Clutch balancing finally figured out.....
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (see5)
Think about the clutch assembly like a wheel and tire combo. Once the combo is balanced, you can't rotate the pressure plate(tire) on the flywheel(rim) or else the balance will be incorrect. The balancing pin is like transferring the weight from your old balanced assembly(wheel and tire) to your new wheels/tire. You know you dont do that, you take all the weights off of the wheels and start with no weights. You dont transfer any weight.
Phillip
Neutral or 0 balance means that no side is heavy, if you transfer the pin that side will be heavier.
Phillip
Neutral or 0 balance means that no side is heavy, if you transfer the pin that side will be heavier.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 1
From: Knoxville TN
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Phil97SVT)
Thanks for the info Phil! I will be getting a new clutch in a couple of weeks and you have given me a lot more piece of mind knowing what I have to do to make it right. :cheers:
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (SNW Vette)
Phil,
Did you do your flywheel balance trade with the factory damper in the stock postion?
Steve
Did you do your flywheel balance trade with the factory damper in the stock postion?
Steve
Phillip
Pro
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere in the Mid West
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Phil97SVT)
Phil,
Thanks for passing such great info.. You helped most of us out tremendously... I do one question though. Would you have any concerns or objections using a lighter flywheel (say Fidenza) over stock?
Thanks for passing such great info.. You helped most of us out tremendously... I do one question though. Would you have any concerns or objections using a lighter flywheel (say Fidenza) over stock?
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 934
Likes: 0
From: Vegas
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Phil97SVT)
Phil, I've just got the same clutch/pressure plate combo and have some questions. How do you like the clutch effort? I see you used the stock flywheel, any problems with that? Which Master?
Thanks for the info :cheers:
Thanks for the info :cheers:
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (benelliwang)
I am currently running the ram 402/6130 combo with a Mcleod Master Cylinder. The combo is stiller than factory but nothing too bad. It is very driveable on the street not much chatter with the 4.10s. I would buy this clutch again or choose the full face disk. BTW the flywheel after 2k miles looked fine, no signs of exccessive wear.
Phillip
Phillip
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Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (hrdtopv8)
Phil,
Thanks for passing such great info.. You helped most of us out tremendously... I do one question though. Would you have any concerns or objections using a lighter flywheel (say Fidenza) over stock?
Thanks for passing such great info.. You helped most of us out tremendously... I do one question though. Would you have any concerns or objections using a lighter flywheel (say Fidenza) over stock?
Phillip
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 51
From: New Milford CT
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Phil97SVT)
I almost hate to post this but here goes.
Corvette Service Manual GMP/01-Y-2 states in section 6-438 and 6-441:
Original flywheel is to be scribed to the crank hub, and any balance weights are to be TRANSFERED to the NEW flywheel In the same positions.
Crankshaft Balancer (what we call the front pulley) is to be scribed to the front crankshaft nose and any balance weights on it are to be TRANSFERED to the NEW pulley.
I am only stating this for information. Beleive me, I am very happy for those who do not do this weight transfer and their Zero balanced flywheel/clutch assemblies run smooth.
I was so nervous about my own new clutch I could hardly take it.
If I was going to do my own clutch install, I would Zero balance everything, but I would also scribe the original parts and weights locations. Then if there was a problem vibration, I could at least then go back and add the original stock weights back on to try to cure the problem.
By the way, my own clutch and pulley had no weights, so I lucked out.
Corvette Service Manual GMP/01-Y-2 states in section 6-438 and 6-441:
Original flywheel is to be scribed to the crank hub, and any balance weights are to be TRANSFERED to the NEW flywheel In the same positions.
Crankshaft Balancer (what we call the front pulley) is to be scribed to the front crankshaft nose and any balance weights on it are to be TRANSFERED to the NEW pulley.
I am only stating this for information. Beleive me, I am very happy for those who do not do this weight transfer and their Zero balanced flywheel/clutch assemblies run smooth.
I was so nervous about my own new clutch I could hardly take it.
