Weiand Street Warrior
Former Vendor
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 7
From: Valencia CA
AFR has been working on trying to develop some plastic intakes for the Gen I SBC / BBC platforms....(pretty exciting technology that we are trying to put the last finishing touches on as we speak).
Anyway, in a very recent test we ran on a state of the art engine dyno with a very controlled set of parameters (same engine coolant temps at the start of each pull, etc.) we saw about a 8-10 HP difference going from aluminum to a plastic/fiberglass composite copy of the exact same shaped intake (the plastic composite version was poured from the mold of the aluminum version I spent quite a bit of time designing).
The aluminum intake was 120 degrees at the end of the dyno pull....the plastic intake was 88 degrees after the exact same duration run with the engine coolant temps starting at 180 degrees in both tests. I was actually surprised the aluminum intake was that cool, but this was a carbuerated test and the cooling effect of the 80 degree ambient air and atomizing fuel reduced the manifold runner temps substantially at WOT.
At the end of each run the plastic intake literally felt cool to the touch....except for the brass insert that the water temp sensor was screwed into....I quickly touched that just to make sure I wasnt crazy and almost burnt my hand
(in hindsight Im quite sure it was 190 degree or so....the same temp as the coolant in the engine after the 12 second pull!)
Long story short....heat soak is very real although I agree with zeevette that some of the BBK shortcomings are related to runner design etc, not just the fact its made of aluminum.
-Tony
Anyway, in a very recent test we ran on a state of the art engine dyno with a very controlled set of parameters (same engine coolant temps at the start of each pull, etc.) we saw about a 8-10 HP difference going from aluminum to a plastic/fiberglass composite copy of the exact same shaped intake (the plastic composite version was poured from the mold of the aluminum version I spent quite a bit of time designing).
The aluminum intake was 120 degrees at the end of the dyno pull....the plastic intake was 88 degrees after the exact same duration run with the engine coolant temps starting at 180 degrees in both tests. I was actually surprised the aluminum intake was that cool, but this was a carbuerated test and the cooling effect of the 80 degree ambient air and atomizing fuel reduced the manifold runner temps substantially at WOT.
At the end of each run the plastic intake literally felt cool to the touch....except for the brass insert that the water temp sensor was screwed into....I quickly touched that just to make sure I wasnt crazy and almost burnt my hand
(in hindsight Im quite sure it was 190 degree or so....the same temp as the coolant in the engine after the 12 second pull!)Long story short....heat soak is very real although I agree with zeevette that some of the BBK shortcomings are related to runner design etc, not just the fact its made of aluminum.
-Tony
Racer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
From: Northern Virginia
This doesn't seem to be proof of the BBK's value at all. Only 393 with H/C/intake is pretty tepid, even with the A/T. OTOH, I'm not a big believer in "heat soak" robbing power in street use. The velocity of air moving will mitigate most of these problems, with the exception of periods of extended low speed use, IMH, and unscientific O. The BBK manifold is just a poor design, from an air flow perspective. Since that's what creates power..... The only reason to use a metal intake is for show car good looks, when polished.
I have a BBK with LG pro and 1.8 rockers with stock heads, throttle body, and cam and put down 369 rwhp and 380 rwtq. Of course I have K&N and Cat back. But take your 50 hp cam and 50 hp heads and put on that
BBK isn't crap. Just because there's an alternative that's 1/3rd the price doesn't mean it should be $h!t all over to make the other options 3x as attractive.
I too have come off the track (RoadRace) and and compaired temps RIGHT after the run, there was a 15 to 20 degree difference to my friends ls6. If I waited 15 minutes for the heat to disapate up into the aluminum, there was a bigger difference, but just because the manifold is warmer doesn't mean the hundreth of a second the air goes through it, the air picks up all 15 or 20 degrees. Thermodynamics doesn't work like that.
I bought what I could afford 4 years ago, and I feel like it's still serving me well and way better than the ls1 intake that was on it.
Last edited by dmiz0420; Jan 12, 2009 at 12:04 PM.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
From: Northern Virginia
To a 97 corvette they are both aftermarket. 4 years ago people wanted $400 + for a LS6 and you had to jump on it fast and it was used. Got my BBK for $379 and didn't have to scower the forums.
I don't feel that personally about it to have the burden of proof on me. It's not my product, I can only attest to the results the intake, rocker arms, and headers yielded. I could keep up with z06's all day long, and they had better heads, cam, gears in trans. You think my headers alone were able to get my 97 c5 to z06+ performance? And I guess the headers would have to overcome the power robbing of the BBK too. One hell of a set of headers... 305 to 369 hp...
So this logic comparison isn't direct enough for your mind or liking, it might help others who can pick up something for a good deal and have $$ to spend on other products. I'm not saying it's better than an LS6, but it's at least comparable.
What do you say to those on the LS1tech forums that have results from a typhoon that are within 5 hp of a ported fast 90 90?
