Anti-Sway-Bar question
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Buedingen Germany
Anti-Sway-Bar question
Hi, I have a question concerning the use of anti-sway-bars.
I've learned that increasing the diameter of your front swaybar results in less traction, which means more understeer. Same in the rear...more oversteer.
So my question:
What is then the point in adding bigger bars to the front and the rear? Would that not result in an overall loss of traction?
Thx
greets from germany
excuse my english
Toby
I've learned that increasing the diameter of your front swaybar results in less traction, which means more understeer. Same in the rear...more oversteer.
So my question:
What is then the point in adding bigger bars to the front and the rear? Would that not result in an overall loss of traction?
Thx
greets from germany
excuse my english
Toby
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 23,283
Likes: 906
From: Lake Elsinore, CA
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (City_Cobra)
What you're describing is the opposite of what Anti- sway bars do (up to a point) - they reduce sway or body roll which allows the tires to stay better planted, and so, improve traction.
Pro
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 732
Likes: 138
From: Allen (DFW) Texas
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (City_Cobra)
Le Mans Master
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,362
Likes: 30
From: Oak Harbor WA
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (rhneff)
The more a the chassis rolls over in a corner the worse the car will handle. A sway-bar helps cut down on the amount of induced sway. Too much front bar and you plow like mad, too much rear bar and the **** wants to come around. Under and over steer as you already know.
Other factors also affect sway. Tire compound, tire pressure, tire deflection (sidewall flex), spring rates, contact patch, toe-in, toe-out and camber.
Other factors also affect sway. Tire compound, tire pressure, tire deflection (sidewall flex), spring rates, contact patch, toe-in, toe-out and camber.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 920
Likes: 2
From: Rogers, AR, USA
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (City_Cobra)
I think what you are missing is the need for balance between the front bar and rear bar. If you start off with stock bars and then add a heavy front bar without changing the rear bar, you will end up with the condition you describe. The same is true if you only put a heavy bar in the rear without changing the front bar, you'll get the opposite condition. The key to success is to proportionately increase the front and rear bars to decrease the roll of the body without adversley affecting the handling.
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,538
Likes: 290
From: Central MO
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (Patches)
What you're describing is the opposite of what Anti- sway bars do (up to a point) - they reduce sway or body roll which allows the tires to stay better planted, and so, improve traction.
You are keeping a larger contact patch and improving lateral stability in the turns. If you keep the fronts better planted understeer improves and oversteer is more evident and vice versa.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,483
Likes: 1
From: Wilmington DE
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (City_Cobra)
So my question:
What is then the point in adding bigger bars to the front and the rear? Would that not result in an overall loss of traction?
Toby
What is then the point in adding bigger bars to the front and the rear? Would that not result in an overall loss of traction?
Toby
The point of adding bigger (and stiffer) bars to the front AND the rear is to reduce body roll by increasing the roll stiffness of BOTH the front and the rear suspensions in a balanced way. This balanced reduced body roll results in the left side and the right side tires gripping better than they would without the increased roll stiffness.
If you get too much roll stiffness in either the front or the rear, then the car will be unbalanced and either understeer or oversteer will occur. It may seem strange, but too much roll stiffness in the front relative to the rear will promote understeer (or pushing or plowing or tight feel). This is because the rear of the car wants to roll and the front doesen't. So as the rear rolls, through the chassis stiffness, weight is actually removed from the inside front tire causing a very high percentage of the cornering force to be handled by the outside front tire, and if the speed is high enough, that one tire just can not povide all the grip necessary to turn the car, so the car wants to continue in a straight line (or understeer). The same fundemental thing hapens if you get the rear's roll stiffness to great relative to the front, except that now your car will oversteer. It all has to do with getting the tires to work together from left to right and from front to rear. I hope this answers your questions.
Jim Helm
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Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
From: Buedingen Germany
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (Jim 47)
Thanks for all those answers!! I think I understood now!
One question left: Are all popular bars (z51,z06,hotchkis,t1,addco etc.) balanced?
Probably not because all the front bars are larger than the rear. But is there a big difference in the ratio between the differend bars? And if so, how to choose the right one? The bigger the better? I read once that the t1 are too much for the street. Why too much? Is there a point where too much rollstiffness is bad?
