how much will shorty headers limit my hp?
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
From: Irvine / Rancho Cucamonga CA
how much will shorty headers limit my hp?
as opposed to long tubes, throughout the entire powerband...and for future mods i was thinking possibly a vortech s/c. is the difference going to be really noticeable...even with the vortech?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,398
Likes: 2
I am at the same point wondering if I am gonna go shorty headers only because I need to stay 100% smog legal and these are the only ones I want since I frequently get harassed by popo to pop my hood looking for illegal mods. I know I will only gain maybe 10 rwhp with them but anything is better than stock.
I refuse to spend the bucks they want for the little buggers new and am waiting for a used set to come up.
I refuse to spend the bucks they want for the little buggers new and am waiting for a used set to come up.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 1,018
Likes: 52
From: Deltona Fl.
headers
I'm not sure shorty headers do anything for you except save some wieght. What long tubes do is scavange the exhaust(pull) the exhaust
out so that the engine pistons do not work as hard pushing it out.
This is where long get horsepower, they don't actually make horsepower
the save horsepower.
out so that the engine pistons do not work as hard pushing it out.
This is where long get horsepower, they don't actually make horsepower
the save horsepower.
I am at the same point wondering if I am gonna go shorty headers only because I need to stay 100% smog legal and these are the only ones I want since I frequently get harassed by popo to pop my hood looking for illegal mods. I know I will only gain maybe 10 rwhp with them but anything is better than stock.
I refuse to spend the bucks they want for the little buggers new and am waiting for a used set to come up.
I refuse to spend the bucks they want for the little buggers new and am waiting for a used set to come up.
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 9,037
Likes: 88
From: Granby, MA
Cruise-In 1, 3, 9. 10 & 11 Veteran
oh definitely.....ever here of a Z06 or ZR1...both production cars that do just that over 500hp on stock manifolds.
There is always more then one way to skin a cat. I know being in california you can't get away with the long tubes easily....but you can still get to your goal by doing other mods that are legal.
There is always more then one way to skin a cat. I know being in california you can't get away with the long tubes easily....but you can still get to your goal by doing other mods that are legal.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,398
Likes: 2
With a s/c and no headers yes it is easy as I was at 525 on dyno being tuned very conservatively with not a lot of timing and 552 on a different dyno a few weeks later just checking a/f. I'm totally stock cept for Vortech.
If you only do heads/cam then you really need to have long tubes to get the numbers up there.
If you only do heads/cam then you really need to have long tubes to get the numbers up there.
Last edited by briann510; Sep 6, 2008 at 03:50 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,398
Likes: 2
I unfortunately have to deal with the smog police around here and just last night got pulled over and asked to pop the hood for an inspection. I love it though cause they are obviously pissed they got nothing on me under the hood. The popo last night asked me why I needed that much hp and I replied "cause if someone comes up next to me and wants to race I am prepared". Man talk about a dirty look...and he knew I was serious.
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Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '17
Le Mans Master
Joined: Mar 2002
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St. Jude Donor '17
Exactly I will not waste my money on a new set, but if I can snag a set for a couple hundred its no big deal.
I unfortunately have to deal with the smog police around here and just last night got pulled over and asked to pop the hood for an inspection. I love it though cause they are obviously pissed they got nothing on me under the hood. The popo last night asked me why I needed that much hp and I replied "cause if someone comes up next to me and wants to race I am prepared". Man talk about a dirty look...and he knew I was serious.
I unfortunately have to deal with the smog police around here and just last night got pulled over and asked to pop the hood for an inspection. I love it though cause they are obviously pissed they got nothing on me under the hood. The popo last night asked me why I needed that much hp and I replied "cause if someone comes up next to me and wants to race I am prepared". Man talk about a dirty look...and he knew I was serious.
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 7
From: Valencia CA
NO....
With capitol letters and boldfaced to get your attention.
With stock cubes 500 RWHP requires a perfectly sorted out aggressive combo with money spent elsewhere on lightweight clutch/flywheel components, EWP, UD pulley, and every "T" crossed and "I" dotted.....not to mention I hope you have a big budget because it wont happen for less than 10K.
Most people dont come close to that figure with long tubes....
A shorty header is no more effective than a stock exhaust manifold which means versus an efficient longtube design it will hold you back about 25 RWHP.
You would be lucky to see in the low mid 400's and that would require a fair amount of dinero....
