Breathless Performance Dyno Proof! 1/7/2005
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale Fl
Sorry about taking so long to answer but had to take my son kart racing this weekend. By the way he did finish 1st in his heat race. 
I had explained that he would get around 17 to 22 gain and that I did think the 29 plus was high. I did notice that with his original stock run that the timing was being reduced by knock drastically. This could be a clogged filter or the computers original program mapping of the timing table for a certain temps. Either way the customer did let us know that he did not like the way the car ran before. We try to run a consistent test at a consistent temp. We actually did 7 runs on the stock system to get a good average. First run was the best then all went down hill from there. After the Vortex ram induction system was installed we ran it again 5 times at the same temps as before. Dyno was done within an hour of the stock run. With the tech 2 connected we noticed no knock retard and a smooth consistent pull on the dyno graph. even after 5 runs back to back all the runs were still within 2 HP of each other. There was nothing done to change the dyno, actually if you look at the graph when we started the test they were very close and starting spreading out in the higher RPMs.
Seat of the pants pull is also a big power prover and he did say he felt a good power increase. The Vortex system has been proven over and over again at both the track and dyno. Actually we are the only company that goes to all the Corvette Events including race events and guarantees quicker runs at the track.
1. Yes they were SAE corrected #s Actually SAE was .988
2. Water Temp was kept between 200 to 203 for all the tests
3. Tests were done within a hour
4. Tech 2 was connected at all times
5. No we did not even go near the dyno computer after the stock runs.
6. All this was done in front of the customer
7. We did not check the condition of the stock filter but the customer has it and can check it.
8. It does not matter if the dyno was reading high or low it is the change in power that is important. The graph before was showing erratic power due most likely to the knock retard.
9. We did run 12 runs on the dyno but only charged him for 3
10. He’s very happy with the system and does feel the power increase.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
I had explained that he would get around 17 to 22 gain and that I did think the 29 plus was high. I did notice that with his original stock run that the timing was being reduced by knock drastically. This could be a clogged filter or the computers original program mapping of the timing table for a certain temps. Either way the customer did let us know that he did not like the way the car ran before. We try to run a consistent test at a consistent temp. We actually did 7 runs on the stock system to get a good average. First run was the best then all went down hill from there. After the Vortex ram induction system was installed we ran it again 5 times at the same temps as before. Dyno was done within an hour of the stock run. With the tech 2 connected we noticed no knock retard and a smooth consistent pull on the dyno graph. even after 5 runs back to back all the runs were still within 2 HP of each other. There was nothing done to change the dyno, actually if you look at the graph when we started the test they were very close and starting spreading out in the higher RPMs.
Seat of the pants pull is also a big power prover and he did say he felt a good power increase. The Vortex system has been proven over and over again at both the track and dyno. Actually we are the only company that goes to all the Corvette Events including race events and guarantees quicker runs at the track.
1. Yes they were SAE corrected #s Actually SAE was .988
2. Water Temp was kept between 200 to 203 for all the tests
3. Tests were done within a hour
4. Tech 2 was connected at all times
5. No we did not even go near the dyno computer after the stock runs.
6. All this was done in front of the customer
7. We did not check the condition of the stock filter but the customer has it and can check it.
8. It does not matter if the dyno was reading high or low it is the change in power that is important. The graph before was showing erratic power due most likely to the knock retard.
9. We did run 12 runs on the dyno but only charged him for 3
10. He’s very happy with the system and does feel the power increase.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Safety Car
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,738
Likes: 10
From: Austin, Texas
While I am certainly not an expert on dyno'ing, I have (as I'm sure all of the previous posters have) been monitoring this section since I joined this forum.
I agree that a 30HP gain seems like way too much, but I also think that the starting point of 290HP seems "low" for an MN6 (you all have to agree with that). And as mikemercury states, there could have been legitimate reasons for that "low" output, and we would need more data to understand why that was the case.
If one considers the "typical" MN6 power output of 300-305HP, then the gain would be closer to 15HP, which I think we would all consider more "legit".
The fact is the numbers are right there for all to see, and I for one thank Matt for posting his before/after data, and Ernie for his explanation of the work done.
We are all constantly asking for before/after dyno data with regard to intakes, as they are the most common performance mod. Let's "question", but not "flame" a poster for doing this, and just take the data for what it's worth.
Just my $0.02
I agree that a 30HP gain seems like way too much, but I also think that the starting point of 290HP seems "low" for an MN6 (you all have to agree with that). And as mikemercury states, there could have been legitimate reasons for that "low" output, and we would need more data to understand why that was the case.
If one considers the "typical" MN6 power output of 300-305HP, then the gain would be closer to 15HP, which I think we would all consider more "legit".
The fact is the numbers are right there for all to see, and I for one thank Matt for posting his before/after data, and Ernie for his explanation of the work done.
We are all constantly asking for before/after dyno data with regard to intakes, as they are the most common performance mod. Let's "question", but not "flame" a poster for doing this, and just take the data for what it's worth.