Thx!!
One question left: Are all popular bars (z51,z06,hotchkis,t1,addco etc.) balanced?
Probably not because all the front bars are larger than the rear. But is there a big difference in the ratio between the differend bars? And if so, how to choose the right one? The bigger the better? I read once that the t1 are too much for the street. Why too much? Is there a point where too much rollstiffness is bad?
Thx!!
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,483
Likes: 1
From: Wilmington DE
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (City_Cobra)
All of the bars you have mentioned have larger diameter front bars in the MATCHED set of bars. If you get Z51, Z06, or T1 bars you are getting a matched and balanced set.
Don't foreget, the anti-sway bars are just one element of the suspension that provides roll resistance. The other elements are the springs and the shocks. So, the factory suspension is designed and engineered so that all these elements work together to provide the ride and handling charastics that the car has.
The C5 Corvette has a well engineered and balanced suspension weather it's the base, Z51, or Z06. The base has a small amount of understeer designed into it for safety reasons, while the Z51 and Z06 suspensions are more neutral, but still tend toward understeer.
If you plan to use your car mainly on the street, then the Z06 suspension )2004 Shocks, springs and anti-sway bars) is an excellent choice. I have a 2004 Z06 and it's great for both the track and the street. If you want a car mainly for the track then the T1 suspension would be better, but for regular street driving it will be very stiff and rough riding. I hope his helps. :thumbs:
Jim Helm
Don't foreget, the anti-sway bars are just one element of the suspension that provides roll resistance. The other elements are the springs and the shocks. So, the factory suspension is designed and engineered so that all these elements work together to provide the ride and handling charastics that the car has.
The C5 Corvette has a well engineered and balanced suspension weather it's the base, Z51, or Z06. The base has a small amount of understeer designed into it for safety reasons, while the Z51 and Z06 suspensions are more neutral, but still tend toward understeer.
If you plan to use your car mainly on the street, then the Z06 suspension )2004 Shocks, springs and anti-sway bars) is an excellent choice. I have a 2004 Z06 and it's great for both the track and the street. If you want a car mainly for the track then the T1 suspension would be better, but for regular street driving it will be very stiff and rough riding. I hope his helps. :thumbs:
Jim Helm
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Aurora Colorado
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (City_Cobra)
Every C5 driver I know that races autocross, time trials or road race add negative camber front and rear as well as lower their cars. Oh, did I mention
they run hoosiers or other slicks. Just adding stiffer sway bars alone will do little in making your car handle better. In a street application it's a waste of money to just add larger sway bars. Now you will see a difference by adding
rebound adjustable shocks, add negative camber and sticky tires. ( which by the way the GYRF's are NOT ) Read " How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn :thumbs:
they run hoosiers or other slicks. Just adding stiffer sway bars alone will do little in making your car handle better. In a street application it's a waste of money to just add larger sway bars. Now you will see a difference by adding
rebound adjustable shocks, add negative camber and sticky tires. ( which by the way the GYRF's are NOT ) Read " How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn :thumbs:
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,088
Likes: 1
From: NC
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (James G)
Every C5 driver I know that races autocross, time trials or road race add negative camber front and rear as well as lower their cars. Oh, did I mention
they run hoosiers or other slicks. Just adding stiffer sway bars alone will do little in making your car handle better. In a street application it's a waste of money to just add larger sway bars. Now you will see a difference by adding
rebound adjustable shocks, add negative camber and sticky tires. ( which by the way the GYRF's are NOT ) Read " How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn :thumbs:
they run hoosiers or other slicks. Just adding stiffer sway bars alone will do little in making your car handle better. In a street application it's a waste of money to just add larger sway bars. Now you will see a difference by adding
rebound adjustable shocks, add negative camber and sticky tires. ( which by the way the GYRF's are NOT ) Read " How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn :thumbs:
this is a great thread. :cheers:
It's informative and offers a lesson without judgement.
Anyway, back to the point. I just received my Z06 bars last week and when
I was changing my exhaust on Sunday, I thought I'd at least get to put the rear bar on...I was just too tired to get around to do the front.
What was said previously was very evident yesterday as I drove around.
