H/C- Problem?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
H/C- Problem?
I just had my new setup dyno tuned and we were a bit disappointed with the results. I was hoping to make 420-440rwhp with this setup but ended up with 414rwhp/398rwtq. Does anyone think that there is a problem or were my expectations just too high? My car is an '04 Z06 (stock dyno 356rwhp/349rwtq) with:
I did the installation myself but there were no glitches. I did not degree the camshaft but I am 100% certain that it was good "dot to dot" alignment and the the timing chain crank sprocket was installed for standard timing. I also did not check pushrod length (I just assumed there wouldn't be any need for a shorter rod).
Any feedback would be appreciated, Ken
AFR 205's 66cc unmilled (possible F/I in future)
Dual coil valve springs
Hardened Pushrods 7.4"
ARP Head Studs
Stock rockers
Stock lifters
Cometic 0.04" head gaskets
Comp Cams 224/228 .581/.588 114LSA
Rollmaster Double Roller timing chain
Ported LS6 oil pump
Dynatech Supermaxx LT's with cats
Stock LS6 intake manifold/TB
Blackwing air filter
The car runs great and feels strong but only put out 414rwhp/398rwtq on the dyno. The dyno curves looked very smooth and the car kept making power up to the 6800 RPM limiter (sorry, I don't have a hard copy). The A/F was tuned to about 12.6-12.8:1 and about 28 degs. of timing adv. with no KR (higher timing got us no extra power). Dual coil valve springs
Hardened Pushrods 7.4"
ARP Head Studs
Stock rockers
Stock lifters
Cometic 0.04" head gaskets
Comp Cams 224/228 .581/.588 114LSA
Rollmaster Double Roller timing chain
Ported LS6 oil pump
Dynatech Supermaxx LT's with cats
Stock LS6 intake manifold/TB
Blackwing air filter
I did the installation myself but there were no glitches. I did not degree the camshaft but I am 100% certain that it was good "dot to dot" alignment and the the timing chain crank sprocket was installed for standard timing. I also did not check pushrod length (I just assumed there wouldn't be any need for a shorter rod).
Any feedback would be appreciated, Ken
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,060
Likes: 290
From: Pasco WA
I don't think your expectations were too high. From everybody else's experiences, that setup should yield at least 440 to wheels. Is it a Mustang dyno? Only 60 rwhp from a H/C is not a real great deal, although I have heard of people doing even worse. Also a switch to SVO#30 injectors may help.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,737
Likes: 2
From: California USA
Originally Posted by Ken G
I just had my new setup dyno tuned and we were a bit disappointed with the results. I was hoping to make 420-440rwhp with this setup but ended up with 414rwhp/398rwtq. Does anyone think that there is a problem or were my expectations just too high? My car is an '04 Z06 (stock dyno 356rwhp/349rwtq) with:
I did the installation myself but there were no glitches. I did not degree the camshaft but I am 100% certain that it was good "dot to dot" alignment and the the timing chain crank sprocket was installed for standard timing. I also did not check pushrod length (I just assumed there wouldn't be any need for a shorter rod).
Any feedback would be appreciated, Ken
AFR 205's 66cc unmilled (possible F/I in future)
Dual coil valve springs
Hardened Pushrods 7.4"
ARP Head Studs
Stock rockers
Stock lifters
Cometic 0.04" head gaskets
Comp Cams 224/228 .581/.588 114LSA
Rollmaster Double Roller timing chain
Ported LS6 oil pump
Dynatech Supermaxx LT's with cats
Stock LS6 intake manifold/TB
Blackwing air filter
The car runs great and feels strong but only put out 414rwhp/398rwtq on the dyno. The dyno curves looked very smooth and the car kept making power up to the 6800 RPM limiter (sorry, I don't have a hard copy). The A/F was tuned to about 12.6-12.8:1 and about 28 degs. of timing adv. with no KR (higher timing got us no extra power). Dual coil valve springs
Hardened Pushrods 7.4"
ARP Head Studs
Stock rockers
Stock lifters
Cometic 0.04" head gaskets
Comp Cams 224/228 .581/.588 114LSA
Rollmaster Double Roller timing chain
Ported LS6 oil pump
Dynatech Supermaxx LT's with cats
Stock LS6 intake manifold/TB
Blackwing air filter
I did the installation myself but there were no glitches. I did not degree the camshaft but I am 100% certain that it was good "dot to dot" alignment and the the timing chain crank sprocket was installed for standard timing. I also did not check pushrod length (I just assumed there wouldn't be any need for a shorter rod).
