I have a mm6 with Billy Boat Bullets, TPS 1 7/8 headers w/o cats. I want a decent cam that'll give me as much power as it can, but I also worry about it being too loud for my neighbors in the apartment complex. Yes, I know cams are loud. I do have plans to do heads down the road, 3.90 gears, and an MSD intake. I have narrowed my selection to TorqueMax Stage 2, BTR stage 2/3, or TSP Torquer v2/3. I honestly don't know a lot about cams. I am leaning towards the Tick cam, but open to suggestions.

 

I think most of the cams your considering will work well with ported cylinder heads and Fast 92/102 intake.

EPS - Engine Power Systems has a well proven 226/234 ~.60x/~.60x lift cam on a 113 LSA that's well proven to make 470+ whp with aTF215 heads and a Fast intake manifold. It's smaller than the cams you've listed but pretty close to an ideal 1st cam in my opinion and experience.

What's the max rpm you want to spin the engine to? That needs to be decided before a cam or intake is selected. It's very easy to end up with a nasty mismatched set up.

The MSD intake excels over 6,600 rpm but sucks for power under the curve compared to a Fast 92/102 (under 6,500 rpm) on a 346 cube LS1/LS6. If shifting at ~7,300 rpm in the future the MSD intake is a good choice otherwise it's a terrible choice. If spinning to 7,000+ rpm take care in selecting correct valve train & lifters etc otherwise there will be potential issues down the road.

The TSP Torquer v2 is probably a ~6,500 rpm cam and poor match for the high rpm MSD intake. It's a good match for the Fast 92/102 intake manifolds. The TSP Torquer v3 is similar to the v2, but started making power earlier and had a reputation for being a bit harder to tune than the v2.

The Tick SNS Stage 2 is also another 6,500 rpm cam that's good match for the Fast 92/102 intake manifolds and poor match for the MSD intake. It also had a reputation for being a bit harder to tune than typical due to the 110 LSA.

BTR Stage 2 - 227/238 - 113.5 LSA - with 6 degrees of overlap, I'd probably be willing to deal with it in an LS1/LS6 with the 3.90 or 4.11 gears and extra compression from ported or aftermarket heads.

BTR Stage 3 - 231/244 -112.5 LSA - with 12.5 degrees of overlap, I'd not want to deal it in an LS1/LS6 driveablity wise. Don't think it's a good 1st cam unless your very familiar with how this would drive. Others may feel differently etc

YMMV - my opinion is based on 23 years of owning and driving four LS cars that were either stock, bolt on, had heads & cam or stroker engines.

 

Call someone like Tony Mamo and see what he recommends. Maybe go with his heads in the future.

I have a 230/236 .592/.602 114 with catless longtubes and GHL catback and I don't think everyone in my neighborhood is a fan. I try to be respectful and not start the car before 9am or after 10pm on weekends. I don't drive it during the week at all really. I also live in an apartment complex.

I'd also consider 410s over 390s. I have 390s in my mn12 and love them.

 

Give Cam Motion a call and tell about your setup and future plans. Try to be specific about your driving conditions, hp and speed goals. They have some off the shelf cams but do mostly custom grinds for an individuals needs.

Regarding noise, that will be determined by you headers, to an extent, and your cat back system. The cam will dictate the tone or idle rhythm. If your care about your neighbors buy some quieter cat backs, that might save your hearing too.

As far as gears, absolutely, positively get 3.90s or 4.10s. In fact, I would recommend getting the gears first. They make such a tremendous improvement in acceleration, that it may affect how far you decide to go on a cam. Well designed midrange cams with 580ish lift will max out the stock 241 heads, and with low gears are really fun to drive and have good manners around town.

 

Regarding noise, Vette4fl makes an excellent point the exhaust system plays the major role in determining how loud the car is rather than the cam. I've seen a LS1 with ported heads, cam, intake, headers, no cats and a quite free flowing catback beside a stock LS1 with a loud catback and the stock LS1 w/loud catback was louder.

 

The EPS cam you recommended should be an excellent cam for the OP. Should really make the car come alive without ruining street manners....

 

I have the toquer v2 if you want check out my build thread. I have heads that cam, fast 92, 3.90s. Before the 3.90s I made 440rwhp and 403rwtrq.

 

I helped on a CamMotion Titan stg 4, old AFR205, FAST92, LS2 tb, Kooks 1.75" with cats and GHL mufflers. Final #s 452rwhp 414 rwtq.
https://cammotion.com/recently-resto...227-232-113-4/

I am on a Cam Motion 232/236 112+2 612/612 once you get into the 230s on the intake, surge gets to be a problem returning to idle. I'd also very much recommend a 3.73 or more gear if you go over 228. I'm on 3.73s and really like it. I would not go to 3.90s or 4.10s. A cam with 226 to 228 on the intake, 6 speed with 3.73s would be a fun street car, versatile to drag race, cruise on the hwy and run road courses if you want.

