Vetter,
Could I ask where you purchased the AP M/C and what was the cost? Does outwardly look any different than the oe one?

Tnx,
Ray

 

Was there quick disco on your M/C line? If so it would be a GM line. Where did your M/C line come from?

Ray98:
Can't say. I just know the F-Body crowd saw enough increased flow that the problem was eliminated by removing the center restriction as have the Y-body owners here as have I. There may be more restrictions that can be removed but may be more difficult and expensive to remove. More Perf cut off the Quick Disco, but that brings more problems. I think the other restrictions were 1/8" and the center restriction was possibly as small as 1/32" in the center.

Can anyone confirm the center restriction size? 1/32? 1/16? 3/32 ??
I'm happy with the results of just removing the center restriction.

 

Ray, I ordered the entire Mcleod Assembly, AP master and Z06 slave through T.Byrne Motorsports. When the Master finally did arrive (very late) I already had 900 miles on the clutch assembly. The Stock M/C did not have enough hydraulics to open and close the McLeod Dual Disc at all. In fact the Dealership thought that the M/C would not make any diff in the way the clutch assembly worked, and also thought I had really burned myself "this time" on the new "bullet proof" Clutch assembly. The Master Cylinders are made by a guy in Florida named Keith. If I remember correctly the M/C was over $500.

Mellow, it has been a long time since the install. Keith in Florida does all the Modifications the Restrictions are taken care of within the lines. I dont recall what type of quick connects it had. I do remember one thing that was different, there was a long bolt that needed to be trimmed to fit my car.

BTW, once the entire Clutch assembly & (New Aluminum Flywheel)-M/C-Slave were installed. The Hydraulics were perfect, the pedal has less travel because of the bump stop placed on the bottom of the pedal. The pedal never sticks to the floor no matter what... IMO this is the best clutch setup available on the planet... total cost with parts and labor??? $3,700

Like I said, nothing great for the C5 is cheap!!

vetterdstr

 

Shirl,
I agree the example I used would tend to dramatise the issue, my intent, but despite all the sizes and different pressure drops the dynamics remain the same. I don't understand your statement that pressure "in" is less than pressure "out". How's that possible? Also in my case reducing the number of restrictions resulted in only a token increase in discharge pressure .5 psid or whatever the number was. I agree with your assumption that a high velocity low pressure is more sensitive to system configuration to a point, there's always that "point" to consider. This system given it's physical size and being dynamic in nature, at some point of operation can easily look like a high pressure system. I don't think it would take much pressure to reach critical velocity within the orifices given the size and fluid viscosity. I think I remember someone making the statement that Corvette was using one of the highest pressure systems for this application. Just heard it somewhere.
I didn't think we were talking about the system not working "well", but why it don't work at all. I wasn't aware slippage was an issue. I was under the impression we were trying to get the pedal off the damn floor.
One thing that bothers me about this is the indescriminate way it appears. If this was truly just a design issue, this would happen all the time, not just the odd case. Given all the discussion, we need to identify the "weakest link or links". My feeling on this right now (if anyone cares) The hydrolyc system is normally operating somewhere near the edge of operability and any environmental changes (high temps, crappy fliud) pushes it over the edge and failure. This would account for the apparent improvement by insulating and changeing the fluid. It would also account for the improvement in partial removal of the restrictions, even though the resulting pressure benifits are small, in the region this thing is operating any small improvement will push it back to the good side. If all that makes sense.
I still get the feeling there's a "smaller that the rest" restriction somewhere in the system that's biting us that we're not aware of. That's why I asked the size of the oil passage in the M/C, if it's real small that would screw up everything. And if AP were to take a OE M/C and drill out the oil passage wala! the problem disappears. I don't know, not enough info., but seems to make sense. And includes everyones observations.
As always your comments are appreciated.


[Modified by Ray'98, 5:12 PM 2/16/2002]

 

I will try the line. I have a Star kevlar clutch with an aluminum flywheel (some from San Jose might consider it a cheap way to go). I wasn't really interested in replacing the master nor did I think it was necessary. $500.00 for a new master seems insane. I already have the Z06 parts (my car is a Z06....dah). I have been discussing this problem with MMS for some time now. They have not bought off on the restriction in the line solving the problem either. They are in the process of a demo of a new Star clutch (but I couldn't tell you how it would help with a hydraulics problem....we will see on that one).

Like I said, I will try the line. How do we do this again? I get one from someone and then I send mine back to that person? Kind of like a chain letter.....but better. :D

 

Hey Phantom, its ok to buy what ever clutch system you want. I am not here to judge anyone on how much money they spend on parts or labor. :nono:

I had to buy the expensive M/C because that is the only one that works with the McLeod Dual Disc. So you see it was not somthing I wanted to spend money on... it was something that I had to have to make the Dual Disc work.

Some members in my area may think I am spending too much on my car... In fact I have many High $ Mods on the way now... but everybody (including myself) likes it when they see it. ;)

Thanks,

vetterdstr :cheers:


[Modified by vetterdstr, 6:12 PM 2/16/2002]

 

What makes you think the dual disc is better?