As I took some curves and turns which I'm very familiar with, I found
that the rear end tended to want to come around and I could feel the tires
start to skip around the curves a bit. The weather was warm and the tires were also.
They're the EMT's and are 3+ years old. Some skidding could be due to
the tires themselves but I felt the rear bar made a change.
I can't wait to get the front bar on to feel if the effect balances out.
I'll also change to either the Z06 shocks or Bilsteins to see their effect.
And as soon as I feel comfortable with spending more $$$, I'll get me some
of them there sticky tires. :D
Instructor
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
From: Aurora Colorado
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (georgec114)
I really didn't mean to rain on your parade. I forgot, lots of people have more space to actually use their suspension. I live in the city where it's easy to get busted pulling lat. G's I have to go to the mountains or the track to play much.
You should try some autocross if you havn't already. You just show up with a helmet, $25-$30 and drive like your hair is on fire
You could try 1.5 - 2.0 d of negative camber F & R. Thats when the stiffer sway bars will show a difference. Oh, we run 39 - 42 PSI front and 36-41 rear
doing auto-x. This is so you dont roll over on the sidewalls which will happen with stock camber.
Have fun :steering:
You should try some autocross if you havn't already. You just show up with a helmet, $25-$30 and drive like your hair is on fire
You could try 1.5 - 2.0 d of negative camber F & R. Thats when the stiffer sway bars will show a difference. Oh, we run 39 - 42 PSI front and 36-41 rear
doing auto-x. This is so you dont roll over on the sidewalls which will happen with stock camber.
Have fun :steering:
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,988
Likes: 16
From: Hooterville, NJ
Re: Anti-Sway-Bar question (georgec114)
Every C5 driver I know that races autocross, time trials or road race add negative camber front and rear as well as lower their cars. Oh, did I mention
they run hoosiers or other slicks. Just adding stiffer sway bars alone will do little in making your car handle better. In a street application it's a waste of money to just add larger sway bars. Now you will see a difference by adding
rebound adjustable shocks, add negative camber and sticky tires. ( which by the way the GYRF's are NOT ) Read " How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn :thumbs:
OK...Now that I just "wasted" my $219 for the Z06 sway bars, I gotta' say
this is a great thread. :cheers:
It's informative and offers a lesson without judgement.
Anyway, back to the point. I just received my Z06 bars last week and when
I was changing my exhaust on Sunday, I thought I'd at least get to put the rear bar on...I was just too tired to get around to do the front.
What was said previously was very evident yesterday as I drove around.
As I took some curves and turns which I'm very familiar with, I found
that the rear end tended to want to come around and I could feel the tires
start to skip around the curves a bit. The weather was warm and the tires were also.
They're the EMT's and are 3+ years old. Some skidding could be due to
the tires themselves but I felt the rear bar made a change.
I can't wait to get the front bar on to feel if the effect balances out.
I'll also change to either the Z06 shocks or Bilsteins to see their effect.
And as soon as I feel comfortable with spending more $$$, I'll get me some
of them there sticky tires. :D
they run hoosiers or other slicks. Just adding stiffer sway bars alone will do little in making your car handle better. In a street application it's a waste of money to just add larger sway bars. Now you will see a difference by adding
rebound adjustable shocks, add negative camber and sticky tires. ( which by the way the GYRF's are NOT ) Read " How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn :thumbs:
OK...Now that I just "wasted" my $219 for the Z06 sway bars, I gotta' say
this is a great thread. :cheers:
It's informative and offers a lesson without judgement.
Anyway, back to the point. I just received my Z06 bars last week and when
I was changing my exhaust on Sunday, I thought I'd at least get to put the rear bar on...I was just too tired to get around to do the front.
What was said previously was very evident yesterday as I drove around.
As I took some curves and turns which I'm very familiar with, I found
that the rear end tended to want to come around and I could feel the tires
start to skip around the curves a bit. The weather was warm and the tires were also.
They're the EMT's and are 3+ years old. Some skidding could be due to
the tires themselves but I felt the rear bar made a change.
I can't wait to get the front bar on to feel if the effect balances out.
I'll also change to either the Z06 shocks or Bilsteins to see their effect.
And as soon as I feel comfortable with spending more $$$, I'll get me some
of them there sticky tires. :D