Any feedback would be appreciated, Ken
I think your expectations were too high. ALso, maybe you have a really honest dyno. Your headers/and others are not going to be able to scavenge the exhaust flow as much as with a tighter lobe center. 28 degrees spark seems like way too much. I'm thinking 24-25 max. I see 7.4" PR, but what is the rocker preload? I never go more than 1/2-3/4 turn. I think your A/F is perfect--I don't like em any leaner. The AFR "205" heads have less port volume than a stock LS6 head. I'm not sure this is good for max power production. Also, comp cams stuff really doesn't need degreeing. Their cams, at least the 2 or 3 I've checked in other motors were spot on within +1/2 crank degree. You might make a pass at the track and check MPH. Sometimes dynoes have been know to give the wrong data, if you know what I mean.
How does your data log look? Fuel trims, etc?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,737
Likes: 2
From: California USA
Originally Posted by zeevette
I don't think your expectations were too high. From everybody else's experiences, that setup should yield at least 440 to wheels. Is it a Mustang dyno? Only 60 rwhp from a H/C is not a real great deal, although I have heard of people doing even worse. Also a switch to SVO#30 injectors may help.
1) The resistance of those injectors is different than the stock LS6 injector. 11 vs like 17ohms or so. This means the voltage offset table will need changing. Can be easily fixed I agree, just don't like them.
2) I have used these. After repeated run ups on a dyno, they tend to overheat and die. I changed to Lucas 30's and had MUCH better results in addition tot he fact that Lucas injectors have the same spray pattern and close to the same resistance as a stock injector. Thats my opinion based on using 19,24,30,36,42lb/hr SVO inj on other cars and 30's on my 03 Vette.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by zeevette
I don't think your expectations were too high. From everybody else's experiences, that setup should yield at least 440 to wheels. Is it a Mustang dyno? Only 60 rwhp from a H/C is not a real great deal, although I have heard of people doing even worse. Also a switch to SVO#30 injectors may help.
Thanks, Ken
Drifting
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,471
Likes: 1
From: Pensacola FL
I have a 224/581 with stock LS6 heads on a 114 and made 389. I am also running 28 degrees. I would expect around 410-420 if I went to AFR's. I think you just went a little too mild on the cam for your expectations. 414 is nothing to be disappointed with. That's damn strong it it probably idles close to stock, like mine. It's hard to get the car to hook up with much over 400 anyway. This is just my opinion as I have been kicking around the idea of AFR's. You have a great combo, and I think 60 rwhp is damn good 
Scott
Scott
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by 427CPE
I think your expectations were too high. ALso, maybe you have a really honest dyno. Your headers/and others are not going to be able to scavenge the exhaust flow as much as with a tighter lobe center. 28 degrees spark seems like way too much. I'm thinking 24-25 max. I see 7.4" PR, but what is the rocker preload? I never go more than 1/2-3/4 turn. I think your A/F is perfect--I don't like em any leaner. The AFR "205" heads have less port volume than a stock LS6 head. I'm not sure this is good for max power production. Also, comp cams stuff really doesn't need degreeing. Their cams, at least the 2 or 3 I've checked in other motors were spot on within +1/2 crank degree. You might make a pass at the track and check MPH. Sometimes dynoes have been know to give the wrong data, if you know what I mean.
How does your data log look? Fuel trims, etc?
How does your data log look? Fuel trims, etc?
As for going to the track, that is a big
for me. The second I start racing again I won't be happy until I run a particular number. The only problem with that is that the number always gets lower every week .Thanks, Ken
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by 99 The Hard Way
I have a 224/581 with stock LS6 heads on a 114 and made 389. I am also running 28 degrees. I would expect around 410-420 if I went to AFR's. I think you just went a little too mild on the cam for your expectations. 414 is nothing to be disappointed with. That's damn strong it it probably idles close to stock, like mine. It's hard to get the car to hook up with much over 400 anyway. This is just my opinion as I have been kicking around the idea of AFR's. You have a great combo, and I think 60 rwhp is damn good
Scott
Scott
-Ken
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,836
Likes: 110
From: El Paso TX.
i think your CR is hurting you. i don't think you were expecting too much, hell i dynoed 420 rwhp and 396 rwtq with a F13 cam and my heads have never been off the car. my car is also an 04 Z.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by algZO6
i think your CR is hurting you. i don't think you were expecting too much, hell i dynoed 420 rwhp and 396 rwtq with a F13 cam and my heads have never been off the car. my car is also an 04 Z.
