:lol:

Probably not... It is too much trouble and there are too many variables to test it properly for most of us, and GM is never gonna tell. So we "discuss" the issues. :D

Yeah, but how many people still think it is? I guess I should give up, if someone wants to believe in it, what the heck. Maybe I'm that kid who goes around saying there isn't a Santa Claus just a little too soon for the other kids.

Well, actually. That coupe you are asking me about has a Breathless on it. My thinking was this: The coupe has no CAI vents in front of the car, and no holes cut in the top of the air filter housing like the Z06. It has four tiny holes that aim straight at the radiator shroud for it's air source. It looks VERY restrictive to me.

So the Vortex, if nothing else, offered a great deal more air to the engine, and cooler air. But I was never convinced it made a huge difference. Maybe a little...

But on the Z06, you already have the aforementioned extra features, so I haven't bothered to put a CAI on mine.

That's a nice way to put that! :D I just get irritated when the preachers get too religous about a certain brand of CAI or "ram-air." There are SEVERAL recent vararam discussions that I have stayed out of because I didn't see any ridiculous or horribly misinformative posts in the thread. I don't pounce on every vararam claim or thread.

:lol:

Yeah, but it is so much FUN. And, more important, I occasionally stumble across new information in my debates and actually LEARN something. Which is my main reason for the debates.


[Modified by Tom Steele, 4:30 PM 1/7/2003]

 

One other thing Levi.

I didn't jump in, or on, this thread to debate the vararam. I just found the story presented here about the injectors AWFULLY unliklely. I'd like very much to hear the outcome of this story and I'd REALLY like to hear from anyone who knows definitively if there really is a "fallback" fuel injector that GM goes to when they run out of the OEM Bosch units. And if this "rumored injector" really has a lower output and cannot handle any extra airflow.

It just sounds like a load of crap to me and I'll gladly apologize if I am wrong. But I have NEVER heard of anything like this and I'd think that if it isn't true, then that adds another piece to the whole puzzle if you follow.

My carpal tunnel is starting to act up, gotta go!

:)

 

I cannot believe this "Ram-Air" crap is still going on? Just this morning I saw another quote from Carrol Shelby's "Tune to win". :rolleyes:

Why is this one point so important to you? Does anyone really care about "Ram Air"? I guess Mr Steele feels that it is his duty to convince every single member on the forum that "Ram-Air" does not exists. I am still not sure why you are wasting time trying to preach this to people on the forums. I have to figure that it would be more fun to actually run some tests off your car or actually race the car at the track as opposed to running your fingers over a keyboard.

I almost forget, you probably did jump into this thread to debate the VR ;) :steering:

 

This doesn't make sense. Your original post said this was happening at basically a just off-idle condition (slight acceleration to deceleration). The MAF knows exactly how much air is coming through at those power settings. In theory the MAF may be overcome at WOT by the abundance of air, but I seriously doubt it.

I agree with the others that you've most likely got an air leak, and it's probably between the MAF and the intake. That would explain the significant leaning. Also, a leak will be most noticable at low or idle settings, because the amount of contribution of air at the leak becomes smaller as you demand more power, and thusly more air. Check around all the band clamps for folded or torn rubber on the air bridge and see if something pops up.

Hope this helps,
Mike

 

me too.

 

I told you it'd catch up with you ;)

 

Quote
That is precisely WHY I don't call him. I assume you are a pretty knowledgable guy when it comes to cars. And I'm willing to bet, that if you are, you have spent MANY a conversation with someone who you felt like didn't know what they were talking about, but you wanted to be nice and nod your head while they talked about their 10 second (insert car of your choice) ride that you knew ran a 14 on a good day. Or the salesman at the dealership (or heck, Circuit City for that matter) who tells you some wild-azzed crap that you know is nonsense because MOST of the guys he talks to don't know anything about the car (stereo) that they are buying and he can say anything he wants and they will believe it.

