Many of y'all are familiar with my cam thread on Ls1tech. One of the things we have been discussing is how folks are getting hung up on the wrong spec (LSA) when it comes to cams. I found some folks who feel the same way. In fact a whole bunch of folks down here feel that way. I think the shop I visited has about 350 cars running cams that most of y'all would look at and say was impossible for someone to use in their car.

Here is a link to the original thread.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...0&page=1&pp=40


I have also copied my thread about some of the stuff I have found over here in Australia.


I thought I would bring this post back too the top with regards to a few of the things I have seen down here in Australia.

I visted one of the shops here in Sydney with Peter (PlanB), and they showed me some of the things they are up to down here. In talking with the folks, quite honestly they laugh at our cam specs. "Big" in the states is a baby cam here.

They can't belive the ridiculous ammount of LSA we have on our cams. When you look at some of the cams they are running down here, and the LSA and ICL, if you belive what you read in 99% of the cam threads you tell yourself "there is no way this cam can run". I'm here to tell you that not only do they run, they work fine. In fact they work better than many of the cams I have seen in the states. They make more power, and they drive better.

I personally drove a Holden with an automatic the cam specs were 232/232 108LSA and I don't know the ICL, yes, pick your jaw up off the floor it was an automatic car. It idles at 875-900 RPM, and they haven't finalaized the tune. It didn't buck or kick, and by comparison it sounded about like a T1 cam or say a 224 on a 112 on this car with a full exhaust. The car has abundant torque, and pulled like a freight train for a 3600-3800 lbs car, and had ZERO drivability issues. The dyno here in Australia are more conservative than a dynojet. Typical loss is 22% or so. On a dynojet in the states, one of these car would most likely make around 470-500 RWHP / 450 lb ft of Tq (with ported LS1 heads). They back up the wheel dynos with engine dynos also. In fact most of the H/C packages are dyno'd on the engine dyno, and the tune perfected, and then the whole assmebly is installed and any "final adjustments are done.

If you want a cam with some "chop" here you end up with a 242/242 106 LSA 103ICL or bigger.

The "big" cam they showed me was a 273/273 106LSA, (and yes, all these specs are @ .050). The 232 would probably fit without fly-cutting, but it would be too close for safety sake, and flycutting is best to give you some breathing room.

They run cams all the way down to 100 or so LSA 95ICL depending on the applications. When we started talking about proper valve events, these guys are all over that. They completely get it from what I have seen.

I looked over some of the speed density coversions, and that looks really cool. They showed me about 100-200 MAF sensors laying on a shelf, as every car that comes throught the shop gets converted over to speed density.

I am going to go watch a dyno this week of a big cam car with the 8 individual throttle bodys setup. According to Peter and the locals, you hit the key and it fires up, and idles just like a motorcycle (brrrrrrrrrrrr).

I posted this because so many folks have gotten hung up on the notion that you must have a 114LSA to get a good idle,and to drive it with an automatic. I am here to tell you that this is complete and utter nonsense. I witnessed it with my own eyes, I have driven a car with a setup like this, and quite honestly it works.

All I can say is you need to start listening to Ed at Flowtech, and some of these Australian guys.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Forget LSA think proper valve events. LSA is a byproduct of a properly selected valve events. You don't design a cam around LSA. LSA is what comes out in the end after you get all the "important stuff" figured out.

Stay tuned for some really "big" cams making really big HP in the not so distant future in the states...

 

WOW :eek: These are some huge cams, especially 95 degree intake centerline :eek: :eek:

 

:iagree:

A couple years ago quite a many "Gurus", and a well respected Forum vendor, told me the Grand Am cam (239*/251*, 106 LSA) wouldn't " make good power". Seems that most everyone felt the LS1/6 was somehow "different" than other chevy smallblocks (In spite of the Fact that GM/LPE designed the cam for their engine!! ).
They- the Gurus and vendor- were wrong.

Fuel injection and Engine Management systems are a wonderful thing! :D

There are a Lot of very knowledgeable, helpful people Down Under......They really know their tuning and the LS1 PCM. :yesnod: :yesnod: :yesnod:


[Modified by binksZ06, 10:47 AM 2/29/2004]

 

I sent the following head flow data to a place in AZ that
was supposed to have developed a huge database of cam profiles
based on head flow.

Lift Int Ex
.050 35 29
.100 65 59
.150 96 86
.200 130 115
.250 161 132
.300 195 158
.400 249 208
.500 289 225
.600 316 230
.650 326 232

I would imagine most (if not all) of their work has been done on SBC and BBC. Anyway, this is what they came back with as the cam that would make the most power.

292/292 (Total duration which would be ~ 257/257 @ .050)
.800/.7416
LSA of 106 with an ICL of 102

I think they also provided the valve events, but I don't have them right now.