If I was going to do my own clutch install, I would Zero balance everything, but I would also scribe the original parts and weights locations. Then if there was a problem vibration, I could at least then go back and add the original stock weights back on to try to cure the problem.
By the way, my own clutch and pulley had no weights, so I lucked out.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 51
From: New Milford CT
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Blocktrdr)
Blocktrdr, That is great news that the (transfer the weights) service manual info is rescinded. Could you post a copy of that TSB so we can put this issue to bed once and for all? And does it cover the pulley also?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,635
Likes: 2
From: Aloha, Oregon
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Blocktrdr)
i havent read the entire thread but want to comment on the 0 balancing of clutches going on internally balanced (other than stock LSx) motors. I would recommend having each clutch piece 0 balanced by itself rather than together as a unit. This solves a couple problems. 1) allows you to install the parts together in any relation. 2) allows you to replace any one item (after it itself is 0 balanced) without having to balance the other pieces.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 802
Likes: 0
From: Boca Raton, FL
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (CJS)
Blocktrdr, That is great news that the (transfer the weights) service manual info is rescinded. Could you post a copy of that TSB so we can put this issue to bed once and for all? And does it cover the pulley also?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,372
Likes: 51
From: New Milford CT
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Blocktrdr)
This is a link to the thread about the online info to "not transfer the weights". Thanks to members Chuckster and Steve Row, who discovered it. Apparently only GM dealers have access to the actual "online" document right now.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=480581Now
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=480581Now
Racer
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 442
Likes: 2
From: San Clemente CA
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Phil97SVT)
"Phil, Did you do your flywheel balance trade with the factory damper in the stock postion?"
"Steve, Say that again. I am running a ASP pulley/dampner. Do you understand what 0 balanced is? Phillip"
Phillip,
You now have a zero balanced damper & flywheel which cannot be generalized to all changes of just a flywheel or just a damper. The stock flywheel & damper on a Vette are a matched set because they are balanced at the factory after the engine is assembled by the addition of the small press-in weights.
If your stock damper had balance weights from the factory, when you changed to the ASP damper your stock engine was then out of balance with the stock flywheel. This is because you would only have the rear half of the factory balance correction. ASP dampers are zero balanced but stock Vette dampers will not be if they have balance weights.
A zero balance damper and flywheel/clutch is certainly a good balance setup and it is the way engines have been modified in the past but it may not be as good as the factory balance on a Vette. If you re-balanced the engine internals, you would need to remove the weights from both the damper and flywheel or better yet have them zero balanced.
Good luck,
Steve
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (SNW Vette)
I thought that that's what I said before. The engine is balanced externally by the damper and the flywheel. Hence the need for weights and the position of these components in relation to the crank.
So, it follows that if you change the flywheel, then you also need to swap over the weights in order to have the balance correct.
But what about the TSB on not swapping over weights?
I don't doubt it exists, but we need a number so that we can read it and find out what it says.
The plot thickens.........
I too, would like to have a 0 balance clutch/flywheel setup, but if the engine isn't at 0 balance, it won't do me any good.
So, it follows that if you change the flywheel, then you also need to swap over the weights in order to have the balance correct.
But what about the TSB on not swapping over weights?
I don't doubt it exists, but we need a number so that we can read it and find out what it says.
The plot thickens.........
I too, would like to have a 0 balance clutch/flywheel setup, but if the engine isn't at 0 balance, it won't do me any good.
Thread Starter
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 5,577
Likes: 3
From: Southern Maryland Maryland
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (DucaT)
Where are you guys getting your information? I called SLP who makes the clutches for GM as well as 5 of the top LS1 builders in the country and they all say that the clutch needs to be 0 balanced. SLP said that their clutches come from them 0 balanced and combo can be installed in any position.
Phillip
Phillip
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 211
Likes: 0
Re: Clutch balancing finally figured out..... (Phil97SVT)
Factory service manual, which says that both position and weights of flywheel need to be maintained when servicing.
I can give the page and section if needed.
I can give the page and section if needed.