Just my $0.02
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale Fl
I do feel it was pretty high also but the numbers stand.
I had explained that he would get around 17 to 22 gain and that I did think the 29 plus was high. I did notice that with his original stock run that the timing was being reduced by knock drastically. This could be a clogged filter or the computers original program mapping of the timing table for a certain temps.
Either way he is Happy.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
I had explained that he would get around 17 to 22 gain and that I did think the 29 plus was high. I did notice that with his original stock run that the timing was being reduced by knock drastically. This could be a clogged filter or the computers original program mapping of the timing table for a certain temps.
Either way he is Happy.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 19,965
Likes: 6,770
From: Bonneville Salt Flats
My dyno man says he can print out any #s ya want--if he had a mind to do so. Hence, I have to wonder about some of the things posted on auto forums.
Last edited by Avanti; Jan 10, 2005 at 11:42 AM.
Team Owner
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 36,453
Likes: 2
From: Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position.... DFW, TX
St. Jude Donor '05
As stated before- the gain seems a little high, but the final HP figures seem about right. The TQ numbers are high, though I wouldn't worry about it.
Either way, it sounds like BPP took good care of you and you're happy with the results. Ignore the naysayers- they're like jackels sometimes.
Either way, it sounds like BPP took good care of you and you're happy with the results. Ignore the naysayers- they're like jackels sometimes.
Instructor
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: Rochester New York
I have a 2002 LS1 and when I installed the VortexRam induction system on my car I couldn't believe the performance jump. Now I haven't had my car on a dyno so I don't clam any hp increases. But there is a big difference in performance.My only question is when it was dynoed you don't get the ram air effect you do when going 60 mph. However I believe it's still one of the best induction systems out there.By the way at the time the only mods that were on my car was my throttle body was ported and polished. 
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Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale Fl
You can push buttons and get any number you want that is why we did everything in front of the customer. Nothing was touched when we started with the stock system.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale Fl
That was exactly where the dyno peaked. It still kept the power up at the higher rpm point also.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,233
Likes: 5
To Ernie, I hope to have you install your intake on my 04Z at 2005 Carlisle if I don;t buy one sooner. Have you had any codes come up on 04Z's? What peramiters were you changing with your lap top on cars at Carlisle this past year ? Thanks, Skip 
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale Fl
We sometimes get LTFT on the lean side so we compensate for the additional airflow coming in. Don't get me wrong you can still use the Vortex and get great power without programming.
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Ernie
www.BreathlessPerformance.com
Race Director
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 17,101
Likes: 4
From: No more yankee my wankee, the Donger is tired!
Originally Posted by imagine32000
I personally watched Ernie & his crew do 3 dyno runs before the install, then the install, & 3 dyno runs after the install. The graph will speak for itself. No programming was done, no tricks behind my back (I saw every step of the process), nothing. Dyno, bolt-on, dyno.
So Matt, they did the dyno, took the car some place else in the shop for the work, and then came back for another set of dyno pulls?
You can get different numbers by strapping the car down a little tighter. If the car is cooler, it will make better numbers. But the worse deed, is fudging the numbers by making the correction factor, vehicle weight, or any other variable in the mustang dyno different.
Racer
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale/Miami FL
Originally Posted by Jeffvette
So Matt, they did the dyno, took the car some place else in the shop for the work, and then came back for another set of dyno pulls?
You can get different numbers by strapping the car down a little tighter. If the car is cooler, it will make better numbers. But the worse deed, is fudging the numbers by making the correction factor, vehicle weight, or any other variable in the mustang dyno different.
You can get different numbers by strapping the car down a little tighter. If the car is cooler, it will make better numbers. But the worse deed, is fudging the numbers by making the correction factor, vehicle weight, or any other variable in the mustang dyno different.
- Matt
Thread Starter
Melting Slicks
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 2,324
Likes: 0
From: Fort Lauderdale Fl
Racer
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
From: San Francisco Ca
I for one have been there before and am skeptical!
My experiences were:
320 rwhp bone stock 2001 C5 MN6
Installed BPP Vortext Ram Air, BPP Air Bridge, Corsa Cat Back and x-pipe.
Same day, same shop same dyno after install - consistent 310 rwhp.
Ernie, at the time you told me that the intake upgrades I made would not effect the dyno results due to the ram effects, apparently that has changed now.
I don't disagree that the Ram Air is responsible for some minor power increase in real world driving applications but to even hint that 10-30 rwhp is the result of your air cleaner over a stock (clean) air cleaner is a sham.
My experiences were:
320 rwhp bone stock 2001 C5 MN6
Installed BPP Vortext Ram Air, BPP Air Bridge, Corsa Cat Back and x-pipe.
Same day, same shop same dyno after install - consistent 310 rwhp.
Ernie, at the time you told me that the intake upgrades I made would not effect the dyno results due to the ram effects, apparently that has changed now.
I don't disagree that the Ram Air is responsible for some minor power increase in real world driving applications but to even hint that 10-30 rwhp is the result of your air cleaner over a stock (clean) air cleaner is a sham.