I'm not overly confrontational in person (or on the phone). I'd just say, "sure, yeah, whatever" and try to get off the phone and use my time more wisely.

Or maybe I'd say, "I'm not sure I understand that" or "I'm not sure I agree with that completely" a couple of times, but then get to hear even MORE crap spewed forth while I now have to listen to the answer to the question I posed.

To be honest, and I don't think I said otherwise in my original post here, I can't say for CERTAIN that there aren't other injectors with less headroom used when the standard injectors run low at the plant. I'd BET AGAINST it, and bet even bigger against it making any difference, but I don't have the time to try and find out the answer to that. I'm not even sure HOW to find the answer to that, or I might even waste the time trying.

But that is the beauty of a story like that. Blame it on something that is almost impossible to verify (but isn't YOUR fault) and hopefully the customer is happy with the BS answer you gave.

I called Patrick on his cell phone.. number supplied with invoice late on a friday night. I am sure he was probably with his SO eating dinner or whatever normal people do on a friday night. My question for Patrick was completely stupid, thinking back now. He was courteous and helpful. He did not come across as a wrench head trying to get a dumba** off the phone. :lol: He has everything to lose and nothing to gain by a customer that is not satisfied. Now on to the debate
:nopity

 

After reading all this I'm glad I went with the Breathless system. The Vararam sounded like a better concept but I was more afraid of the water potential.

 

From the 2001 Service Manual:

Idle Learn Procedure

The learned idle procedure needs to be done if any of the following events occur:

- The powertrain control module (PCM) is disconnected
- The battery is disconnected
- The PCM loses power
- The PCM is reprogrammed

The engine idle is unstable when the learned idle position is lost.

Automatic Transmission
Perform the following procedure in order to return the learned idle to the correct position:

- Turn OFF the ignition.
- Restore the PCM battery feed.
- Turn OFF the A/C controls.
- Set the parking brake, and block the drive wheels.
- Start the engine.
- Ensure that the engine coolant temperature is more than 80°C (176°F).
- Shift the transmission into Drive.
- Allow the engine to idle for 5 minutes.
- Shift the transmission into Park.
- Allow the engine to idle for 5 minutes.
- Turn OFF the engine for 30 seconds.

Manual Transmission
Perform the following procedure in order to return the learned idle to the correct position:

- Turn OFF the ignition.
- Restore the PCM battery feed.
- Turn OFF the A/C controls.
- Set the parking brake, and block the drive wheels.
- Place the transmission in Neutral.
- Start the engine.
- Ensure that the engine coolant temperature is more than 80°C (176°F).
- Allow the engine to idle for 5 minutes.
- Turn OFF the engine for 30 seconds.

 

Thanks very much for the information. I have a 2002 and could not find anything about it in the manual.

 

The "idle learn procedure" is not in the 2002 manual. FWIW, I've made lots of PCM & air box changes to my 2002 and I have never done it. I never had a problem.

 

The Breathless Vortex system is much more likely to ingest water than the Vararam.. I have had both so I speak from experience..

The vortex is still better than most bottom feeders (IE Haltech) but don’t be fooled into thinking that it wont suck in water if you get into "too deep" of a puddle..

Drive smart and stay aware at all times when using any aftermarket intake.. :yesnod:

 

Gentlemen and I am certain... ladies of the forum,

Let me begin with a disclaimer and an apology. Firstly, I AM NOT a mechanic nor do I claim to be a mechanic or certified GM technician. I do understand a little (Read: Very little only) bit about the internal combustion engine and that is mostly only in theory. I have tinkered with many a mustang when I was in school, but only recently, have I looked under the hood of my vette and tried to make some sense of what I see.