Be realistic....look around and see what your piers are doing. Likely you will fall right smack in the middle of their results and few if any are making big power with stock manifolds or shorties.
As many others have already recommended....don't waste your money....its better spent elsewhere in the build.
-Tony
With capitol letters and boldfaced to get your attention.
With stock cubes 500 RWHP requires a perfectly sorted out aggressive combo with money spent elsewhere on lightweight clutch/flywheel components, EWP, UD pulley, and every "T" crossed and "I" dotted.....not to mention I hope you have a big budget because it wont happen for less than 10K.
Most people dont come close to that figure with long tubes....
A shorty header is no more effective than a stock exhaust manifold which means versus an efficient longtube design it will hold you back about 25 RWHP.
You would be lucky to see in the low mid 400's and that would require a fair amount of dinero....
Be realistic....look around and see what your piers are doing. Likely you will fall right smack in the middle of their results and few if any are making big power with stock manifolds or shorties.
As many others have already recommended....don't waste your money....its better spent elsewhere in the build.
-Tony
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,398
Likes: 2
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
Last edited by briann510; Sep 6, 2008 at 04:50 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 4,501
Likes: 1
From: TAMPA BAY FL.
Cops here in California can request to see under your hood anytime they feel like it. Its been done for 20+ years around here that I can remember. Lately its very common if you get pulled over and your car even looks suspect it might have under hood mods you will get the hood popped. If you refuse it can be towed (ask me how I know this) or they will write you up for ecery little detail they can find and then send you to a referee station to have under the hood checked. Either way your gonna get it checked.
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,398
Likes: 2
I thought the peeples republik of Kal-e-fornia was the land of the free and the champions of the constitution? What ever happened to free speech? The collective public in that state need to drag their tails out from between their legs and take back the store from these scumbag politicians and bunny huggers.
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 9,037
Likes: 88
From: Granby, MA
Cruise-In 1, 3, 9. 10 & 11 Veteran
NO....
With capitol letters and boldfaced to get your attention.
With stock cubes 500 RWHP requires a perfectly sorted out aggressive combo with money spent elsewhere on lightweight clutch/flywheel components, EWP, UD pulley, and every "T" crossed and "I" dotted.....not to mention I hope you have a big budget because it wont happen for less than 10K.
Most people dont come close to that figure with long tubes....
A shorty header is no more effective than a stock exhaust manifold which means versus an efficient longtube design it will hold you back about 25 RWHP.
You would be lucky to see in the low mid 400's and that would require a fair amount of dinero....
Be realistic....look around and see what your piers are doing. Likely you will fall right smack in the middle of their results and few if any are making big power with stock manifolds or shorties.
As many others have already recommended....don't waste your money....its better spent elsewhere in the build.
-Tony
With capitol letters and boldfaced to get your attention.
With stock cubes 500 RWHP requires a perfectly sorted out aggressive combo with money spent elsewhere on lightweight clutch/flywheel components, EWP, UD pulley, and every "T" crossed and "I" dotted.....not to mention I hope you have a big budget because it wont happen for less than 10K.
Most people dont come close to that figure with long tubes....
A shorty header is no more effective than a stock exhaust manifold which means versus an efficient longtube design it will hold you back about 25 RWHP.
You would be lucky to see in the low mid 400's and that would require a fair amount of dinero....
Be realistic....look around and see what your piers are doing. Likely you will fall right smack in the middle of their results and few if any are making big power with stock manifolds or shorties.
As many others have already recommended....don't waste your money....its better spent elsewhere in the build.
-Tony
Typical stock GM C5 with a supercharger 460-500+rwhp depending on the supercharger and the tune. This of course with an upgraded fuel system also, but I have seen and read this done on stock exhaust cars with no change in the exhaust systems at all.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Sep 6, 2008 at 05:47 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta GA
Cops here in California can request to see under your hood anytime they feel like it. Its been done for 20+ years around here that I can remember. Lately its very common if you get pulled over and your car even looks suspect it might have under hood mods you will get the hood popped. If you refuse it can be towed (ask me how I know this) or they will write you up for ecery little detail they can find and then send you to a referee station to have under the hood checked. Either way your gonna get it checked.
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,554
Likes: 33
From: Not on either liberal coast.
I think this original posters question got way off track... 
Short tubes vs. long tubes...again...the debate never ends. Obviously, they won't provide the improvements over long tubes, but they still have their distinct advantages.
