Did you guys ever see this happen to your car?



Click to enlarge.
http://benelliwang.badassride.com/temp/problem1.jpg
http://benelliwang.badassride.com/temp/problem2.jpg

The heads are Morgan Motorsports Stage II heads, Morgan 224 cam, REV Dual springs, 7.350" Thunder Racing Heat Treated Chrome-Moly Pushrods, and stock lifters. The heads bolts and gaskets are GM parts about 3 months old. The heads were installed 3 months ago, they are used but checked/cleaned by Morgan. Right now Cylinder 7 is dead. I am currently looking for a shop to do compression and leak down test…

If I remember correctly at the install 3 months ago, the exhaust valves were shorter then intake valves. And they were shimmed considerably. I will double-check the valve height once the heads are off.

Also, this post is not to flame any vendor for poor products. Nothing is proven at this point. So don’t jump in and start flaming. I know the risk of modifying my car and poopie happens sometimes. I just want to know what I should be looking for and how to fix it.

Things I have done:
1. Swapped injectors.
2. Swapped ignition wires.
3. Autotap showing cylinder #7 missing badly. P0300 (misfire) and P0171 (bank1 lean) codes.
4. Oil change showed thick oil and dark brown color like black coffee. I was expecting runny oil with mocha color.

Things I am doing soon:
1. Compression test.
2. Cry
3. Leak down test.
4. Cry
5. Pull heads to check gaskets, valves, and pistions.
6. Cry

So far I am guessing valve problems. I am hoping its not pistons kissing the valves...




[Modified by benelliwang, 2:47 PM 4/2/2003]

 

The only thing I can think of that'd cause the rocker arms to hit the retainers is if the valve stems are too long, making the rocker arm have a sharper angle when the valve is closed. From the pics it looks like all your intake valve spring retainers are damaged, but the exhaust valve spring retainers are fine, so maybe the exhaust valves are the right size, and the intakes are too long?

If that's the case, then you should be able to see the rocker arm touching the retainer on the intake valves when the heads are off, since the valve will be fully closed.

Good luck.
:cheers:

 

That had to be excessively noisy from day one, and that constant battering has probably worn out the guides, valve seals. I'm far from being an expert, but in my limited experience, I've never seen different length valves used on the same engine....

 

Wil...sorry to hear about the bad luck, hope it turns out for ya :) :cheers:

 

Strangely, they are quieter then the A&A stage 1 heads....

I am really in pinch now. The local shop can't take my car in for 3 weeks because it is too busy. And I just sold my other car :cry

 

If I were in your position, I'd be pulling the heads and checking for any other damage. If there is no piston to valve damage, you may only need to have the heads rebuilt with new guides, seals, valves and retainers. There must be an automotive machine shop in the area that can do this kind of work.

 

[/QUOTE]If I remember correctly, the exhaust valves were shorter then intake valves. And they were shimmed considerably. [/QUOTE]

From the pics it looks like all the exhaust valves were too long.
How many rocker arm shims did you use ??

 

a longer pushrod and shim up the rocker arm should help.

 

What would be the cause of this? I am looking for new heads and would like to avoid the crying part. :D
Hope everything works out for ya. Can see your not trying to flame anyone but if its defective, front em. :cheers:


[Modified by Dugmole, 7:29 PM 4/2/2003]

 

Different length valves?? Why would anyone ever do that? The installer also should have checked your valvetrain geometry, that's very basic. After I torqued down my rocker arms, I turned the engine over a few times.

Any reason why you pulled the valve covers? Was the car running poorly? I don't think the P0300 code has to do necessarily with your rockers contacting the retainers. Otherwise, why wouldn't the rest of the cylinders have the same problem? It could be something like bad plug wire or coil pack or something like that. But definately get your valvetrain geometry fixed. Don't worry though, poor valvetrain geometry shouldn't destroy your bottom end. At least, I pray not. Good luck!!



[Modified by akw408, 8:09 PM 4/2/2003]

 

sounds like you needed:

 

Where do you get those rockers? I wish I had them now...

For the record, I want to say that the REV setup from Andy worked perfectly with A&A Stage I heads. The cause may be the fact that I used 7.350" push rods this time instead of 7.400" stock ones. But I was so worry about bent pushrods and so many people told me I must use the 7.350" rods, I threw them on...




[Modified by benelliwang, 7:20 PM 4/2/2003]

 

I hope you are not referring to MMS.
As far as I know, we never sold the heads nor intsalled the heads on this person's car. As far as I know this person has never even contacted us with regards to this pair of cylinder heads.

FWIW, I've never seen this happen before with springs that fit in the stock spring pockets unless the geometry was out of whack.

 

Mike, my heads are bought used from Andreas Gerasimou, who bought them from MMS. I did call Derek and Al several times to make sure these are the heads form MMS and you guys knew Andreas. I have also called you guys a few times after I bought them to make sure I have the correct pushrod lengths.

So, they are MMS stage II heads. Also, the heads are installed locally. But it is true that I never bought the heads from MMS directly and MMS did not install my heads. I do not want a flame/blame war, I just want some help on what is the next step to fix it and what are the things I can do to prevent it form happening again.

IMHO, crap happens and I just want to fix it and go on. If you have some tips and pointers, please let me know. Thank you.

Again, I am not blaming the part or MMS. And I do not want refunds/law suits/freebies...

:cheers:


[Modified by benelliwang, 8:13 PM 4/2/2003]

 

:eek: :cry

Yeah, I would probably pull the heads and check everything I could. It does sound like the valve train geometry is out of whack - like I would know how to put it in to "whack" :jester

:cheers:

 

The rockers I pictured are hand clearenced with a dremel tool. They picture came from jmX's site, ls1howto.com.

He has one other picture of this.

Eric

 

:iagree:
What do your plugs look like, if your getting a misfire code maybe one of your plugs is fouled, which will also need to be fixed. either way good luck and I hope it works out for yah :cheers:

 

it looks like a geometry problem (pushrod length/shims) or the relief cut was required for the spring diam.(the stock spring is beehive shaped) The installer should have verified clearance. I had the same problem on a modified zz3 crate motor-but i checked rocker to valve spring retainer clearance before i got to far into the installation. i had to replace the retainers with a different style.
your headed in the right direction with your engine checkout. the heads will require a thourough checkout also.
sh#t happens, keep the good additude :yesnod:

 

Bingo. Engine builder error. There's NO across-the-board "You gotta use this part" that works for every combination. "Throwing" parts on without checking anything is looking for trouble (as I guess you see now).

BTW Titanium dust is pretty abrasive. You may want to get as much out of the engine as possible.

 

you are taking away strength from the rocker arm when you grind that clearance. the bee hive spring is use to reduce the weight of the retainer. get the correct length PR and shim for the correct preload on the lifter and you will be fine. :chevy