BTW, those are great numbers for a cam car!
, Ken
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 6,253
Likes: 222
From: Farmington CT
Cruise-In VII Veteran
it would be interesting to see if a larger cam(g5x3ish)would make up the difference in power, what's the CR w/ the new afr setup? i'll be going to westport tomorrow and there a dozen or so afr/cam/lt cars putting down 450rwhp, i'll have to see what which heads they are running
btw-interested in the westport gathering?
congrats on the install good to see other locals doing their own wrenching 
btw-interested in the westport gathering?
congrats on the install
good to see other locals doing their own wrenching
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by connecticut
it would be interesting to see if a larger cam(g5x3ish)would make up the difference in power, what's the CR w/ the new afr setup? i'll be going to westport tomorrow and there a dozen or so afr/cam/lt cars putting down 450rwhp, i'll have to see what which heads they are running
btw-interested in the westport gathering?
congrats on the install good to see other locals doing their own wrenching
btw-interested in the westport gathering?
congrats on the install
good to see other locals doing their own wrenching With the unmilled 66cc AFR's and the 0.04" Cometic gaskets on the stock bottom end, I think I'm running somewhere around 10.2:1 CR. If I had 0.024" taken off that would put me somewhere around 11:1 (I would need to run the numbers on smokemup.com to be sure). If you don't mind, ask around tomorrow and see what people are running.
Thanks for the invitation but we've got our neighborhood Halloween party for all of the kids tomorrow (I missed my two sons' soccer games today to go get the car tuned so I don't want to miss the party). I hope you guys have great weather!
, Ken
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,635
Likes: 2
From: Aloha, Oregon
Lean out the AFR to 13.0:1, you might pick up a little more. other than that your numbers are commensurate to the cam you're using. If you're gonna pop the heads off to mill them for more CR then you might as well pop in a bigger cam. 232/240 .590 114 will fit without worries of p/v clearance as long as you dont take off more than .010 mill. Personally, I would leave the heads on and just do a different cam like the one I mentioned. That plus Speed Density tuning and you will yield sweet results.
Robert
www.gen3motorsports.com
Robert
www.gen3motorsports.com
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,634
Likes: 15
From: IL, Chicago area.
St. Jude Donor '14-'15-'16
I think your about right on. I have LS6 heads not milled with 2.02/1.57 valves lightly ported/polished and bowl work done, my cam is 581/581 224/224 on a 115LSA and I was making 413rwhp 397rwtq using a LS6 manifold before I put in 4.10's.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by rwj383
Lean out the AFR to 13.0:1, you might pick up a little more. other than that your numbers are commensurate to the cam you're using. If you're gonna pop the heads off to mill them for more CR then you might as well pop in a bigger cam. 232/240 .590 114 will fit without worries of p/v clearance as long as you dont take off more than .010 mill. Personally, I would leave the heads on and just do a different cam like the one I mentioned. That plus Speed Density tuning and you will yield sweet results.
Robert
www.gen3motorsports.com
Robert
www.gen3motorsports.com
Originally Posted by PHPD7102
I think your about right on. I have LS6 heads not milled with 2.02/1.57 valves lightly ported/polished and bowl work done, my cam is 581/581 224/224 on a 115LSA and I was making 413rwhp 397rwtq using a LS6 manifold before I put in 4.10's.
Thanks, Ken
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 334
Likes: 3
From: Canton CT
Originally Posted by BT-01-vette
Contact ECS, mine was milled to 59cc's and I have basic bolt on's. I would think your results would be higher. Good luck
Thanks, Ken
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 0
From: TurtleCreek Twp Ohio
Cruise-In III Veteran
I agree that you have less power the I would have expected.
I have old technology LS1 heads (Cartek stage II from 2000), small cam (218/222) average headers (FLP long tubes) and I got 409/390 on my 99 C5. With ARF's and a bigger cam I would have expected at least 20 more, though I do have a better CAI in my opinion (Vararam vs. your Blackwing) I would not think it would make up that much room.
I have old technology LS1 heads (Cartek stage II from 2000), small cam (218/222) average headers (FLP long tubes) and I got 409/390 on my 99 C5. With ARF's and a bigger cam I would have expected at least 20 more, though I do have a better CAI in my opinion (Vararam vs. your Blackwing) I would not think it would make up that much room.