Howdy Boys I have an 2004 M6 car I recently acquired that was in disrepair [non runner when I bought it] but have now completed phase 2 of the overhaul and she's running, shifting, and most importantly braking now lol I've swapped all the fluids and and now am turning my attention to sprucing up the driveline. At present, it's got 241 heads which from my research are pretty good flowing heads [as most cathedral port heads]. The balance at present has a wobble which is causing the serp belt to chirp at time so it's time for a replacement. I hate doing work twice so since I have to pull the rack, balancer I figured I would mind as well do the cam, timing chain, timing cover, and HV oil pump while I'm in there for piece of mind. So that brings me to my main question...is it worth doing the heads to?

Background / Goals:

• I'm mechanically inclined and do my own work. Swapped out plenty of heads and cams in a gen 1 SBC's
• Not looking to set the world on fire, but close to 400 rwhp would be nice.
• 2004 so LS6 intake.

Option #1 - Cheapest

• Keep 241 heads and have them cleaned up with a valve job and milled for a 64cc chamber.
• Texas Speed 228/232 or Torquer V2 <--anyone with real world experience on either of these cams?
• LS7 lifters
• Trunnion kit for stock rockers.

Option # 2 - Middle of the road expense

• Replace 241 heads with a rebuilt set of 243s at $750 buck shipped [ebay rebuilder with 6 month warranty]. I wont be porting as I don't wanna spend an additional grand with AI or TSP.
• Texas Speed 228/232 or Torquer V2 <--anyone with real world experience on either of these cams?
• LS7 lifters
• Trunnion kit for stock rockers.

Option #3 - Most expensive

• ProHeader CNC Ported heads - Super suspicious on this one as its 1/2 the cost of PRC or AI CNC heads but the flow numbers look pretty good. This
• Texas Speed 228/232 or Torquer V2 <--anyone with real world experience on either of these cams?
• LS7 lifters
• Trunnion kit for stock rockers.

Like I said, I don't wanna set the world on fire, but also don't want to spend more then I "need to". I come from the gen 1 SBC of heads and cam = power and torque. But as I learn about the LS motors, it seems heads dont have as dramatic a pickup as a gen 1 guys were used to [which is great to have good flowing factory castings]. Any insight or real world experience would be appreciated as I like to cut once and cry once lol

Cheers,

Joe

 

I have the torquer v2 cam and it makes great power. Check out my build thread in the performance section. It has a little bit of cam surge in the lower rpm range (usually just going slow) but once you get used to it you will find when you need to down shift or what not to get it to stop. I made 440rwhp (h/c/i) with the stock 3.42s don't know what she makes now with the 3.90s but I'm sure I didn't lose much power. Torque with the 3.42s was 403.

 

Thanks for the insight Bad. Your motor sounds pretty worked over from the mods list. A little cam surge I can live with having driven cam'ed hot rods most my life. poor mans solution is simple...keeping it in the revs lol

 

I am facing an extremely similar dilemma. I too will need to do the balancer this year, and while I'm in there....

Without getting into too much personal opinion, and what I would do in this situation etc etc. My vote would be to cam it, leave the heads alone other than springs. Run it, digest it. Can always do heads later without doing the work twice if you feel you need more power.

I don't have personal experience with those cams, or any cams for LS, but it's a similar cam to one I've had my eye on from Cam Motion called the Track Weapon. I like that cam because it has gobs of torque mid range, can still spin it high, but keeps lift a little lower so can get away with PAC 1218 springs and won't need hardened pushrods. I would expect 380-400 HP on stock heads and the Track Weapon Cam. Maybe a little more with the cams you mention up top, but will need some more valvetrain upgrades.

 

Yea with my setup I can turn it 7000rpms. I usually shift at about 6900rpms

 

Hey Mark,

I guess for me, I'm stuck in my gen 1 SBC processes lol On those heads always have to come off for a cam swap to get lifters. Apparently on the LS's you can still a dowl rod through the front of the block to hold the lifters up and leave heads intact. Heads off though...I could at least inspect lifters and maybe de-carbon tops of pistons. Not that it's necessary...but I have the terrible technicians curse lol I need to see it to know its ok lol

I will take a look at your cam. I was planning on using PAC 1218 or 1219 springs myself with something .600 and below. I personally like my cams and associated hardware to be born together and die together...Although I know with roller rockers that aint required.

Joe

 

Sheesh you got that motor singing my man lol

 

You will get a pretty good idea of how your lifters are doing by taking out the stock cam and looking for any wear. Also by checking lash on the rockers.

But if you're taking the heads off no matter what anyone says, then I would do option 2 and get the 243 heads. Stock v stock they're good for about 15WHP over 241s. Another option if you don't trust just anybodys rebuild on the heads would be to get AFR Enforcer headsIt will be a few more bucks though. Flow slightly better than 243, use great valvetrain components, and built by a company any SBC-guy will trust.