I don't feel that personally about it to have the burden of proof on me. It's not my product, I can only attest to the results the intake, rocker arms, and headers yielded. I could keep up with z06's all day long, and they had better heads, cam, gears in trans. You think my headers alone were able to get my 97 c5 to z06+ performance? And I guess the headers would have to overcome the power robbing of the BBK too. One hell of a set of headers... 305 to 369 hp...
So this logic comparison isn't direct enough for your mind or liking, it might help others who can pick up something for a good deal and have $$ to spend on other products. I'm not saying it's better than an LS6, but it's at least comparable.
What do you say to those on the LS1tech forums that have results from a typhoon that are within 5 hp of a ported fast 90 90?
Last edited by dmiz0420; Jan 12, 2009 at 12:38 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,055
Likes: 0
From: Jax Florida
That, I can agree with, but Verano comparing one to a FAST is just ridiculous. As for the Typhoon, I would put it in the same boat as the BBK.
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Drifting
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,702
Likes: 1
To a 97 corvette they are both aftermarket. 4 years ago people wanted $400 + for a LS6 and you had to jump on it fast and it was used. Got my BBK for $379 and didn't have to scower the forums.
I don't feel that personally about it to have the burden of proof on me. It's not my product, I can only attest to the results the intake, rocker arms, and headers yielded. I could keep up with z06's all day long, and they had better heads, cam, gears in trans. You think my headers alone were able to get my 97 c5 to z06+ performance? And I guess the headers would have to overcome the power robbing of the BBK too. One hell of a set of headers... 305 to 369 hp...
So this logic comparison isn't direct enough for your mind or liking, it might help others who can pick up something for a good deal and have $$ to spend on other products. I'm not saying it's better than an LS6, but it's at least comparable.
What do you say to those on the LS1tech forums that have results from a typhoon that are within 5 hp of a ported fast 90 90?
I don't feel that personally about it to have the burden of proof on me. It's not my product, I can only attest to the results the intake, rocker arms, and headers yielded. I could keep up with z06's all day long, and they had better heads, cam, gears in trans. You think my headers alone were able to get my 97 c5 to z06+ performance? And I guess the headers would have to overcome the power robbing of the BBK too. One hell of a set of headers... 305 to 369 hp...
So this logic comparison isn't direct enough for your mind or liking, it might help others who can pick up something for a good deal and have $$ to spend on other products. I'm not saying it's better than an LS6, but it's at least comparable.
What do you say to those on the LS1tech forums that have results from a typhoon that are within 5 hp of a ported fast 90 90?
Your car with a stock cam gained 64 RWHP with a the addition of a metal intake and headers...what a bunch of crap that is.As far as your car being competitive with a C5 Z06,I doubt that many knowledgeable people on this forum take your claim seriously.Please take that bridge your trying to sell and post it on an other forum.Try the Mustang Forum...those guys believe anything!
Racer
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
From: Northern Virginia
lol
I have no problem with you knocking the BBK but I do take offense to you saying I'm not telling the truth. What do I have to gain?
I did say I had the K&N firpak and some cat back exhaust the last owner had. THe LG Pro's had the off road pipe and I put comp 918 springs in with the yella terra1.8's. I don't even count things like smooth bellow coupler or larger MAF, Thats part of the intake system to me.
It was dynoed at CAM in December of 06 after my fuel pump went at VIR and I had it towed to Durham. If you have problems with their dyno or their results that's a different story, but I am telling the truth as to what my dyno sheet said. FWIW they thought I had put a cam in it too... so maybe it's a factory freak like they said, but I doubt my luck is that good.
I have no problem with you knocking the BBK but I do take offense to you saying I'm not telling the truth. What do I have to gain?
I did say I had the K&N firpak and some cat back exhaust the last owner had. THe LG Pro's had the off road pipe and I put comp 918 springs in with the yella terra1.8's. I don't even count things like smooth bellow coupler or larger MAF, Thats part of the intake system to me.
It was dynoed at CAM in December of 06 after my fuel pump went at VIR and I had it towed to Durham. If you have problems with their dyno or their results that's a different story, but I am telling the truth as to what my dyno sheet said. FWIW they thought I had put a cam in it too... so maybe it's a factory freak like they said, but I doubt my luck is that good.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
From: ft. Worth tx.
Hey ,don't mean to be rude,but on the thread topic who the hell has the W/Warrior?All the sites I've seen,ie Hinson Motor Sports still has ,???? where the ship date is at.
The W/W would be up my alley ,since I have a Z06 cammed ,stage 1.5 Total Engine Airflow Z06 heads,Kooks lts,Ls edit & a few other mild goodies.Dynoed at near 400 HP.In other words the cars top rpm is going to be in the low 6K range.Perfect for what they say the warrior will do.Combined with the LS3 TB I have ,then adding 2-3 % fuel, I hope to get at the 500 BHP mark.Don't know if a TB porting would help at this point?
