Sand paper on my paint??
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 549
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From: Castle Pines Colorado
Sand paper on my paint?? Update Photos
"I have an 02 black coupe and I have horrible swirl marks in it. I took it to a body shop that I think I can trust and the manager told me the only way to remove them is to use a fine grade sand paper and effectivly remove a top layer of the clear coat. He said they are not that deep and that they should come out Ok after they sand and detail the car.
Should this be making my stomach turn over or is this my only real solution. I really don't like the thought of not having a clear coat and I'm worried the fine sanding might cause that. Also he wants to charge me $300 for it. Thoughts??"
I Figured I would update the thread here at the begining. I picked up my car the other day from the dealer and I'm lost for words. The swirls marks which they said they would get out are still there and not any better. The worse part about it is that there are paint chips all over the car. It looks at first if a white towl was shaken over the car but when you try to remove the little towl bits you quickly see that the paint is missing. Also on the rear panel It looks like they sanded to hard. I took some wax on a towl and after I rubbed it on nothing but black came off. I think they burned through my clear coat and down to the paint.
I have no idea what the dealer did but I just paid $300 to have my paint destroyed. Although the chips are not huge they still take away from the car. Let me know what you think?
http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/r...Paint%20Chips/
Should this be making my stomach turn over or is this my only real solution. I really don't like the thought of not having a clear coat and I'm worried the fine sanding might cause that. Also he wants to charge me $300 for it. Thoughts??"
I Figured I would update the thread here at the begining. I picked up my car the other day from the dealer and I'm lost for words. The swirls marks which they said they would get out are still there and not any better. The worse part about it is that there are paint chips all over the car. It looks at first if a white towl was shaken over the car but when you try to remove the little towl bits you quickly see that the paint is missing. Also on the rear panel It looks like they sanded to hard. I took some wax on a towl and after I rubbed it on nothing but black came off. I think they burned through my clear coat and down to the paint.
I have no idea what the dealer did but I just paid $300 to have my paint destroyed. Although the chips are not huge they still take away from the car. Let me know what you think?
http://s490.photobucket.com/albums/r...Paint%20Chips/
Last edited by Smooth9883; Jan 11, 2009 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Photo's Update
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My thought is... take that money and go buy yourself a porter cable or flex and learn how to buff out your paint yourself. It's not as difficult as you think. Just takes time. That's what I did after I took it to a shop who "claimed to have buffed all of the scratches out of my hood". But they did nothing but charge me $100 saying "oh, we'll discount the cost, since we couldn't get it perfect". After looking at the car in the sun and seeing they did absolutely NOTHING, I went back, demanded a refund, and bought my own kit. Over the summer I detailed 4 cars.
If the scratches are VERY deep, then, yes, they may need to be lightly sanded w/smooth paper. (I forget what grit it is.) But MOST times you can get rid of scratches or at least buff most of them out with a buffer. I only sanded a couple of spots on my hood where someone let bird crap sit and etch the paint. Then I lightly buffed on top. One spot was deep into the clear, so I sanded it and smoothed it out, then put a little touch up on it, let it dry for a day or two and then buffed over it. There is also a good touch-up kit to fill deep scratches from Langka. Mid-America sells it.
If the scratches are VERY deep, then, yes, they may need to be lightly sanded w/smooth paper. (I forget what grit it is.) But MOST times you can get rid of scratches or at least buff most of them out with a buffer. I only sanded a couple of spots on my hood where someone let bird crap sit and etch the paint. Then I lightly buffed on top. One spot was deep into the clear, so I sanded it and smoothed it out, then put a little touch up on it, let it dry for a day or two and then buffed over it. There is also a good touch-up kit to fill deep scratches from Langka. Mid-America sells it.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: NJ
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If your saying they are just surface scratches, then there should be no need for sanding. Only a buffer.
The Corvette clearcoats are very hard and there are special polishes to use also. I used Wolfgang products on mine and it came out like glass.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/memb...-imgp0007.html
The Corvette clearcoats are very hard and there are special polishes to use also. I used Wolfgang products on mine and it came out like glass.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/memb...-imgp0007.html
Racer
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 256
Likes: 1
From: Delta BC
Check out the car care section of the forum (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/car-care-discussion-10/), I bought a PC kit with menzerna products from autogeeks and while it does take time the results are awesome. Post or search in there and you will get great responses/advice. The more time you put in the better it will be. With something like a PC you can't hurt your paint either, but you will need patience.
I tried on the hood of my DD civic and when I was comfortable I moved on to the vette. I wish I could have paid someone to do it, but that was the reason I was doing it myself as there were burn marks all throughout my paint from a buffer.
This might be the thread for you: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/car-...detail-it.html
I tried on the hood of my DD civic and when I was comfortable I moved on to the vette. I wish I could have paid someone to do it, but that was the reason I was doing it myself as there were burn marks all throughout my paint from a buffer.
This might be the thread for you: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/car-...detail-it.html
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Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Castle Pines Colorado
I might just do that. The scratches are not to deep but they are deep enough where a wax and bux will not get them out. Good to hear though that is seems OK to have fine sand paper used.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Not on either liberal coast.
First of all, check out the Detailing and Car Care forum on the main menu page. That's where some professionals hang out and can provide you with advice.
Buffing with compounds might be the best manner towards removal of the scratches.
If you've never done this yourself and/or lack the confidence to DIY, seek a professional detailer in your area. Color or wet sanding with very fine grit (1500-2000+) doesn't remove much clear, but it takes a technique to avoid more damage.
If that body shop sands through the clear coat into base coat, there's no way it will satisfy you. Base coat/clear coat paint is thin and not like the old enamel or lacquer paints of years ago.
In experienced hands most clear coats can be improved or repaired of minor imperfections, But, in inexperienced hands (or a hack shop), your paint will probably need another coat of clear...
Buffing with compounds might be the best manner towards removal of the scratches.
If you've never done this yourself and/or lack the confidence to DIY, seek a professional detailer in your area. Color or wet sanding with very fine grit (1500-2000+) doesn't remove much clear, but it takes a technique to avoid more damage.
If that body shop sands through the clear coat into base coat, there's no way it will satisfy you. Base coat/clear coat paint is thin and not like the old enamel or lacquer paints of years ago.
In experienced hands most clear coats can be improved or repaired of minor imperfections, But, in inexperienced hands (or a hack shop), your paint will probably need another coat of clear...
Last edited by hotwheels57; Jan 3, 2009 at 05:37 PM.
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I have an 02 black coupe and I have horrible swirl marks in it. I took it to a body shop that I think I can trust and the manager told me the only way to remove them is to use a fine grade sand paper and effectivly remove a top layer of the clear coat. He said they are not that deep and that they should come out Ok after they sand and detail the car.
Should this be making my stomach turn over or is this my only real solution. I really don't like the thought of not having a clear coat and I'm worried the fine sanding might cause that. Also he wants to charge me $300 for it. Thoughts??
Should this be making my stomach turn over or is this my only real solution. I really don't like the thought of not having a clear coat and I'm worried the fine sanding might cause that. Also he wants to charge me $300 for it. Thoughts??