If you are having someone else tune the car I'd talk to them to see what they like. I'd also keep the cam to 226-228 on the intake, especially if you haven't had a cammed car. You're kind of splitting hairs between the choices. I prefer CamMotion. They typically have stable lobes and are consistent with grinding what is on the cam card. EPS also often uses CamMotion. I've really liked the conversations I've had with EPS and would have gone with them. However, a local shop ran a great deal on the cam in my car. My prior car had a Futral (CamMotion) F11 228/230 great torque, fun on the street.

 

I once ran that 232°/236° .598"/.603" lift on a 112° LSA, a Futral by Cam Motion cam. I had it in a Darton sleeved 427. No surging/bucking of any type. I think the larger cube motor helped tame it. I now run a built LS7 in the same C5, with a Futral by Cam Motion Cam. But the duration is MUCH different, due to the LS7 heads needing exhaust side flow help. Intake is the same@232°, but exhaust duration is up by 14°, to 250°, on the same 112° LSA, with about the same lift. Even though it is a big cube motor, and tuned by the same tuner, that 250° is a lot of duration, even for a big engine. It's very streetable, and pulls down 22-23mpg on the highway. But even though the same guy tuned it as before, and he's damn good, it still bucks occasionally at speeds under 50mph, unless you give it just a wee bit of throttle .......

 

The extra ~80 cubic inches will keep it from surging. 232/236 is on the small side for a 427. Futral did have some great cams.

I managed ~30mpg going from Atlanta to Orlando on 3.42s with 27-28 on the return trip. 3.73s dropped each about 2-3mpg.

 

As others have mentioned, cams dont create excessive exhaust noise.....headers bump that up some.....no cats (vs with cats) bumps that up some, and mufflers probably play the largest role. Bullets dont have valves to keep things quiet and are louder than say the Fusion mufflers from the same company which has two modes (more desirable for your situation).

I can help you with a custom cam....gimme 10 - 15 mins on the phone asking you the proper questions and getting a feel of what your doing and I will get you a cam grind you will be very happy with.

Also I dont think anyone has even mentioned valve springs.....you cant just stuff an aftermarket cam in a car and run the limp noodle OEM springs. You need to match the springs to the cam lift to the application etc.

Everything has to work together to get you the most output from your engine (maximizing your investment), but you had better budget some additional money for aftermarket springs and retainers etc.


I have spec'ed and set up literally hundreds of combinations over the years.....I will help you achieve what your looking for assuming your goals are realistic (and tell you what is realistic if you don't have the experience to know any better).

Call or email preferred over PM's....Im just slower responding to PM's but all three methods will ultimately get you in touch with me

Regards,
Tony
661-714-1317

 

Yeah, I have never had a cammed car. I'm going to take y'all's advice and go with a milder one so I can keep drivability as I still want to DD the car.

 

Tony certainly knows his stuff and maximizing power is paying attention to the detail which he is an expert on.

Try to get around some heads and cam cars and see what you like. How much lope do you want, what are your goals, budget, and use?

Noise is a combination of many things, compression, cam, exhaust (muffler style, material, diameter, cats or not). If you go digging Sidestep dynoed his heads and cam car with and without cats with his LG 1 3/4" pros and they cost very little HP. Cats do act as mufflers. I modified a set of factory mid pipes which are thicker mild steel and smaller diameter than the LG Pro's 3" stainless, and they were much louder. The idea was to run my LG Pros, their 3" cats and go to the smaller diameter factory pipes helping torque but the volume was louder than I wanted. The car was never dyno'd to see the results. I want to put my car on Road Atlanta or Atlanta Motorsports Park road courses and I think I would exceed the sound restrictions with the modified factory mid pipes. It goes to show how various things impact sound.

For mufflers, Z06 Ti's flow well and keep sound down. I have a set if I need them for noise restrictions. If you want less lope you can have a great power band with various versions of the ~224 cam. Torque is fun, peak #s are great to bench race. If I built a daily driver with a 3.42 geared 6 speed, I'd be tempted to go with an EPS 222/226 or one of the many 224/228 cams but sad to say I am not 25. Going up to 228 is still pretty easy to tune and run great on 3.42s.

My old Futral cammed car had ported TEA 5.3 heads (more compression), the F11 cam, Kooks 1.75, GHL mufflers (Borla stinger style), Kooks at the time offered a mild steel? OEM grade center section that was a 3" x pipe and 2.5" after, It was loud and I lived in an apartment. Kind of surprised I didn't face complaints but it also wasn't worse than some of Harleys.