The W/W would be up my alley ,since I have a Z06 cammed ,stage 1.5 Total Engine Airflow Z06 heads,Kooks lts,Ls edit & a few other mild goodies.Dynoed at near 400 HP.In other words the cars top rpm is going to be in the low 6K range.Perfect for what they say the warrior will do.Combined with the LS3 TB I have ,then adding 2-3 % fuel, I hope to get at the 500 BHP mark.Don't know if a TB porting would help at this point?
Race Director
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,060
Likes: 291
From: Pasco WA
[QUOTE=Tony Mamo @ AFR;1568518467]AFR has been working on trying to develop some plastic intakes for the Gen I SBC / BBC platforms....(pretty exciting technology that we are trying to put the last finishing touches on as we speak).
Anyway, in a very recent test we ran on a state of the art engine dyno with a very controlled set of parameters (same engine coolant temps at the start of each pull, etc.) we saw about a 8-10 HP difference going from aluminum to a plastic/fiberglass composite copy of the exact same shaped intake (the plastic composite version was poured from the mold of the aluminum version I spent quite a bit of time designing).
The aluminum intake was 120 degrees at the end of the dyno pull....the plastic intake was 88 degrees after the exact same duration run with the engine coolant temps starting at 180 degrees in both tests. I was actually surprised the aluminum intake was that cool, but this was a carbuerated test and the cooling effect of the 80 degree ambient air and atomizing fuel reduced the manifold runner temps substantially at WOT.
At the end of each run the plastic intake literally felt cool to the touch....except for the brass insert that the water temp sensor was screwed into....I quickly touched that just to make sure I wasnt crazy and almost burnt my hand (in hindsight Im quite sure it was 190 degree or so....the same temp as the coolant in the engine after the 12 second pull!)
Long story short....heat soak is very real although I agree with zeevette that some of the BBK shortcomings are related to runner design etc, not just the fact its made of aluminum. Tony-[QUOTE]
That's very cool info. Composite manifolds for SBC and BB TOO! Lots of builders will take advantage of this technology. Now, if you could incorporate a stand-alone computer to run a 90mm LS2 TB setup, that's tunable, no one would use carburetors ever again.
Anyway, in a very recent test we ran on a state of the art engine dyno with a very controlled set of parameters (same engine coolant temps at the start of each pull, etc.) we saw about a 8-10 HP difference going from aluminum to a plastic/fiberglass composite copy of the exact same shaped intake (the plastic composite version was poured from the mold of the aluminum version I spent quite a bit of time designing).
The aluminum intake was 120 degrees at the end of the dyno pull....the plastic intake was 88 degrees after the exact same duration run with the engine coolant temps starting at 180 degrees in both tests. I was actually surprised the aluminum intake was that cool, but this was a carbuerated test and the cooling effect of the 80 degree ambient air and atomizing fuel reduced the manifold runner temps substantially at WOT.
At the end of each run the plastic intake literally felt cool to the touch....except for the brass insert that the water temp sensor was screwed into....I quickly touched that just to make sure I wasnt crazy and almost burnt my hand
(in hindsight Im quite sure it was 190 degree or so....the same temp as the coolant in the engine after the 12 second pull!)Long story short....heat soak is very real although I agree with zeevette that some of the BBK shortcomings are related to runner design etc, not just the fact its made of aluminum. Tony-[QUOTE]
That's very cool info. Composite manifolds for SBC and BB TOO! Lots of builders will take advantage of this technology. Now, if you could incorporate a stand-alone computer to run a 90mm LS2 TB setup, that's tunable, no one would use carburetors ever again.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 23,480
Likes: 9
From: East Meadow NY
St. Jude Donor '12
Hey ,don't mean to be rude,but on the thread topic who the hell has the W/Warrior?All the sites I've seen,ie Hinson Motor Sports still has ,???? where the ship date is at.
The W/W would be up my alley ,since I have a Z06 cammed ,stage 1.5 Total Engine Airflow Z06 heads,Kooks lts,Ls edit & a few other mild goodies.Dynoed at near 400 HP.In other words the cars top rpm is going to be in the low 6K range.Perfect for what they say the warrior will do.Combined with the LS3 TB I have ,then adding 2-3 % fuel, I hope to get at the 500 BHP mark.Don't know if a TB porting would help at this point?
The W/W would be up my alley ,since I have a Z06 cammed ,stage 1.5 Total Engine Airflow Z06 heads,Kooks lts,Ls edit & a few other mild goodies.Dynoed at near 400 HP.In other words the cars top rpm is going to be in the low 6K range.Perfect for what they say the warrior will do.Combined with the LS3 TB I have ,then adding 2-3 % fuel, I hope to get at the 500 BHP mark.Don't know if a TB porting would help at this point?