Now, I would get a porter cable, like whats been suggested and some foam pads (I got my pads and machine polish and wax from Adams) and tackle it myself in an afternoon. If they are not too deep then you should be able to buff them out with no problem.
Those swirl marks are caused by automatic car wash's and cotton towels used to dry the car.
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6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2008
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From: Clayton Delaware
Hello,
I am new to this site, I am on my third vette now, an 01 Triple Black. I may not know much about Vette's, but, I do know paint.
Listen man, just leave that to the professionals. If the scratches are real bad, you will never get rid of them, weather you sand and buff, or just buff. You never really get rid of a scratch, the idea is just to hide it. The body shop told you to sand it and buff it, they are correct, but, if you sand too much, you will go through the factory clear, and then it's time for a repaint, about $ 400 per panel.
3M makes wet sand paper and all of the "compounds" needed to do the job. But, if you're going to buy all of this, you've just spent the same amount as it would have cost to get it done professionally. P1500 wet, followed by P2000 wet, followed by P3000 wet(3M calls it Trizact), followed by compounding with a wool pad, followed by polishing with a foam pad, followed by glaze with a foam poad, glaze by hand, and finished with a nice coat of wax. Oh yeah, don't forget the $200 DeWalt buffer ( DP849 is the one you want). We just spent $400 + and haven't touched the car yet....
I would take it to a local detail shop, ask around, ask to see some of theit work and for under $200, that thing will look nice. If you go to a bodyshop, those guys will probably charge 6 hours, at $50 an hour....$300. Go to the detail shop and save the aggrivation. Just a thought.
Keep a good coat of wax on it and it'll not get those ugly surface scratches, as bad. If it needs a repaint, make sure to tell them to use a "scratch resistant" clear. These new clears are harder than the older ones, and some will even reflow and get rid of surface scratches by themself. Sherwin Williams make a great self healing clear SRC2, check it out if you need to. Hopefully you won't "need too".
Good luck and keep it shiny side up!
I am new to this site, I am on my third vette now, an 01 Triple Black. I may not know much about Vette's, but, I do know paint.
Listen man, just leave that to the professionals. If the scratches are real bad, you will never get rid of them, weather you sand and buff, or just buff. You never really get rid of a scratch, the idea is just to hide it. The body shop told you to sand it and buff it, they are correct, but, if you sand too much, you will go through the factory clear, and then it's time for a repaint, about $ 400 per panel.
3M makes wet sand paper and all of the "compounds" needed to do the job. But, if you're going to buy all of this, you've just spent the same amount as it would have cost to get it done professionally. P1500 wet, followed by P2000 wet, followed by P3000 wet(3M calls it Trizact), followed by compounding with a wool pad, followed by polishing with a foam pad, followed by glaze with a foam poad, glaze by hand, and finished with a nice coat of wax. Oh yeah, don't forget the $200 DeWalt buffer ( DP849 is the one you want). We just spent $400 + and haven't touched the car yet....
I would take it to a local detail shop, ask around, ask to see some of theit work and for under $200, that thing will look nice. If you go to a bodyshop, those guys will probably charge 6 hours, at $50 an hour....$300. Go to the detail shop and save the aggrivation. Just a thought.
Keep a good coat of wax on it and it'll not get those ugly surface scratches, as bad. If it needs a repaint, make sure to tell them to use a "scratch resistant" clear. These new clears are harder than the older ones, and some will even reflow and get rid of surface scratches by themself. Sherwin Williams make a great self healing clear SRC2, check it out if you need to. Hopefully you won't "need too".
Good luck and keep it shiny side up!
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 22,798
Likes: 943
Hello,
I am new to this site, I am on my third vette now, an 01 Triple Black. I may not know much about Vette's, but, I do know paint.
Listen man, just leave that to the professionals. If the scratches are real bad, you will never get rid of them, weather you sand and buff, or just buff. You never really get rid of a scratch, the idea is just to hide it. The body shop told you to sand it and buff it, they are correct, but, if you sand too much, you will go through the factory clear, and then it's time for a repaint, about $ 400 per panel.
3M makes wet sand paper and all of the "compounds" needed to do the job. But, if you're going to buy all of this, you've just spent the same amount as it would have cost to get it done professionally. P1500 wet, followed by P2000 wet, followed by P3000 wet(3M calls it Trizact), followed by compounding with a wool pad, followed by polishing with a foam pad, followed by glaze with a foam poad, glaze by hand, and finished with a nice coat of wax. Oh yeah, don't forget the $200 DeWalt buffer ( DP849 is the one you want). We just spent $400 + and haven't touched the car yet....
I would take it to a local detail shop, ask around, ask to see some of theit work and for under $200, that thing will look nice. If you go to a bodyshop, those guys will probably charge 6 hours, at $50 an hour....$300. Go to the detail shop and save the aggrivation. Just a thought.
Keep a good coat of wax on it and it'll not get those ugly surface scratches, as bad. If it needs a repaint, make sure to tell them to use a "scratch resistant" clear. These new clears are harder than the older ones, and some will even reflow and get rid of surface scratches by themself. Sherwin Williams make a great self healing clear SRC2, check it out if you need to. Hopefully you won't "need too".
Good luck and keep it shiny side up!
I am new to this site, I am on my third vette now, an 01 Triple Black. I may not know much about Vette's, but, I do know paint.
Listen man, just leave that to the professionals. If the scratches are real bad, you will never get rid of them, weather you sand and buff, or just buff. You never really get rid of a scratch, the idea is just to hide it. The body shop told you to sand it and buff it, they are correct, but, if you sand too much, you will go through the factory clear, and then it's time for a repaint, about $ 400 per panel.
3M makes wet sand paper and all of the "compounds" needed to do the job. But, if you're going to buy all of this, you've just spent the same amount as it would have cost to get it done professionally. P1500 wet, followed by P2000 wet, followed by P3000 wet(3M calls it Trizact), followed by compounding with a wool pad, followed by polishing with a foam pad, followed by glaze with a foam poad, glaze by hand, and finished with a nice coat of wax. Oh yeah, don't forget the $200 DeWalt buffer ( DP849 is the one you want). We just spent $400 + and haven't touched the car yet....
I would take it to a local detail shop, ask around, ask to see some of theit work and for under $200, that thing will look nice. If you go to a bodyshop, those guys will probably charge 6 hours, at $50 an hour....$300. Go to the detail shop and save the aggrivation. Just a thought.
Keep a good coat of wax on it and it'll not get those ugly surface scratches, as bad. If it needs a repaint, make sure to tell them to use a "scratch resistant" clear. These new clears are harder than the older ones, and some will even reflow and get rid of surface scratches by themself. Sherwin Williams make a great self healing clear SRC2, check it out if you need to. Hopefully you won't "need too".
Good luck and keep it shiny side up!
Porter Cable $109
Polish's and pads $159.00
I painted cars for 5 years, unless the scratches are to the color, you can clean it up with the above products. I use these on my truck about 3-4 times a year and my truck looks better than new. The car stays in the garage so I only have to do it about once a year. So if your car is a DD and lives outside, I would invest in the equipment and the time to learn how to take care of your car(s) & trucks; you will be doing this more than once.