Secondly, Patrick, I apologize for writing pieces of our conversation on a public forum that have been widely misconstrued and taken way out of base to be used as the basis of debates with little value to the initial issue at hand. One of these days I will quit being lazy and actually state more of the situation and conversation when I begin to ramble in these public forums, hoping for some glimmer of light in an otherwise dark world of confusion. I guess I was thinking that someone else might have had a bright idea spurned on by my mentioning what I could remember of our phone conversation and say, oh, well here is what is wrong and it is this simple to fix.

Right here and now, I would also like to reserve the right to make and/or have made a mistake or to have mis-understood something that was told to me over the cell phone that morning while I was driving to the airport talking to Patrick again about this issue, heading off to business trips for the week, and weaving in and out of traffic, late for the plane.

This evening was my first time to wind down at the hotel, so I thought I would just jump on to look in at some of the threads, And I have to say that I feel I have created a monster that requires me tending a bit to. I am not defending. I am just trying to set a few expectations.

I have not done any research on the subjects or recommendations that were given me. I am not an expert.

It should be noted here: I love the Vararam! I love it because I think with it and the Z06 screens, I have a finished looking front end on my otherwise expensive car that previously looked like it had been filled with cheap filler plastic in those well noticed front areas. And I also believe, if only somewhere in my own mind, that this product uses those areas for what some of the original designers of the C5 were thinking when they put them in there in the first place. End of story. I feel like the car is faster. Why? I don't care. It doesn't matter. Would I do it again, Hell yes!

I hope that I have given no impression of Patrick or his company's product other than he has been helpful and is trying to help me figure out a small, insignificant but anoying anomoly that has come about on my car... and that I like his product.

I do not know much about the corvettes considering some of the members of this forum. I have never dynoed my car. I have never raced my car on strip or enclosed race track, though I hope to some day soon. I drive it everyday that I am in Austin, Tx and a few that I take it outside of that area. I bought it because my wife thought it was cool, I like to drive fast, I can fit inside it (with a 6'6" frame and 260lbs to spare,) and I like the way it sounds when I step on the go pedal. (pause for effect...) The rest is trivial. I thought you guys might be able to help us figure out what might be going on with the car...

It should be painfully obvious that I have no report with the Lucas injectors as I could not even remember whose they were.

As for the idle relearn, I have never done this. I have heard many members say that the car will do all that cool stuff, itself, over time. Heck, that's one reason why the car is so expensive and let's not forget we are many revs into the GM software. I mean, we didn't buy a hyundai, right? Is this a Microsoft car, one that you have to reboot every so often, just to give it a chance to work? I sure hope not.

Guys, I love this forum. Please do not misconstrue anything I say as gospel. I am listening to what all of you have to say, until this post, was hopefully making some friends or aquaintances, and I will make a judgement based on many pieces of information, then I will try some things to see what happens.

I think it would be hilerious if this turned out to be that I didn't shove the filter down far enough into the tunnels and I am getting some turbulence at the top end of the ram tunnels. BTW, I will check for that Friday when I get back to Texas.

Ahhh, (sigh of relief) Thanks for letting me vent. Thanks for understanding. And I will continued to keep you updated on the saga if some of you are interested.

BTW, I sure hope this doesn't lower my rating. I think I am down to one star as it is now. :cheers:

 

It wasn't Carroll Shelby. It was Carroll Smith...
http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/tune2win.html

or
http://www.sae.org/servlets/productD...&PROD_CD=B-704

He's really quite an accomplished racer, I'm not sure why you dislike him so much. Heck, I bet he could get a Z06 to run better than 12.50 at E-Town! ;)

 

Keep banging on that keyboard buddy.

 

Hopefully a final update.

Talking to Patrick, he mentioned about the filter not being far enough down on the two Ram tunnels. That he would make me another filter and ship to me if I needed it. So, this weekend, when I got back to Austin, I checked again for air leaks to no avail, then opened the system up and really pressed the filter all the way down to the Ram Tunnels.

I am ashamed.. :banghead: .. 2 days, no surge. :hurray: We shall see, but it looks good. Thanks again for all the help... and mayhem. :)