A 10hp improvement over stock is better than nothing. The ease of installation by a DIY owner, no expensive tune required, no further modifications to the oem exhaust, nicer appearance, maybe a different sound and completely CARB legal are great advantages in my opinion.
Aside from the emissions requirements of CA (and other states), there is the weight savings off the front end. That's significant. Better to remove weight than to add weight.
In the original posters situation, he plans to make further changes (VORTECH), so maybe suggesting he wait until those changes are made and go with "best" long tubes would be a better reply than the off topic rant...
Short tubes vs. long tubes...again...the debate never ends. Obviously, they won't provide the improvements over long tubes, but they still have their distinct advantages.
A 10hp improvement over stock is better than nothing. The ease of installation by a DIY owner, no expensive tune required, no further modifications to the oem exhaust, nicer appearance, maybe a different sound and completely CARB legal are great advantages in my opinion.
Aside from the emissions requirements of CA (and other states), there is the weight savings off the front end. That's significant. Better to remove weight than to add weight.
In the original posters situation, he plans to make further changes (VORTECH), so maybe suggesting he wait until those changes are made and go with "best" long tubes would be a better reply than the off topic rant...
Last edited by hotwheels57; Sep 6, 2008 at 06:50 PM.
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 9,037
Likes: 88
From: Granby, MA
Cruise-In 1, 3, 9. 10 & 11 Veteran
Cops here in California can request to see under your hood anytime they feel like it. Its been done for 20+ years around here that I can remember. Lately its very common if you get pulled over and your car even looks suspect it might have under hood mods you will get the hood popped. If you refuse it can be towed (ask me how I know this) or they will write you up for ecery little detail they can find and then send you to a referee station to have under the hood checked. Either way your gonna get it checked.
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
My son was told they pulled him over just because they saw his over sized tach and stickers in his window. When he refused to open the hood they called a flat bed and were gonna tow him to have the car inspected elsewhere (it didnt happen cause I showed up and made matters worse for the cops that pulled him over and he was eventually let go).The cop told us to pull the stickers off the car and get rid of the tach and they wouldnt hassle him near as much.
not to get off topic on this...but I would love to hear from a law enforcement person on this. Iam sorry but california or not, this is complete harrassment any way shape you look at it. Any person tells me to remove stickers so I won't get harrassed is going to be getting a nice court sommons in the mail. Law enforcement is there to protect us and enforce the laws, not to be harrassing citizens for having stickers on there cars. Sorry there is no law about having stickers on your car.
I can tell you one state I will never be moving too. Sounds like the law enforcement there needs to go back to square one and figure out what they are wearing badges for. This is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,554
Likes: 33
From: Not on either liberal coast.
not to get off topic on this...but I would love to hear from a law enforcement person on this. Iam sorry but california or not, this is complete harrassment any way shape you look at it. Any person tells me to remove stickers so I won't get harrassed is going to be getting a nice court sommons in the mail. Law enforcement is there to protect us and enforce the laws, not to be harrassing citizens for having stickers on there cars. Sorry there is no law about having stickers on your car.
I can tell you one state I will never be moving too. Sounds like the law enforcement there needs to go back to square one and figure out what they are wearing badges for. This is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of.
I can tell you one state I will never be moving too. Sounds like the law enforcement there needs to go back to square one and figure out what they are wearing badges for. This is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard of.
Research the motor vehicle laws and find out if the officers were "harassing" or enforcing state motor vehicle statutes.
If the stickers are on the glass as stated and obstructing the vision of the driver, it's (probably) a violation in every state.
In CA, that motor vehicle code is #26708...
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26708.htm
This is a compilation of the CA motor vehicle laws, check out #27151, which pertains to the modification of exhaust systems. Most states have similar stringent laws, although they might not be enforced to the same standards. Most states don't have the air quality issues that CA has.
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd12c5a2.htm
Stickers on the exterior sheet metal are not a violation that I'm aware of (w/ 26 years LE experience). Check your state statutes though.
Aside from having (silly in some peoples opinion) stickers all over your car, why draw more attention to yourself. That was actually a very good suggestion that the officers offered to the owner/driver of the car to avoid any future conversations. Stealth is better.
Don't blame law enforcement for enforcement of statutes that law makers pass legislation.
Last edited by hotwheels57; Sep 6, 2008 at 07:49 PM.