Last edited by Millenium Z06; Jan 3, 2009 at 07:16 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,761
Likes: 28
From: ontario Ontario
I've been polishing cars for a number of years now and have seen the goo d the bad and the ugly. It is very difficult and almost impossible to comment on the body shop since they are the only ones that have physically seen the car to asses how bad things are. You have some great suggestions above. But if I may add the following:
1) if you do decide to buy your own equipment then buy the best. Don't buy a crap machine because you WILL regret it. Make sure it is a variable speed. Learn the different compounds and foams pads and what they are each used for and then same for compounds. THEN and only then practice on a crappy car first. The speed of the buffer in the wrong hands can burn through paint faster than you can say oh s***! Buffing paint is not rocket science but it is time consuming to do it right. The main issue is that with time and patience you will have a sense of pride knowing you did your own car. When you are starting out I also suggest you mask all the edges of your car with painters tape at least so you avoid accidents by burning an edge of the panel. Door seams, hood seams etc. I have removed more swirl marks out of cars then I care to remember and most are black. it can be done if your willing to commint to it and not short cut it. Otherwise pay the professional and get it done properly and be done with it. (when I say professional I mean somebody who does this and only this for a living and not some fly by night shop who will burn your paint and cover it with wax). Good luck. If we were local I'd be happy to show you
1) if you do decide to buy your own equipment then buy the best. Don't buy a crap machine because you WILL regret it. Make sure it is a variable speed. Learn the different compounds and foams pads and what they are each used for and then same for compounds. THEN and only then practice on a crappy car first. The speed of the buffer in the wrong hands can burn through paint faster than you can say oh s***! Buffing paint is not rocket science but it is time consuming to do it right. The main issue is that with time and patience you will have a sense of pride knowing you did your own car. When you are starting out I also suggest you mask all the edges of your car with painters tape at least so you avoid accidents by burning an edge of the panel. Door seams, hood seams etc. I have removed more swirl marks out of cars then I care to remember and most are black. it can be done if your willing to commint to it and not short cut it. Otherwise pay the professional and get it done properly and be done with it. (when I say professional I mean somebody who does this and only this for a living and not some fly by night shop who will burn your paint and cover it with wax). Good luck. If we were local I'd be happy to show you
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,993
Likes: 7
From: LaPine Oregon
Practice on something else.............
All my cars get color sanded, over 300 of them , mainly to get the 'orange peel' surface finish off.
If you can feel the swirl marks with your finger nail , you're best off color sanding first , then follow thur with the proceedure to finish. Color sanding or wet sanding proceedures are easy to come by , so I won't bother repeating them.
No one can tell without actually looking as to what proceedure is best.
Color sanding was a must for all the early custom paint spray jobs with lacquer paints. Each coat was color sanded before applying the next coat to give that desired deep look.
If you wish to tackle this type of proceddure , please practice on a lesser valued car. There is a learning curve but certainly a learnable skill that shows its results.
If you can feel the swirl marks with your finger nail , you're best off color sanding first , then follow thur with the proceedure to finish. Color sanding or wet sanding proceedures are easy to come by , so I won't bother repeating them.
No one can tell without actually looking as to what proceedure is best.
Color sanding was a must for all the early custom paint spray jobs with lacquer paints. Each coat was color sanded before applying the next coat to give that desired deep look.
If you wish to tackle this type of proceddure , please practice on a lesser valued car. There is a learning curve but certainly a learnable skill that shows its results.
Last edited by dieseldave56; Jan 4, 2009 at 04:04 AM.
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 9,037
Likes: 88
From: Granby, MA
Cruise-In 1, 3, 9. 10 & 11 Veteran
well just adding....
I agree with all the other posts here about the sanding trick. If you have some scratches the sanding definitely helps and cuts down buffing time a lot. It is nothing to be scared about....read up about this in the car care section. I have never sanded or buffed a corvette in my life, but after reading all the posts about the procedure and trying it out on my 1994 sunbird I was truely amazed. I then did it to my 02 vette where I had some nasty scratches and some nasty water etchings that ate right through some of my layers of clear coat. I used 1000 grit automotive grade wet sanding paper. The first time you do this to your vette you will be scared to dealth...its looks pretty bad. But rest assured it all comes out in the end and the finish looks beautiful. The clear coat on the C5 is one of the toughest in the industry and it can be gently wet sanded and then a rotary buffer used on to bring back the showroom quality shine like it once had. You have to be careful and know the threshold of what scratches can be completely removed and what ones you can only improve on. I actually had a set of really deep down marks that where located under my emblems in the rear. I figured this was an excellent spot to sand a lot and see really where the threshold was. I by no means recommend you do that....instead test on a junker car. If you have access to a body panel or headlight cover from a C5 that would be the best. From my testing experience, what happens is you will get to a point where after you sand then buff, then sand and buff again...you will eventually get the nicks or scratches pretty level but then go through all the layers of clear and start to move the actual paint around. This will then fill in the scratches but will leave you with a spot that ends up not as shiny bright as the rest of the car. This because the clear has been all wiped away and you have literally burned the paint to move it around. This is obviously what you would want to avoid. Put your mind at ease....its no easy thing to do and before you get to this point...your common sense will kick in and you should get a feeling of...hmmmm I feel like I have been sanding and buffing this spot too long.
So to summarize....if your scratches are felt with your fingernail and you can see them as being a solid white or gray color and are more then a hairlength in thickness....these your only going to be able to improve upon and never fix. The surface scratches you will be able to remove. Its totally up to you though as far as who fixes them....yourself or a pro. The materials you will need are not cheap but you will always have them vs paying a one time fee for a pro to do it only to have more eventually come back and have to pay a pro again.
Good luck and be sure to check out the car care section....its how I learned. The guys from autogeek are the best and have all the supplies and tools you will need.
So to summarize....if your scratches are felt with your fingernail and you can see them as being a solid white or gray color and are more then a hairlength in thickness....these your only going to be able to improve upon and never fix. The surface scratches you will be able to remove. Its totally up to you though as far as who fixes them....yourself or a pro. The materials you will need are not cheap but you will always have them vs paying a one time fee for a pro to do it only to have more eventually come back and have to pay a pro again.
Good luck and be sure to check out the car care section....its how I learned. The guys from autogeek are the best and have all the supplies and tools you will need.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 4, 2009 at 11:08 AM.
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 1,850
From: NJ
2025 C8 of the Year Finalist - Modified
2023 C8 of the Year Finalist - Unmodified
2022 C7 of the Year Finalist - Modified
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Yes, he could pay a detailer or body shop 200-300 but if he takes the same 2-300 he can buy all the necessary equip and do it himself and both learn how to do it then next year when it's time to do it again, he wont be spending $2-300 again.
Porter Cable $109
Polish's and pads $159.00
I painted cars for 5 years, unless the scratches are to the color, you can clean it up with the above products. I use these on my truck about 3-4 times a year and my truck looks better than new. The car stays in the garage so I only have to do it about once a year. So if your car is a DD and lives outside, I would invest in the equipment and the time to learn how to take care of your car(s) & trucks; you will be doing this more than once.
Porter Cable $109
Polish's and pads $159.00
I painted cars for 5 years, unless the scratches are to the color, you can clean it up with the above products. I use these on my truck about 3-4 times a year and my truck looks better than new. The car stays in the garage so I only have to do it about once a year. So if your car is a DD and lives outside, I would invest in the equipment and the time to learn how to take care of your car(s) & trucks; you will be doing this more than once.