 

FWIW, Enforcer heads are Chinese cast, at minimum. They may, or may not, be assembled in China, as well. Again, FWIW, if I were buying aftermarket AFR heads, I'd blow right past the Enforcer's and go with the Mongoose 225's. Maybe the 205s if running an A4. My opinion.

 

Yeah, what doesn't china make or copy these days Grinder. $5,000 in heads is kind of a tough sell on all but the most extreme all out efforts. I'm looking for more a budget build to add some hurrrrrspurrrs.

 

So after all of yalls input, I went with...

Option #1

• Keep 241 heads and have them cleaned up with a valve job and milled for a 64cc chamber.
• Will be doing summit balancer, billet double roller timing set, melling HV oil pump, timing cover while I'm there
• Texas Speed 228/232
• LS7 lifters <- Will inspect lifters while its apart and if they look good will run them...but kinda leaning towards just slapping new boys in there. We shall see.
• Trunnion kit for stock rockers.
• Speed Engineering and X pipe

I know I will have to do some work to the headers, but I can TIG weld and plan on retaining the AIR system and cats [cheapy flowmasters for visual] as I have emissions here in VA. I wanna enjoy the car a bit this spring before tearing into her, but I will be sure to post back with updates.

Cheers Boys...and thanks for the suggestions,

Joe

 

Good luck on the build. I have no problems helping out others. Best way to give back to the community if you ask me.

 

Agreed I'm doing all the fun stuff before I deal with clutch and sending unit Got the wonky fuel gauge blues. it's an 04 so yeah...im tryin EVERYTHING before engauging in rear cradle drop action. Yes I got some Techron in it so I'm waiting to see if that cures my wacky gauge. Clutch feels good but I aint really romp'ed on it yet...and I wanna romp in confidence.

 

IMHO, leave the stock trunnions in the rockers. I bought the Comp kit, and it wore out prematurely, sending particles of metal all thru the engine. I had a .638"/.646" lift cam, .238°/242° duration, 114° LSA, with fairly stiff PAC 1905 springs (160lbs seat/420lbs open), and ran stock trunnions without any issues. I ran stock trunnions for 30,000 miles with a different cam. No issues. Stupid me, I go and buy the Comp kit, and the trunnions were junk in 15,000 miles, plus contaminated the engine internals. I then went to the latest BTR V2 trunnions, and so far, no KNOWN issues. But, once you've pressed out the old trunnions, the only way to go back to stock is buying new rockers. As far as the heads go, like most things, you get what you pay for. Heads are probably the one engine component that is more important than any other when it comes to making big power. My opinion.......

 

I may be missing something here, but since when do the SBC engines need head removal to access the lifters to change cams?? The LS engines do, but not the SBC, at least any of them I've ever worked on....

 

I thought the AFR 205s and 225s were around $3,000.00? Maybe I'm wrong.....

EDIT!!!!!!!! There are some ported (by Texas Speed) 243s for sale for $1,400 in C5 parts for sale section......

 

Good to know about the Comp Cam trunnions. I remember reading somewhere about the stock trunions coming apart at higher RPMs on motors that were reved, but Can't recall if that was LS1 or not.

The AFR's may be the price you said, but I googled the Mongoose ones you listed and it started at 5k a head. Ported 243's for $1,400 is doable though. Can you link me with that listing? I though I did a search and I didnt come up with any recent hits.

As far as the SBC lifters...yes, after the intake is off...on a FRESH MOTOR...you may be able to spin the cam over and grab the lifters from the sides and up and out. Many times [at least in my case] when they get some miles on em and oil changes weren't a priority...they get stuck in the bore. Then it's either vice grip time or the lifter puller thingy-a-ma-bob that grips the inner lip of the lifter. My point was...just easier to remove when the head is off [albeit not required]. When I was wrenching for pay...no way I did a cam without either changing from stock heads to aftermarket, or at least HIGHLY recommending at least taking the heads of to have them checked...if all good and just needing clean up...slap a new FelPro Gasket on and send it. Had one job one time where dude didn't want to pay the labor so I left the heads on and slapped the cam and sent it. Car ran like **** before...but worse afterwards [cam was a rather big one for my taste]. Had to do a leak down test Turns out and wouldn't ya know it...4 burnt valves. So...him fighting me for 2 hours labor...cost him 6 [plus machine shop costs] in the end. Since I do my own work...the only person I can blame a come back on is me lol

 

I'm glad to have exposed you to the $1,400 heads. I have just one more thing to add. You better re-read that ad. Anyone that would spend $10,000 for 2 AFR mongoose heads is a certified wacko. Theyre all over the internet for $2,800-$3,000 a PAIR. IDK where, or who, is asking 5 grand per head. WOW!!!

 

Can't recall the site as I just googled and clicked the first link lol But yeah, seems a lot of folks asking wild asking prices these days. I contacted that fella in the FS section so thanks for the lead my friend

Joe

 

Straight from AFR. Quite a ways from $10k

https://www.airflowresearch.com/205c...cylinder-head/