P0133 code and rough idle after header and Blackwing install.
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Joined: Sep 2018
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From: Lake Charles, LA
P0133 code and rough idle after header and Blackwing install.
Hi guys, I recently finished installing my Speed Engineering headers, off road xpipe, and SLP Blackwing intake filter on my 2001 manual coupe. I recently cleaned the MAF sensor also. The car is untuned for now, I am planning on doing a mail order tune through either ECS or Chuck COW as soon as I wrap a few other things up. I drove the car a bit last night after I finished the install. A pretty noticeable gain at WOT, the car completely blows the tires off while just rolling into first. It sounds pretty good with just the stock axleback as well! However, today I drove it around a few miles and the engine light came on, as I expected it to. I assumed it would be a code for the missing rear O2 sensors, the AIR pump delete, or something related to the lack of catalytic converters, so I ignored for a bit until I came to a stop light and noticed my car was loping a bit? It sounded like it had a small cam or something, after giving it a small rev to 2k rpm, it would idle down to like 400rpm and almost die before finally going back up to the normal 750ish idle speed. When looking at my tachometer, I can see the needle cycling up and down quickly by about 50rpm, something I never noticed it doing before. I checked the code, and it turned out none of the codes I expected have popped up at all, or at least not yet. I have the code P0133, which says something about sensor 1 bank 1 having a slow response? This is the only code so far, nothing regarding the bank 2 sensor or anything, as of now at least. I carefully took the sensors out of the old manifolds, put them into the headers, carefully wrapped the wires with some heat tape, just so they couldn't get melted or anything, and installed everything as usual. The car does have a TON of exhaust leaks, however, they are all AFTER the 02 sensors where I had to use band clamps, I am planning on bringing the car in tomorrow morning to have most of the clamps removed and welded instead, I was also planning on doing the muffler bypass mod to the stock axleback as well. I will ask them if they can check for other leaks as well, although, if the collector of the header is leaking, I'm not sure how to have that fixed, but I really don't think that it is.
So, what are my options here? What could cause these issues? I will have to car on a lift tomorrow while they are welding and doing the bypass, so I should be able to check the connections and see if anything is loose or melted. I cleared the code, and it hasn't came back yet, although I only drove it around 10 miles since then. I have a Bluetooth OBD 2 connector and the Torque app on my phone, so I should be able to check the volts of the o2 sensors as well as see if it is running in open loop, I will go out and do that here shortly. I can also see LTFT and STFT and a few other things, but to be honest I have no idea what to look for or what is normal or not. I have no idea if it is running lean or rich, although I imagine if it is running in open loop it would probably fail safe to a rich state correct? Though not ideal, I should be ok to drive it around town short distances correct?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated... As I gather more information I will post updates.
Thanks in advance,
- Kevin
So, what are my options here? What could cause these issues? I will have to car on a lift tomorrow while they are welding and doing the bypass, so I should be able to check the connections and see if anything is loose or melted. I cleared the code, and it hasn't came back yet, although I only drove it around 10 miles since then. I have a Bluetooth OBD 2 connector and the Torque app on my phone, so I should be able to check the volts of the o2 sensors as well as see if it is running in open loop, I will go out and do that here shortly. I can also see LTFT and STFT and a few other things, but to be honest I have no idea what to look for or what is normal or not. I have no idea if it is running lean or rich, although I imagine if it is running in open loop it would probably fail safe to a rich state correct? Though not ideal, I should be ok to drive it around town short distances correct?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated... As I gather more information I will post updates.
Thanks in advance,
- Kevin
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Advanced
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 81
Likes: 12
From: Lake Charles, LA
Update, I hope I didn't just damage anything. But after I took it out for a trip with the diagnostics app open. Everything seemed ok, the fuel status did say closed loop 02 Sensor 1 fault. I got overconfident that the car was ok, floored it in 2nd and missed 3rd, bounced off of the rev limiter for a split second and the car died while rolling 80mph??! No unusual sounds, it just died. I have no idea how or why this happened. But now I'm afraid something major is wrong. I looked at the voltages for the 02s, it seems to be working and cycling between .2 and .9 volts, the only difference is the other sensor is cycling between .15 and .9 volts. I'm a bit lost now. I hope this isn't major. The car has been running fine on my trip back home, although I didn't push the car again even slightly.
I'm a bit desperate for advice or help now...