This is something I always wanted to learn and finally did. I'm no longer at the mercy of these rip-off body shops and detailers and I LEARNED something. Go to Autogeeks.net and watch the videos on buffing out paint. Good luck! 
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 22,798
Likes: 943
I agree with all the other posts here about the sanding trick. If you have some scratches the sanding definitely helps and cuts down buffing time a lot. It is nothing to be scared about....read up about this in the car care section. I have never sanded or buffed a corvette in my life, but after reading all the posts about the procedure and trying it out on my 1994 sunbird I was truely amazed. I then did it to my 02 vette where I had some nasty scratches and some nasty water etchings that ate right through some of my layers of clear coat. I used 1000 grit automotive grade wet sanding paper. The first time you do this to your vette you will be scared to dealth...its looks pretty bad. But rest assured it all comes out in the end and the finish looks beautiful. The clear coat on the C5 is one of the toughest in the industry and it can be gently wet sanded and then a rotary buffer used on to bring back the showroom quality shine like it once had. You have to be careful and know the threshold of what scratches can be completely removed and what ones you can only improve on. I actually had a set of really deep down marks that where located under my emblems in the rear. I figured this was an excellent spot to sand a lot and see really where the threshold was. I by no means recommend you do that....instead test on a junker car. If you have access to a body panel or headlight cover from a C5 that would be the best. From my testing experience, what happens is you will get to a point where after you sand then buff, then sand and buff again...you will eventually get the nicks or scratches pretty level but then go through all the layers of clear and start to move the actual paint around. This will then fill in the scratches but will leave you with a spot that ends up not as shiny bright as the rest of the car. This because the clear has been all wiped away and you have literally burned the paint to move it around. This is obviously what you would want to avoid. Put your mind at ease....its no easy thing to do and before you get to this point...your common sense will kick in and you should get a feeling of...hmmmm I feel like I have been sanding and buffing this spot too long.
So to summarize....if your scratches are felt with your fingernail and you can see them as being a solid white or gray color and are more then a hairlength in thickness....these your only going to be able to improve upon and never fix. The surface scratches you will be able to remove. Its totally up to you though as far as who fixes them....yourself or a pro. The materials you will need are not cheap but you will always have them vs paying a one time fee for a pro to do it only to have more eventually come back and have to pay a pro again.
Good luck and be sure to check out the car care section....its how I learned. The guys from autogeek are the best and have all the supplies and tools you will need.
So to summarize....if your scratches are felt with your fingernail and you can see them as being a solid white or gray color and are more then a hairlength in thickness....these your only going to be able to improve upon and never fix. The surface scratches you will be able to remove. Its totally up to you though as far as who fixes them....yourself or a pro. The materials you will need are not cheap but you will always have them vs paying a one time fee for a pro to do it only to have more eventually come back and have to pay a pro again.
Good luck and be sure to check out the car care section....its how I learned. The guys from autogeek are the best and have all the supplies and tools you will need.
DO NOT mistake color sanding/ wet sanding as being a simple process that you can do yourself with little to no experience. There are all kinda of steps that you must take to ensure that it is done correctly, for instance:
1. Soapy water is a must, lubricates both the cars surface and the paint as well as carry away debris from the process. I would use a bucket of warm soapy water in the winter and in the summer, I use a garden hose with a fertilizer sprayer on it full of dish soap and drape it over my shoulder for a continuous shower on the panel.
2. Listen; you have to know what you are hearing or not hearing. If you can hear the sanding action of the sand paper, you are not using enough water and are doing damage to the finish.
3. Hand orientation, if you are sanding by hand, you must orient your hand at an angle counter to the direction you are sanding so that you do not put finger marks in the paint as so many people do.
4. Know when you have sanded enough, I recommend stopping every few min and squeegeeing the surface to see how smooth it is.
5 Have the right tools, I would use a rubber sanding block rather than your hand, your hand will apply un-even pressure to the area and end up with high and low spots.
6. When you start to compound and polish, the buffer must be used in a particular direction, for instance: the pad should always be coming off the panel (the pad rotates clockwise and the right side of the pad should be spinning off of the panel or edge) as opposed to spinning onto the panel. The latter will burn the paint off your panel in less than 10 seconds with a wool cut pad.
I could go on but you get the picture. If you have no experience with color sanding then do not try and learn on any car of value. Go to the junkyard and buy a hood or a trunk, something with ridges and curves so you can learn how to sand each area and what to look for. I would not do this even to a beater if you are learning.
Now once you have learned or think you have, then go and try it on a beater.
I would really recommend that you get a PC and the foam pads and some compounds from either adams, autogeek or whoever and go that route. You stand to do far more damage by color sanding then having to cut the paint and polish it with a wool pad and a high speed buffer. A wool pad will burn thru paint in no time with inexperienced hands.
The PC with foam cut, polish and wax pads is very forgiving and will do an excellent job in most cases, even on scratch's. I have used the Sonus pads from Autogeek and they work very well, I just got some new pads from Adams (gen 2 pads) and will try them out in a few weeks with their new machine polish and machine wax, supposed to deliver even more shine than the hand polish's.
I would suggest this route first before you go more drastic with color sanding. You will still need these products anyway if you color sand so if they don't solve the problem for you before you try color sanding, it's not a waste of money.
Also, take Shirl's suggestion and look at the videos on the Autogeek site and Adams site on how to machine polish, you may be surprised by the results.
BTW, my truck is an 2003 Dodge Ram and the paint looks like wet glass using the above products.
I really cant stress it enough that if you do not know how to color sand a car and do not have someone with you who does and do not have at least 2 solid days to do it, then dont attempt it.
Last edited by Millenium Z06; Jan 4, 2009 at 04:54 PM.
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 9,037
Likes: 88
From: Granby, MA
Cruise-In 1, 3, 9. 10 & 11 Veteran
I kinda disagree about the clear, the C5 clear is bargain basement dupont or basf, whatever was on sale that month. It is no more durable than what Toyota or Kia uses. The only manufacturer that uses a good durable clear is Mercedes which uses a ceramic in their clear to strengthen the paint and prevent scratch's, esp on black vehicles.
DO NOT mistake color sanding/ wet sanding as being a simple process that you can do yourself with little to no experience. There are all kinda of steps that you must take to ensure that it is done correctly, for instance:
1. Soapy water is a must, lubricates both the cars surface and the paint as well as carry away debris from the process. I would use a bucket of warm soapy water in the winter and in the summer, I use a garden hose with a fertilizer sprayer on it full of dish soap and drape it over my shoulder for a continuous shower on the panel.
2. Listen; you have to know what you are hearing or not hearing. If you can hear the sanding action of the sand paper, you are not using enough water and are doing damage to the finish.
3. Hand orientation, if you are sanding by hand, you must orient your hand at an angle counter to the direction you are sanding so that you do not put finger marks in the paint as so many people do.
4. Know when you have sanded enough, I recommend stopping every few min and squeegeeing the surface to see how smooth it is.
5 Have the right tools, I would use a rubber sanding block rather than your hand, your hand will apply un-even pressure to the area and end up with high and low spots.