Can't wait to see all your new high dollar mods.....hopefully you can come down to our COLA ride next weekend and show me in person.....I am trying to save a few extra dollars right now to pay for the gas to go on the ride.....some of us are not as fortunate..... :jester

 

Hi again Ray,
Opps... Make that 'pressure 'out' is less than pressure 'in'... A better way to state it would be; 'discharge pressure is less than the supply pressure'... In your example, with three restrictions the discharge pressure was .5psi whereas with one restriction removed the discharge pressure was 4psi... a substantial improvement, i.e., supporting my point... As you stated, the system is marginal and may only require a small improvement to make things much better...
In response to your question about the 'smallest restriction' I have a handful of restrictions from the modifications I have completed, and they are not all the same... I have one that is .135", several that are .125", and one that is .093"... I suspect that GM has been making changes on these from time to time and that may explain why some Vette's have more trouble than others... I see no other purpose for the blob in the middle of the line other than to provide a restriction in the system, thus, I believe it is the 'smallest' restriction...
I also believe that clutch condition plays a role in this issue because those that put the greatest burden on the clutch have the most problems.. i.e. they wear them out sooner and it doesn't help that the C5 clutch is rather lame to begin with...
I appreciate the ability to banter this stuff back and forth without evoking a torch job... Thanks
Your Vette friend :cheers:
Shirl

 

Shirl,
Something else comes to mind is the black floating crud in the fluid that many people, including me, have seen. I'm thinking it stands to reason not all that stuff is in the reservoir sitting on top of the m/c. Possibly more of it dispersed throughout the fluid? If that's the case, when it finds itself trying to go through one of these orifices it could greatly impede (or block) the fluid flow as it moves back and forth. Dunno. Whaddya think? :confused:

 

Phantom, I have had 3 clutch systems in my car now.

1. The OEM unit (steel flywheel, single disc, pressure plate, stock slave, stock master.

2. McLeod Single disc, Aluminum Flywheel, McLeod Pressure Plate, Stock Slave, Stock Master

3. McLeod Dual Disc, New Aluminum Flywheel, McLeod Pressure place, Z06 slave & AP Master.

I can really tell the diff between the dual disc and the single disc. At high speed and High PRM the clutch grabs much better with no slippage.

I dont think I am going to be at the Cruise next weekend. I will be a the Corvette Challenge Series on the 8th though. We have invited everyone that can make it to join us for dinner. Maybe you would like to join us too?

You are welcome to come down and look at my car if you like... although you wont be able to see the clutch assembly because it is in the car. I may have a new brake assembly in before the 8th you can look at that too if you like. I am hard pressed to try to have anything else installed with the Event on the 8th. It never fails when you try to have something done to your car before an Event, some delays happen and you dont have a Corvette to drive for the Event. I think I hold the record for not having my car at an Event.

Take Care,

vetterdstr :cheers:





[Modified by vetterdstr, 7:30 AM 2/17/2002]

 

yada yada yada.......... :troll


[Modified by Phantom1000, 5:14 PM 2/17/2002]

 

I dont understand what your meaning is... is there something wrong with your car? :confused:

 

yada yada yada....and more yada yada yada :blueangel:


[Modified by Phantom1000, 5:14 PM 2/17/2002]

 

ok sounds good... Pizza and beer on me!! :)

vetterdstr :crazy:

 

Just so everyone understands why I said I replaced the entire clutch assembly, flywheel, slave and master....

I was getting tired of warped, worn out, sticky clutch assemblies with my car. It was frustrating and left me unable to shift like I wanted to. For me replacing one part at a time hoping to fix a problem is a PITFA. I opted to replace all the parts so I would not have problems and hopefully have a good clutch setup. My post was in no way to come across like a :conehead "know it all" or make this a $ per Mod contest. I do hope you all get your cars fixed and running correctly. God knows this is supposed to be fun!! :)

vetterdstr :cheers:

 

Shirl,
I agree that it's good we all can discuss these issues without getting our ego's in a dander. I think we did some good work here on identifing the issues and determining what the problems and possible solutions are. It takes some time and discussion to get all the facts and a feel for what's really hapening. I think we all understand this better and can act accordingly based on what, as individuals, is appropiate for us.

Still wavin!!!!
and have a good Daytona !
Ray

 

TX99,
I did some snooping and McMaster-Carr (908-329-3200)sells "Aluminized Fiber Glass Sleeve" this is good to 1000 deg. f, This is a flexable tube you can slip right over the area exposed to high temps when you have the hose disconnected. Very easy and cheep insurance. The P/N for 1" is 90035K83 but it comes in various sizes (3/4" to 3") I'm not sure what size the line requires. The cost is about $1.50 a foot.
One thing I would do when installing mine would be to secure both ends with a wire tie and then seal the loose fiber ends with like clear nail polish to prevent water from wicking up those exposed loose fibers.
Relatively painless and still have money left over for beer. If anyone tries this please let me know how it worked out.

Ray

 

I have the non-restricted line...It is great!! Cal http://www.moreperformanceinc.com and talk with Mike. Tell him George in SC said "Hi!"