I'm a bit desperate for advice or help now...
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Joined: Sep 2013
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From: Cape Coral, Florida
Hey Kevin !!
Since you cleaned your MAF I’d make sure every connection to the TB is tight and leak free...I have a Black Wing too and never had any issues...if you can look at long and short fuel trims that would be great...write down your fuel trims at idle and 3000 RPM...if your long terms are positive (above 10%) and when you hold idle at 3000 RPM and the long terms start to decrease you have a vacuum leak...I’d look for any leaks upstream of the O2’s which can drive your long terms high. I’d probably get the tune before getting into the 0133...if you still have a “slow response” check your O2 voltage..with a “cold” O2 you should be reading the sensors “bias voltage”...450 Mv ...with the car running it’s best to “graph” the O2 instead of looking at the Mv !!...if it’s stuck at 450 you might have an open in the circuit...if you have a test light I can show you how to check circuit integrity while your looking at the Mv on a scan tool. A bad O2 heater circuit can also cause a slow response too...when the PCM checks the heater circuit it looks to see the O2 Mv decrease below 300 mv or an increase above 600 to check if the heater circuit is OK...if it stays between 300-600 Mv for a certain amount of time you’ll get a heater circuit DTC. Sometimes both DTC will set.
Since you cleaned your MAF I’d make sure every connection to the TB is tight and leak free...I have a Black Wing too and never had any issues...if you can look at long and short fuel trims that would be great...write down your fuel trims at idle and 3000 RPM...if your long terms are positive (above 10%) and when you hold idle at 3000 RPM and the long terms start to decrease you have a vacuum leak...I’d look for any leaks upstream of the O2’s which can drive your long terms high. I’d probably get the tune before getting into the 0133...if you still have a “slow response” check your O2 voltage..with a “cold” O2 you should be reading the sensors “bias voltage”...450 Mv ...with the car running it’s best to “graph” the O2 instead of looking at the Mv !!...if it’s stuck at 450 you might have an open in the circuit...if you have a test light I can show you how to check circuit integrity while your looking at the Mv on a scan tool. A bad O2 heater circuit can also cause a slow response too...when the PCM checks the heater circuit it looks to see the O2 Mv decrease below 300 mv or an increase above 600 to check if the heater circuit is OK...if it stays between 300-600 Mv for a certain amount of time you’ll get a heater circuit DTC. Sometimes both DTC will set.
Last edited by C5 Diag; Oct 5, 2018 at 08:25 AM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
Give us a call....
Hi guys, I recently finished installing my Speed Engineering headers, off road xpipe, and SLP Blackwing intake filter on my 2001 manual coupe. I recently cleaned the MAF sensor also. The car is untuned for now, I am planning on doing a mail order tune through either ECS or Chuck COW as soon as I wrap a few other things up. I drove the car a bit last night after I finished the install. A pretty noticeable gain at WOT, the car completely blows the tires off while just rolling into first. It sounds pretty good with just the stock axleback as well! However, today I drove it around a few miles and the engine light came on, as I expected it to. I assumed it would be a code for the missing rear O2 sensors, the AIR pump delete, or something related to the lack of catalytic converters, so I ignored for a bit until I came to a stop light and noticed my car was loping a bit? It sounded like it had a small cam or something, after giving it a small rev to 2k rpm, it would idle down to like 400rpm and almost die before finally going back up to the normal 750ish idle speed. When looking at my tachometer, I can see the needle cycling up and down quickly by about 50rpm, something I never noticed it doing before. I checked the code, and it turned out none of the codes I expected have popped up at all, or at least not yet. I have the code P0133, which says something about sensor 1 bank 1 having a slow response? This is the only code so far, nothing regarding the bank 2 sensor or anything, as of now at least. I carefully took the sensors out of the old manifolds, put them into the headers, carefully wrapped the wires with some heat tape, just so they couldn't get melted or anything, and installed everything as usual. The car does have a TON of exhaust leaks, however, they are all AFTER the 02 sensors where I had to use band clamps, I am planning on bringing the car in tomorrow morning to have most of the clamps removed and welded instead, I was also planning on doing the muffler bypass mod to the stock axleback as well. I will ask them if they can check for other leaks as well, although, if the collector of the header is leaking, I'm not sure how to have that fixed, but I really don't think that it is.