6. When you start to compound and polish, the buffer must be used in a particular direction, for instance: the pad should always be coming off the panel (the pad rotates clockwise and the right side of the pad should be spinning off of the panel or edge) as opposed to spinning onto the panel. The latter will burn the paint off your panel in less than 10 seconds with a wool cut pad.
I could go on but you get the picture. If you have no experience with color sanding then do not try and learn on any car of value. Go to the junkyard and buy a hood or a trunk, something with ridges and curves so you can learn how to sand each area and what to look for. I would not do this even to a beater if you are learning.
Now once you have learned or think you have, then go and try it on a beater.
I would really recommend that you get a PC and the foam pads and some compounds from either adams, autogeek or whoever and go that route. You stand to do far more damage by color sanding then having to cut the paint and polish it with a wool pad and a high speed buffer. A wool pad will burn thru paint in no time with inexperienced hands.
The PC with foam cut, polish and wax pads is very forgiving and will do an excellent job in most cases, even on scratch's. I have used the Sonus pads from Autogeek and they work very well, I just got some new pads from Adams (gen 2 pads) and will try them out in a few weeks with their new machine polish and machine wax, supposed to deliver even more shine than the hand polish's.
I would suggest this route first before you go more drastic with color sanding. You will still need these products anyway if you color sand so if they don't solve the problem for you before you try color sanding, it's not a waste of money.
Also, take Shirl's suggestion and look at the videos on the Autogeek site and Adams site on how to machine polish, you may be surprised by the results.
BTW, my truck is an 2003 Dodge Ram and the paint looks like wet glass using the above products.
I really cant stress it enough that if you do not know how to color sand a car and do not have someone with you who does and do not have at least 2 solid days to do it, then dont attempt it.
DO NOT mistake color sanding/ wet sanding as being a simple process that you can do yourself with little to no experience. There are all kinda of steps that you must take to ensure that it is done correctly, for instance:
1. Soapy water is a must, lubricates both the cars surface and the paint as well as carry away debris from the process. I would use a bucket of warm soapy water in the winter and in the summer, I use a garden hose with a fertilizer sprayer on it full of dish soap and drape it over my shoulder for a continuous shower on the panel.
2. Listen; you have to know what you are hearing or not hearing. If you can hear the sanding action of the sand paper, you are not using enough water and are doing damage to the finish.
3. Hand orientation, if you are sanding by hand, you must orient your hand at an angle counter to the direction you are sanding so that you do not put finger marks in the paint as so many people do.
4. Know when you have sanded enough, I recommend stopping every few min and squeegeeing the surface to see how smooth it is.
5 Have the right tools, I would use a rubber sanding block rather than your hand, your hand will apply un-even pressure to the area and end up with high and low spots.
6. When you start to compound and polish, the buffer must be used in a particular direction, for instance: the pad should always be coming off the panel (the pad rotates clockwise and the right side of the pad should be spinning off of the panel or edge) as opposed to spinning onto the panel. The latter will burn the paint off your panel in less than 10 seconds with a wool cut pad.
I could go on but you get the picture. If you have no experience with color sanding then do not try and learn on any car of value. Go to the junkyard and buy a hood or a trunk, something with ridges and curves so you can learn how to sand each area and what to look for. I would not do this even to a beater if you are learning.
Now once you have learned or think you have, then go and try it on a beater.
I would really recommend that you get a PC and the foam pads and some compounds from either adams, autogeek or whoever and go that route. You stand to do far more damage by color sanding then having to cut the paint and polish it with a wool pad and a high speed buffer. A wool pad will burn thru paint in no time with inexperienced hands.
The PC with foam cut, polish and wax pads is very forgiving and will do an excellent job in most cases, even on scratch's. I have used the Sonus pads from Autogeek and they work very well, I just got some new pads from Adams (gen 2 pads) and will try them out in a few weeks with their new machine polish and machine wax, supposed to deliver even more shine than the hand polish's.
I would suggest this route first before you go more drastic with color sanding. You will still need these products anyway if you color sand so if they don't solve the problem for you before you try color sanding, it's not a waste of money.
Also, take Shirl's suggestion and look at the videos on the Autogeek site and Adams site on how to machine polish, you may be surprised by the results.
BTW, my truck is an 2003 Dodge Ram and the paint looks like wet glass using the above products.
I really cant stress it enough that if you do not know how to color sand a car and do not have someone with you who does and do not have at least 2 solid days to do it, then dont attempt it.
Here is an example: please read it.
http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-ceramic-kit.html
As far as the "color sanding" I didn't really get into it cause frankly I am not that skilled to even understand what it is referring to on a newer C5's finish. So that the OP is not confused, I by no means sanded to get all the way down to the base color paint. As I mentioned above that would be a huge mistake. I simply very gently wet sanded my bad spots or scratches with some 1000grit wet sandpaper (as yes used a wet lubricant) as you can't really wet sand anything without it...hence wet sand. I do this only to level off the clear and make buffing a lot easier. I would like to know what "color sanding" does refer to though...Is this the same as just wet sanding?
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 4, 2009 at 05:36 PM.
Thread Starter
Pro
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 549
Likes: 22
From: Castle Pines Colorado
Wow! I really appreciate all the responses. From what I've read it seems experience is definitly required to take care of my problem. The shop I took it to has a showroom dedicated to corvettes and they seem to know what they are talking about.
Maybe in the future when I have the opportunity to try my talents on a less expensive car I will. Thanks for all the input again and I will surely post pictures when I get it back.
Maybe in the future when I have the opportunity to try my talents on a less expensive car I will. Thanks for all the input again and I will surely post pictures when I get it back.
Original Founding Member!
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 9,037
Likes: 88
From: Granby, MA
Cruise-In 1, 3, 9. 10 & 11 Veteran
Wow! I really appreciate all the responses. From what I've read it seems experience is definitly required to take care of my problem. The shop I took it to has a showroom dedicated to corvettes and they seem to know what they are talking about.
Maybe in the future when I have the opportunity to try my talents on a less expensive car I will. Thanks for all the input again and I will surely post pictures when I get it back.
Maybe in the future when I have the opportunity to try my talents on a less expensive car I will. Thanks for all the input again and I will surely post pictures when I get it back.
Last edited by XtremeVette; Jan 4, 2009 at 06:08 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 22,798
Likes: 943
Well all I can say is everybody is entitled to their opinion...for the OP please find out for yourself...Iam not sure where Millenium heard his information from but I have never read or heard of what he posted about the C5's clearcoat. In fact I have only seen and heard proof that points the other direction. It is one of the hardest clearcoats on the market. It is very similar to the mercedes. This is why you have to purchase special abrasives such as the Menzerna products, otherwise its going to take an awfully long time to try to get anything done at all. Maybe perhaps some C5's didn't the same treatment...but mine sure is tough as nails to cut into. Even with a rotary. A regular buffer did nothing at all. Please don't take my word for it. For any type of real nasty scratch correction your going to need either a rotary or a FLEX at least. For smaller ones you will be able to get away with a DA. Do a search or ask the pro's over at autogeek or any other professional car care expert.