They also recommended for a nitrous cam:

292/317 (total duration which would be ~ 257/282 @ .050)
.600/.7416
LSA of 111 with ICL of 102


Now, this is for 383 cubic inches, and I don't know what they would have recommneded had these heads been on a stock cube motor.

The NA cam is not that much bigger than what I am currently running although I don't have nearly that much lift. I am definitely thinking of going really big like this on my next setup to see what I can get out of it.

binks - you know there's no power in that Grand Am cam, and it will surely
never idle. :jester

J-Rod - you still out of town? Maybe I'll bring my car down to H'town, and
you can help me install one these really big bump sticks (I am tired of doing
it in my garage). :jester Give me a call or email when you get back.

 

I would be very interested in seeing what cam the guys down under would spec out for a 427 all out street/strip type application. I would really like to experiment with one of these larger cams and speed density. Do you have a way I can get in contact with any of these tuners? Appreciate the help.

 

Here is a link for the Australian forum. Great guys. http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/index.ph...9539a624f68e97 :thumbs:

 

There are several 422s down here. Plan B's car is going to be a blown 422 that should be around 1000HP. There are a few others, and I think one that I discussed with them made about 680 crank HP.

 

GREAT POST AND INFO J-ROD!!!! When my MTI warranty is up in one year it will be time for me to pick up the cam in my 427 motor as my once aggressive 244/244 , .612 lift on a 112lsa is being used in 346 cars!!! :crazy: :eek:

 

Another Ed sales pitch...:rolleyes: I think you meant "up yunder" not down under. Ed uses COMP CAMS lobes like everyone else. I think the bottom line is the LS1 and LS6 will work will almost any grind that you throw at it. Thats because GM did such a great design on the block, intake, head ports/design, etc. Without this, it just wouldn't be possible.




[Modified by 427CPE, 3:41 PM 2/29/2004]

 

 

:nono: you tell him J.

 

:iagree: :thumbs: :cheers:

 

You never know if you are going to be here in a year :lol: maybe you should go for it anyway--I've only got 500 miles on the new motor and I am now wondering how big a cam I can use without flycutting until I have to go back into the motor for some other reason--8 TB's :eek: and bank to bank tuning--are they doing the speed density with the oem pcm or using an aftermarket like the FAST system etc. Lets see the new 90mms are going for 650 to 700 plus exchange so you would have about 5600 in TB's and need 8 for exchange-- :lol: I assume the TB's are small and designed for each hole--


[Modified by NEPTUNEBILL, 9:14 PM 2/29/2004]

 

Your post contained refreshing information from the Aussie's with respect to design methodology and that was interesting to read. However, I have personally used one of Ed's solid grinds with a set of AFR205 heads and my opinions are based on real time usage. So, you post what you know and I'll do the same. That combo fell way short of what it should have. I could not figure out which one was the problem, so I got rid of both. That solved the problem. In retrospect, I think the heads were the problem as the cam profile was almost right out of the comp cam catalog.

What the Aussie's are doing is very cool and I look forward to reading results from new cam experiments. Do "Holden" LSX cars have the same pcm's we have? Would be interesting to know how they get around closed loop problems from fuel in the exhaust.

Hey, kudos to anyone that does research to add hp to my car.

100/100@0.050???

:cheers:

 

Here are a couple pics of the TBs

^^^Isn't that a BEAUTIFUL sight!!! Absolutely breathtaking!!! :yesnod: :yesnod:

427CPE - They are using C4B tunes/Calibrations from the Holden GTS. These are MAFLESS Calibrations from GM. They run with O2 sensors and tune the VE table using LTFTs to zero in on the correct VE value at each load site. Very time consuming.


[Modified by binksZ06, 10:47 PM 2/29/2004]

 

What a beauty I guess air filtration is not an object--that intake setup must be fairly expensive--I use to have to balance a bank of webbers on a car I built and a bit of a pain and would have to change jets with significant altitude changes--can be a pain but the power was great--great post I just spent about an hour and a half reading the thread that J put in the post, very good reading--now I also want the aussie's to spec me a cam--

 

i would be interested to learn more about getting the tune right for such a cam profile, conversion to SD only, etc. I am contemplating something north of 250 duration, .625 lift on 108lsa for the solid roller 436 Shirl Dickey is building for my high compression nitrous application.

Robert
Gen 3 MS

 

The setup from my understanding is about $3000 US. It is about to go into mass production. MY understanding is they have a sealed box for filtration, etc... for the holden. Folks don't just run them around open.

 

I wonder the same thing, seems wild lsa's like that would create an issue..? would also have a hard time with emissions I'd expect.

 

I know that some of the I/M parameters of various tests of sensors can be 'loosened' a bit with Edit, allowing certain conditions to exist with throwing codes. I'm interested in finding out how to convert to SD, do away with the MAF without troubling any codes, or causing any emissions testing failures (OBDII interface check).

Robert