Tony is also correct on valve springs. Whoever, you talk about cams discuss the springs as well. I'd also go with the largest diameter pushrod the heads will allow. Factory casting is limited 11/32nds which Summit and others offer now. Measure your pushrods, do not go with the default 7.4" We measured our pushrods with 8" Pittsburgh calipers, very inexpensive. When you order pushrods, tell them how you measured them. I am running Manton 3/8"s and they do not measure tip to tip.

I'd replace the oil pump with a Melling high pressure standard volume, front seal, front cover seal, timing chain set (gears and chain). Sac City has alignment tools for the front cover buy the tool to line it up.

Lifters are another thing to consider. I wouldn't run LS7 lifters, the friend with the Titan 4 is running Morel drop ins which would be my go to on a budget setup. I am on Johnson 2110 lifters. I sprung for the Johnsons as I have a set of Edelbrock West Coast Cylinder Heads ported 215s with larger valves, and I wanted to turn more RPM. The heads came with the car. If I had a bit more confidence I would have run Johnson short travel lifters. Katech's youtube channel has a good video for measuring pushrods. Scruffs garage also has some good videos.

You do have to pull the heads to replace the lifters. I wouldn't trust the factory lifters new with a healthy cam and the factory lifters are ~20 years old. I'd replace the head gaskets with new GM gaskets, It would be a good idea to surface the heads for clean up. If you have a base model, 243 castings would be a nice upgrade if you can find clean set at a reasonable price. However again define your goals, budget and timeline. You maybe better off saving and doing it all at the same time with aftermarket heads. Tony has some budget offerings. You maybe better off waiting a bit rather than buying springs/retainers then surfacing heads then pulling all that off for aftermarket or ported heads which come with springs/retainers.

Do your own research on fitting the MSD intake. I thought it required some mods to fit. My car had a FAST92/LS2 throttle body which I have stuck with. A FAST 102 clears with shorter motor mounts. I think about chasing the last bit of power but it isn't worth it to me with other projects waiting. The FAST 92 is pretty much bolt on. We don't mess with the provided button head valley cover bolts as we grind the heads down on the OEM bolts with a bench grinder.

You maybe a bit over whelmed but ask questions. I am a professional bean counter but with all the information out now, the DIYer can install a heads and cam build doing their own work. The friend with the Titan 4 is on Road Atlanta today. We built the motor up from a short block and tuned it.


My nephew picked up a LS1 GTO So..I was pricing out a cam kit on a budget and this is what I came up with:
Summit cam 300 not my first choice but $300
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-8707r1
Morel lifters 260
head gasket 65
BTR 11/32 pushrods 110
BTR springs 300
Straub Trunnion Upgrade 185
timing chain set 255
oil pump 185
front seal 8.6
timing cover gasket 31
water pump gasket 5.46
ARP head bolts 120
BTR lifter guide/tray 27

For:
1852.06 plus what you decide to do with injectors, heads, and some other odds and ends/various seals gaskets

 

We’re here to assist you emptying your bank accounts. Anything you want to spend.

These upgrades can get expensive (out of hand!) right quick. $1850 is just the resort fee.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but suggesting maybe pump the brakes and break this down into smaller chunks with intentional order.

We live in a group of “while you’re in there”, which makes sense to a point. For example, if you were “just swapping heads” it make sense to change the lifters because they would be accessible. Changing the cam at this point is no easier now than later.

So what’s next cam, or gears?

Your engine already breaths a whole lot better with good heads and headers , so it’s gonna like revving up fast with a set of low gears, and she’ll be handing you the warp drive right out of the hole.

Or, if you want to scare the hell out of everyone on the street stick a big cam in there so you can go 90 mph in a stock second gear. I’ve done the math for you, and you can.

Either way now you have two options that on their own are very manageable, and in either order will provide data helping you decide what makes sense for your next step.

 

I do get some cam surge with the torquer v2 cam. It's not to bad though. But like others have said give some of the vendors a call and see what they say. I actually decided on all my stuff after doing research here on the forums.

 

True the 1850 was not a final #. Also don't forget about tools needed for the job. Various odds and end may need attention on a 20 year old car. Steam port gaskets were not included in the list but another relatively inexpensive gasket which I would do. You'll have to pull the steam vent cross over tube to get the heads off and thus the gaskets.

If you have a stock clutch and are adding a cam, you'll need to upgrade the clutch and inspect the torque tube. I was also assuming the stock harmonic balancer was upgraded or previously in the budget. That is another topic which has been covered in depth in multiple topics.

 

Yeah, right now, I am having a Monster LT1s, flywheel, rear main seal, torque tube bushings and bearings, slave cylinder with speed bleeder, and axle seals.