Here is an example: please read it.
http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-ceramic-kit.html
As far as the "color sanding" I didn't really get into it cause frankly I am not that skilled to even understand what it is referring to on a newer C5's finish. So that the OP is not confused, I by no means sanded to get all the way down to the base color paint. As I mentioned above that would be a huge mistake. I simply very gently wet sanded my bad spots or scratches with some 1000grit wet sandpaper (as yes used a wet lubricant) as you can't really wet sand anything without it...hence wet sand. I do this only to level off the clear and make buffing a lot easier. I would like to know what "color sanding" does refer to though...Is this the same as just wet sanding?
Here is an example: please read it.
http://www.autogeek.net/dual-action-ceramic-kit.html
As far as the "color sanding" I didn't really get into it cause frankly I am not that skilled to even understand what it is referring to on a newer C5's finish. So that the OP is not confused, I by no means sanded to get all the way down to the base color paint. As I mentioned above that would be a huge mistake. I simply very gently wet sanded my bad spots or scratches with some 1000grit wet sandpaper (as yes used a wet lubricant) as you can't really wet sand anything without it...hence wet sand. I do this only to level off the clear and make buffing a lot easier. I would like to know what "color sanding" does refer to though...Is this the same as just wet sanding?
Color sanding and wet sanding are one in the same, most people know it by one or the other name, it was meant to clarify that fact.
I didnt hear my information from anyone, I "learned" my knowledge and technique by painting, buffing and color sanding vehicles for 5 years professionally. Hearing something does not make it so.
GM Clearcoat is nothing like Mercedes which uses Glasurite who hold the patent on ceramic paints and GM dosent use Glasurite, as seen below they use Dupont and PPG which now owns BASF, they bought one of their suppliers.
As far as the Menzerna goes, I'm sure it a very good product but Meguiars, Adams, Zaino and 3M all cut GM paint pretty easily; Adams is just the most user friendly I have used. I dont know what problem you had polishing/ cleaning or buffing your paint but I do it on a regular basis with no issues whatsoever; maybe your technique IDK.
My response was not meant to argue with you or flame you; I simply wanted to convey to the op how dangerous color sanding/ wet sanding is and that it should not be take lightly or that there is no skill or ability involved.
And yes, you are correct that wetsanding involves water; where most make the mistake is that they do not use enough water. Re-read #'s 1 & 2
DuPont Paint Information
Compiled by Don Strack
This page was last updated on August 21, 2005.
Duco History
Dulux History
Dulux vs. Duco
DuPont Duco was a lacquer formula dating from 1923. It held its gloss better over time and stood up to regular washing better, and being a lacquer, took less time to dry. Duco was also more expensive.
Dulux was an enamel formula introduced in 1926. It took longer to dry (usually overnight), but was less expensive. Dulux enamel was more resilient and resistant to chipping, and was a better choice for locomotive and car running gear.
Many railroads, including D&RGW and UP, specified Duco lacquer for use on the carbodies of their diesel locomotives, but continued to specify Dulux enamel for use on locomotive running gear.
Aluminum paint color, sometimes known as bright aluminum, was used to simulate polished stainless steel. Depending on the needed durability, both Dulux Aluminum enamel and Duco Aluminum lacquer were used.
DuPont Paint Coatings History
Quoting directly from the DuPont heritage web page:
DuPont began producing nitrocellulose-based pyroxylin lacquers after acquiring the International Smokeless Powder & Solvents Company in 1905. The purchase of the Arlington Company ten years later (in 1915) deepened the company’s involvement. Although they were quick drying and widely used on brass fixtures, conventional lacquers were too brittle for more demanding uses. By the 1920s, however, the automotive industry had become a huge potential market. Although mass production had vastly increased output, because conventional paints took up to two weeks to dry, finishing remained a bottleneck. In 1920 chemists working with film at DuPont's Redpath Laboratory in Parlin, New Jersey, produced a thick pyroxylin lacquer which was quick drying but durable and that could be colored. DuPont marketed it under the name Viscolac in 1921. Assisted by General Motors (GM) engineers, DuPont refined the product further and renamed it Duco. The success of Duco led to further experimentation with finishes and late in the 1920s, DuPont developed Dulux, an even more effective alkyd finish. Duco retained a niche market, however, and DuPont continued to produce it at Parlin until the late 1960s.
General Motors' use of DuPont paints stemmed from DuPont's purchase of 23 percent stock interest in GM in 1917-1919. In 1949, the U.S. government sued DuPont to break what it said was an illegal monopoly by DuPont of automotive finishes and fabrics. Here are several snippets of information from that court case relating to Duco, Dulux, and their use by GM:
Two products account for a high proportion of these finish sales to General Motors: "Duco," and "Dulux". However, Duco and Dulux did not come into commercial use until 1924 and 1931, respectively, and du Pont's position as a principal manufacturer of finishes was attained much earlier.
The invention and development of Duco in the early 1920's represented a significant technological advance. The gradual adoption of Duco by some of the General Motors' car divisions, viewed in conjunction with its proved superiority as an auto finish, illustrates the independent buying of each division and demonstrates that Duco made its way on its own merits. From the beginning, General Motors continued to look for competitive materials. Finally, the success of Duco has never been confined to the General Motors' car divisions. In 1924 and 1925, nearly all car manufacturers abandoned varnish for Duco. General Motors has continued to test paints on thousands of cars annually. Du Pont has retained its position as primary lacquer supplier to several General Motors' divisions because these divisions have felt that Duco best fits their needs.
The second largest item which General Motors buys from du Pont is Dulux, a synthetic enamel finish used on refrigerators and other appliances. Since its development, Dulux has been used exclusively by all the major manufacturers of refrigerators and other appliances - General Electric, Westinghouse, Crosley, and many others - except Frigidaire, which continues to finish parts of its refrigerators with porcelain.
Expressed in percentages, du Pont supplied 67% of General Motors' requirements for finishes in 1946 and 68% in 1947. In fabrics du Pont supplied 52.3% of requirements in 1946, and 38.5% in 1947. Because General Motors accounts for almost one-half of the automobile industry's annual sales, its requirements for automotive finishes and fabrics must represent approximately one-half of the relevant market for these materials.
The du Pont Company's commanding position as a General Motors supplier was not achieved until shortly after its purchase of a sizable block of General Motors stock in 1917. At that time its production for the automobile industry and its sales to General Motors were relatively insignificant. Before the first block of General Motors stock was acquired, du Pont was seeking markets for the artificial leather, celluloid, rubber-coated goods, and paints and varnishes in demand by automobile companies. More than just a profitable investment was contemplated. A major consideration was that an expanding General Motors would provide a substantial market needed by the burgeoning du Pont organization. Immediately after the acquisition, du Pont's influence growing out of it was brought to bear within General Motors to achieve primary for du Pont as General Motors' supplier of automotive fabrics and finishes. J. A. Haskell, du Pont's former sales manager and vice-president, became the General Motors vice-president in charge of the operations committee. Haskell frankly and openly set about gaining the maximum share of the General Motors market for du Pont.