So, what are my options here? What could cause these issues? I will have to car on a lift tomorrow while they are welding and doing the bypass, so I should be able to check the connections and see if anything is loose or melted. I cleared the code, and it hasn't came back yet, although I only drove it around 10 miles since then. I have a Bluetooth OBD 2 connector and the Torque app on my phone, so I should be able to check the volts of the o2 sensors as well as see if it is running in open loop, I will go out and do that here shortly. I can also see LTFT and STFT and a few other things, but to be honest I have no idea what to look for or what is normal or not. I have no idea if it is running lean or rich, although I imagine if it is running in open loop it would probably fail safe to a rich state correct? Though not ideal, I should be ok to drive it around town short distances correct?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated... As I gather more information I will post updates.
Thanks in advance,
- Kevin
So, what are my options here? What could cause these issues? I will have to car on a lift tomorrow while they are welding and doing the bypass, so I should be able to check the connections and see if anything is loose or melted. I cleared the code, and it hasn't came back yet, although I only drove it around 10 miles since then. I have a Bluetooth OBD 2 connector and the Torque app on my phone, so I should be able to check the volts of the o2 sensors as well as see if it is running in open loop, I will go out and do that here shortly. I can also see LTFT and STFT and a few other things, but to be honest I have no idea what to look for or what is normal or not. I have no idea if it is running lean or rich, although I imagine if it is running in open loop it would probably fail safe to a rich state correct? Though not ideal, I should be ok to drive it around town short distances correct?
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated... As I gather more information I will post updates.
Thanks in advance,
- Kevin
Hey Kevin.
Give us a call any time. The symptoms you're having could possibly be electrical / mechanical but more likely just the routine stuff
that happens when you install an exhaust and intake.... Pretty common stuff.
Your tuning is a bit different than most mail order stuff as our tool allows us to check and re-check after each adjustment to make sure
nothing is left on the table and that you're safely making the best gains available for your mods.
Call any time at 914-332-0049
Chuck CoW
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Advanced
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 81
Likes: 12
From: Lake Charles, LA
Another update. The code came back after clearing it yesterday. This time along with the P0153 code (slow response from sensor 2), and finally the expected codes for the rear 02 sensors missing. Anyways, both front o2s are doing it now. I can't seem to find too much info on the issue, except that it may be caused by the sensors not being hot enough? If that is the case, I've heard claims that if the rear o2 sensors aren't set to not report an error, the car thinks the cats are overheating so it dumps a bunch of fuel, making it run really rich in order to cool them down. If this is true, maybe this could be cooling the sensors down and causing the issue?
The car is in the shop now having some of the clamps removed and welded around to seal the leaks. The muffler bypass mod is being done as well. I'm still really worried about the car completely dying after hitting the rev limiter when missing a shift. I may end up making a new thread on this, as I do believe it is a totally different issue than the o2 sensor codes.
The car is in the shop now having some of the clamps removed and welded around to seal the leaks. The muffler bypass mod is being done as well. I'm still really worried about the car completely dying after hitting the rev limiter when missing a shift. I may end up making a new thread on this, as I do believe it is a totally different issue than the o2 sensor codes.
Last edited by LSKevin117; Oct 5, 2018 at 01:05 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
So, the car is still not tuned?
Another update. The code came back after clearing it yesterday. This time along with the P0153 code (slow response from sensor 2), and finally the expected codes for the rear 02 sensors missing. Anyways, both front o2s are doing it now. I can't seem to find too much info on the issue, except that it may be caused by the sensors not being hot enough? If that is the case, I've heard claims that if the rear o2 sensors aren't set to not report an error, the car thinks the cats are overheating so it dumps a bunch of fuel, making it run really rich in order to cool them down. If this is true, maybe this could be cooling the sensors down and causing the issue?
The car is in the shop now having some of the clamps removed and welded around to seal the leaks. The muffler bypass mod is being done as well. I'm still really worried about the car completely dying after hitting the rev limiter when missing a shift. I may end up making a new thread on this, as I do believe it is a totally different issue than the o2 sensor codes.
The car is in the shop now having some of the clamps removed and welded around to seal the leaks. The muffler bypass mod is being done as well. I'm still really worried about the car completely dying after hitting the rev limiter when missing a shift. I may end up making a new thread on this, as I do believe it is a totally different issue than the o2 sensor codes.
Keep us posted.
Chuck CoW
