
I think I'm probably going with the C5R block. But your Lunati Pro series crank/rods deal looks interesting. I was leaning a little toward the Callies crank too. Is there much difference? Also, can the JE pistons come coated? I'm looking for 9.0-9.2:1 compression to run about 12-15 psi of boost (I ran 20 psi in my GN with 8.7:1). How long are these deals going for? I'm afraid to buy anything right now because I'm moving in mid October, and afraid things will get lost in shipping (In the Navy and I don't yet know my new address). Any military discounts???

Thanks,
Derrick

Oh, do you have a web site? I can't find it, but I'm pretty slow..
This sale will run until oct 31st or until we are out of stock. Callies and Lunati make a very nice crank. I would feel good making lots of hp on eather. I don't realy have any rome to give military disounts, but I will help out anytime I can. As for our web site, take a look at www.sdpc2000.com . If you can't find what you arte looking for let me know , I will do my best to get you what you need.
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