The record does not show that the fabrics and finishes used in the manufacture of automobiles have peculiar characteristics differentiating them from the finishes and fabrics used in other industries. What evidence there is in the record affirmatively indicates the contrary. Duco was first marketed not to General Motors, but to the auto refinishing trade and to manufacturers of furniture, brush handles and pencils. In 1927, 44% of du Pont's sales of colored Duco, and 51.5% of its total sales, were to purchasers other than auto manufacturers. A substantial portion of du Pont's sales of Duco have continued to be for nonautomotive uses. Dulux has never been used in the manufacture of automobiles. It replaced Duco and other lacquers as a finish on refrigerators, washers, dryers, and other appliances, and continues to have wide use on metallic objects requiring a durable finish.
In 1947, when du Pont's sales of Duco and Dulux to General Motors totaled about $15,400,000, the total national market for paints and finishes was $1,248,000,000, of which about $552,000,000 was for varnishes, lacquers, enamels, japans, thinners and dopes, the kinds of finishes sold primarily to industrial users. There is no evidence in this record establishing that these industrial finishes are not competitive with Duco and Dulux. There is considerable evidence that many of them are. It is probable that du Pont's total sales of finishes to General Motors in 1947 constituted less than 3.5% of all sales of industrial finishes.
The largest single finish item which du Pont sells to General Motors is a low-viscosity nitrocellulose lacquer, discovered and patented by du Pont and for which its trademark is 'Duco'.
The invention and development of 'Duco' represented a truly significant advance in the art of paint making and in the production of automobiles; without 'Duco' mass production of automobiles would not have been possible.
In the federal case that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court (U. S. v. Du Pont (General Motors), 353 U. S. 586, 1957), the higher court overturned the lower court's decision that an illegal monopoly existed, and returned the case to the lower District court which had originally found that a monopoly had existed.
DuPont sold its consumer paint business in 1983. The Dulux brand is now sold by ICI, a British company with a worldwide distribution network, with the ICI acronym denoting Imperial Chemicals Industries. The Dulux name was established in Canada and Great Britian in 1927 (one year after the brand was established in the U.S.) to market the new high quality decorative gloss paint based on new technology using alkyd resin. ICI Dulux is now a 100 percent acrylic paint with zero volatile organic compounds (or VOCs, which are enviromentally harmful solvents).
Duco History:
DuPont's Duco paint was a nitrocellulose lacquer that first brought color to automobiles when General Motors first used it in 1923. Using Duco lacquer revolutionized the automotive finish business by reducing finish time from two weeks to two days. It was thick and quick drying, which pleased carmakers, but frustrating for consumers who couldn't apply it like the oil-based paints they were used to.
Duco was DuPont's most successful coating. In 1920 they produced a durable lacquer that dried quickly—a boon to the emerging mass production industries. Marketed as Duco in 1922, it was the standard finish on all General Motors cars within four years.
Dulux History:
DuPont first began using Dulux alkyd resin enamel in automotive coatings in 1926. Dulux actually owes its existence to a flaw in its more famous cousin, Duco, which was first used on General Motors automobiles in 1923. Duco was easy for car manufacturers to use because it was thick and fast drying, but hard for consumers to use because it was unlike the oil based lacquers they were used to. So DuPont researchers tried mixing synthetic alkyd resins with oil and found that the resulting enamel's drying time was slower than Duco but faster than that of traditional oil paint. Dulux alkyd resin, named in 1926, also had a pleasing high-gloss look. By the early 1930s it won over consumers under the label Dulux "Brush" Duco.
Dulux high-gloss enamels were also used widely in the 1930s on refrigerators and washing machines, outdoor signs, gasoline service stations and pumps, and railroad cars. Once tried as an undercoating for Duco auto paint, Dulux also found a niche as a low-cost alternative to Duco auto finishes. In 1954 some automobile manufacturers chose an improved Dulux alkyd enamel over Duco, and over DuPont's new water-based Lucite acrylic lacquer. However, Lucite soon pulled ahead in household sales, and after DuPont developed a new acrylic polymer in 1957, Lucite also outshone Dulux in the appliance and industrial markets.
DuPont Dulux and Duco Colors
Most new stores aren’t equipped to mix synthetic enamel since they’ve made a complete switch to acrylic paints. Also the old DuPont Dulux paint numbers are being replaced by DuPont Centari acrylic enamels. One way to convert Dulux to Centari numbers is to drop the prefix from the Dulux number. For example, a Dulux 93-57704 gray becomes a Centari 57704-A. (from Minneaplois-Moline Color Matching)
Sources:
Dulux Overview
Duco Overview
Duco In Depth
DuPont Paints and Coatings
Federal antitrust suit against DuPont
Lucite is a registered brand of DuPont.
Compiled by Don Strack
This page was last updated on August 21, 2005.
Duco History
Dulux History
Dulux vs. Duco
DuPont Duco was a lacquer formula dating from 1923. It held its gloss better over time and stood up to regular washing better, and being a lacquer, took less time to dry. Duco was also more expensive.
Dulux was an enamel formula introduced in 1926. It took longer to dry (usually overnight), but was less expensive. Dulux enamel was more resilient and resistant to chipping, and was a better choice for locomotive and car running gear.
Many railroads, including D&RGW and UP, specified Duco lacquer for use on the carbodies of their diesel locomotives, but continued to specify Dulux enamel for use on locomotive running gear.
Aluminum paint color, sometimes known as bright aluminum, was used to simulate polished stainless steel. Depending on the needed durability, both Dulux Aluminum enamel and Duco Aluminum lacquer were used.
DuPont Paint Coatings History
Quoting directly from the DuPont heritage web page:
DuPont began producing nitrocellulose-based pyroxylin lacquers after acquiring the International Smokeless Powder & Solvents Company in 1905. The purchase of the Arlington Company ten years later (in 1915) deepened the company’s involvement. Although they were quick drying and widely used on brass fixtures, conventional lacquers were too brittle for more demanding uses. By the 1920s, however, the automotive industry had become a huge potential market. Although mass production had vastly increased output, because conventional paints took up to two weeks to dry, finishing remained a bottleneck. In 1920 chemists working with film at DuPont's Redpath Laboratory in Parlin, New Jersey, produced a thick pyroxylin lacquer which was quick drying but durable and that could be colored. DuPont marketed it under the name Viscolac in 1921. Assisted by General Motors (GM) engineers, DuPont refined the product further and renamed it Duco. The success of Duco led to further experimentation with finishes and late in the 1920s, DuPont developed Dulux, an even more effective alkyd finish. Duco retained a niche market, however, and DuPont continued to produce it at Parlin until the late 1960s.
General Motors' use of DuPont paints stemmed from DuPont's purchase of 23 percent stock interest in GM in 1917-1919. In 1949, the U.S. government sued DuPont to break what it said was an illegal monopoly by DuPont of automotive finishes and fabrics. Here are several snippets of information from that court case relating to Duco, Dulux, and their use by GM:
Two products account for a high proportion of these finish sales to General Motors: "Duco," and "Dulux". However, Duco and Dulux did not come into commercial use until 1924 and 1931, respectively, and du Pont's position as a principal manufacturer of finishes was attained much earlier.
The invention and development of Duco in the early 1920's represented a significant technological advance. The gradual adoption of Duco by some of the General Motors' car divisions, viewed in conjunction with its proved superiority as an auto finish, illustrates the independent buying of each division and demonstrates that Duco made its way on its own merits. From the beginning, General Motors continued to look for competitive materials. Finally, the success of Duco has never been confined to the General Motors' car divisions. In 1924 and 1925, nearly all car manufacturers abandoned varnish for Duco. General Motors has continued to test paints on thousands of cars annually. Du Pont has retained its position as primary lacquer supplier to several General Motors' divisions because these divisions have felt that Duco best fits their needs.
The second largest item which General Motors buys from du Pont is Dulux, a synthetic enamel finish used on refrigerators and other appliances. Since its development, Dulux has been used exclusively by all the major manufacturers of refrigerators and other appliances - General Electric, Westinghouse, Crosley, and many others - except Frigidaire, which continues to finish parts of its refrigerators with porcelain.
Expressed in percentages, du Pont supplied 67% of General Motors' requirements for finishes in 1946 and 68% in 1947. In fabrics du Pont supplied 52.3% of requirements in 1946, and 38.5% in 1947. Because General Motors accounts for almost one-half of the automobile industry's annual sales, its requirements for automotive finishes and fabrics must represent approximately one-half of the relevant market for these materials.
The du Pont Company's commanding position as a General Motors supplier was not achieved until shortly after its purchase of a sizable block of General Motors stock in 1917. At that time its production for the automobile industry and its sales to General Motors were relatively insignificant. Before the first block of General Motors stock was acquired, du Pont was seeking markets for the artificial leather, celluloid, rubber-coated goods, and paints and varnishes in demand by automobile companies. More than just a profitable investment was contemplated. A major consideration was that an expanding General Motors would provide a substantial market needed by the burgeoning du Pont organization. Immediately after the acquisition, du Pont's influence growing out of it was brought to bear within General Motors to achieve primary for du Pont as General Motors' supplier of automotive fabrics and finishes. J. A. Haskell, du Pont's former sales manager and vice-president, became the General Motors vice-president in charge of the operations committee. Haskell frankly and openly set about gaining the maximum share of the General Motors market for du Pont.
The record does not show that the fabrics and finishes used in the manufacture of automobiles have peculiar characteristics differentiating them from the finishes and fabrics used in other industries. What evidence there is in the record affirmatively indicates the contrary. Duco was first marketed not to General Motors, but to the auto refinishing trade and to manufacturers of furniture, brush handles and pencils. In 1927, 44% of du Pont's sales of colored Duco, and 51.5% of its total sales, were to purchasers other than auto manufacturers. A substantial portion of du Pont's sales of Duco have continued to be for nonautomotive uses. Dulux has never been used in the manufacture of automobiles. It replaced Duco and other lacquers as a finish on refrigerators, washers, dryers, and other appliances, and continues to have wide use on metallic objects requiring a durable finish.
In 1947, when du Pont's sales of Duco and Dulux to General Motors totaled about $15,400,000, the total national market for paints and finishes was $1,248,000,000, of which about $552,000,000 was for varnishes, lacquers, enamels, japans, thinners and dopes, the kinds of finishes sold primarily to industrial users. There is no evidence in this record establishing that these industrial finishes are not competitive with Duco and Dulux. There is considerable evidence that many of them are. It is probable that du Pont's total sales of finishes to General Motors in 1947 constituted less than 3.5% of all sales of industrial finishes.
The largest single finish item which du Pont sells to General Motors is a low-viscosity nitrocellulose lacquer, discovered and patented by du Pont and for which its trademark is 'Duco'.
The invention and development of 'Duco' represented a truly significant advance in the art of paint making and in the production of automobiles; without 'Duco' mass production of automobiles would not have been possible.
In the federal case that was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court (U. S. v. Du Pont (General Motors), 353 U. S. 586, 1957), the higher court overturned the lower court's decision that an illegal monopoly existed, and returned the case to the lower District court which had originally found that a monopoly had existed.
DuPont sold its consumer paint business in 1983. The Dulux brand is now sold by ICI, a British company with a worldwide distribution network, with the ICI acronym denoting Imperial Chemicals Industries. The Dulux name was established in Canada and Great Britian in 1927 (one year after the brand was established in the U.S.) to market the new high quality decorative gloss paint based on new technology using alkyd resin. ICI Dulux is now a 100 percent acrylic paint with zero volatile organic compounds (or VOCs, which are enviromentally harmful solvents).
Duco History:
DuPont's Duco paint was a nitrocellulose lacquer that first brought color to automobiles when General Motors first used it in 1923. Using Duco lacquer revolutionized the automotive finish business by reducing finish time from two weeks to two days. It was thick and quick drying, which pleased carmakers, but frustrating for consumers who couldn't apply it like the oil-based paints they were used to.
Duco was DuPont's most successful coating. In 1920 they produced a durable lacquer that dried quickly—a boon to the emerging mass production industries. Marketed as Duco in 1922, it was the standard finish on all General Motors cars within four years.
Dulux History:
DuPont first began using Dulux alkyd resin enamel in automotive coatings in 1926. Dulux actually owes its existence to a flaw in its more famous cousin, Duco, which was first used on General Motors automobiles in 1923. Duco was easy for car manufacturers to use because it was thick and fast drying, but hard for consumers to use because it was unlike the oil based lacquers they were used to. So DuPont researchers tried mixing synthetic alkyd resins with oil and found that the resulting enamel's drying time was slower than Duco but faster than that of traditional oil paint. Dulux alkyd resin, named in 1926, also had a pleasing high-gloss look. By the early 1930s it won over consumers under the label Dulux "Brush" Duco.
Dulux high-gloss enamels were also used widely in the 1930s on refrigerators and washing machines, outdoor signs, gasoline service stations and pumps, and railroad cars. Once tried as an undercoating for Duco auto paint, Dulux also found a niche as a low-cost alternative to Duco auto finishes. In 1954 some automobile manufacturers chose an improved Dulux alkyd enamel over Duco, and over DuPont's new water-based Lucite acrylic lacquer. However, Lucite soon pulled ahead in household sales, and after DuPont developed a new acrylic polymer in 1957, Lucite also outshone Dulux in the appliance and industrial markets.
DuPont Dulux and Duco Colors
Most new stores aren’t equipped to mix synthetic enamel since they’ve made a complete switch to acrylic paints. Also the old DuPont Dulux paint numbers are being replaced by DuPont Centari acrylic enamels. One way to convert Dulux to Centari numbers is to drop the prefix from the Dulux number. For example, a Dulux 93-57704 gray becomes a Centari 57704-A. (from Minneaplois-Moline Color Matching)
Sources:
Dulux Overview
Duco Overview
Duco In Depth
DuPont Paints and Coatings
Federal antitrust suit against DuPont
Lucite is a registered brand of DuPont.
Last edited by Millenium Z06; Jan 4, 2009 at 06:31 PM.
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Oddly...I too was quoted the $300 to wet sand/buff my car as well. I am hoping this quote for you was only for the trouble spots as from what I found out...$300 for a pro to wet sand and buff an entire C5 is pretty cheap and would worry most people. I decided to do my car myself as I didn't want to throw money out the window and questioned the shop doing the work. If you like the shop though and believe in them I say go for it. Don't forget to put those pictures up though! Really would like to see a nicely buffed black C5.