6-speed Automatic?
Team Owner
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From: Damn Connecticut Yankee
Originally Posted by shopdog
Talking about walking on the Moon, can we do that today? No, we abandoned the technology which let us do that (Saturn V) in favor of the Shuttle. The Saturn V never shed foam, it didn't depend on fragile heat tiles. It did come in on time and under budget, and it did launch a whole space station (Skylab) in one piece. It cost 1/4 as much per launch, and put 4 times the payload in LEO. Newer is better? I wonder. The only thing the Shuttle offers that Saturn did not is the ability to bring large bulky items back from orbit. But when was the last time we needed to do that? Shuttle was founded on the premise that newer higher tech would almost automatically lower costs and increase performance. It hasn't.
Back to Chevrolet cars, the small block Chevy V8 has been in production even longer than anyone's A4, yet it is still the right engine for a Corvette. Or are you next going to tell us we need to dump it for something newer, say a Wankel, a turbine, or a fuel cell?
Like the small block, the A4 has been refined over the years until it has practically no faults. Its first 3 gears, coupled with an excellent torque converter, are a nearly perfect match to the torque curve of the engine, and it has an overdrive and lockup clutch for fuel economy. What's not to like? If it were behind a peaky little 3 or 4 liter engine, or if it was in a heavy tow vehicle, then maybe it would need more gears. But it isn't, and it doesn't.
Sometimes the old guys got it right the first time. Physical principles don't change, fitness for purpose doesn't change. Etc. The Romans invented the arch a couple thousand years ago. We still use it today, because good design principles stand the test of time.
Back to Chevrolet cars, the small block Chevy V8 has been in production even longer than anyone's A4, yet it is still the right engine for a Corvette. Or are you next going to tell us we need to dump it for something newer, say a Wankel, a turbine, or a fuel cell?
Like the small block, the A4 has been refined over the years until it has practically no faults. Its first 3 gears, coupled with an excellent torque converter, are a nearly perfect match to the torque curve of the engine, and it has an overdrive and lockup clutch for fuel economy. What's not to like? If it were behind a peaky little 3 or 4 liter engine, or if it was in a heavy tow vehicle, then maybe it would need more gears. But it isn't, and it doesn't.
Sometimes the old guys got it right the first time. Physical principles don't change, fitness for purpose doesn't change. Etc. The Romans invented the arch a couple thousand years ago. We still use it today, because good design principles stand the test of time.
Be that as it may , the A4 does have a significant fault for a road car: a long kick down pause at typical passing speeds. This shortcoming should be addressed by the A6 .
I won't recommend dumping the small block Chevy engine , nor will I recommend replacing fuel injection with a carburetor .
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Originally Posted by ProfMoriarty
NASA destroyed the Saturn records to help force shuttle funding .
Be that as it may , the A4 does have a significant fault for a road car: a long kick down pause at typical passing speeds. This shortcoming should be addressed by the A6 .
Thread Starter
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From: NM
Originally Posted by jschindler
The answer is definitely gas mileage. And why aren't you questioning why the manual transmission is a six speed if you think it doesn't make sense?
But I never said that there was anything wrong with that. Just don't understand the big to-do about adding a gas mileage gear.
Originally Posted by ProfMoriarty
Let's put things into perspective.
With minor changes, the current A4 has been in production before the invention of the PC, DVD, CD, VCR, cellular telephone, touch tone telephone, man's first steps on the moon, a few years after the invention of the cassette tape, and before NBC became the first 100% color broadcasting television network.
With minor changes, the current A4 has been in production before the invention of the PC, DVD, CD, VCR, cellular telephone, touch tone telephone, man's first steps on the moon, a few years after the invention of the cassette tape, and before NBC became the first 100% color broadcasting television network.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,514
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From: Orwigsburg Pa.
From a driving perspective the a4 is fine for the 0 to whatever speeds. It does have some holes for performing while on a roll. One extra gear would cure all that ails it in filling in gaps and optimizing downshifts. I would expect the extra TWO gears is more about competing with others manufacturers and fuel economy. I will not bash what I have not yet driven however. It may be wonderful or then again it may be BUSY. I personally would have preferred a performance oriented A5 BUT ONLY TIME WILL TELL.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Of Mind
Originally Posted by SHOOTER 49
From a driving perspective the a4 is fine for the 0 to whatever speeds. It does have some holes for performing while on a roll. One extra gear would cure all that ails it in filling in gaps and optimizing downshifts. I would expect the extra TWO gears is more about competing with others manufacturers and fuel economy. I will not bash what I have not yet driven however. It may be wonderful or then again it may be BUSY. I personally would have preferred a performance oriented A5 BUT ONLY TIME WILL TELL.
I spent a far too long time testing an A4 a few days ago. On the highway, I didn't notice anything irregular until I really stepped down. Then, the kick was inefficiently large - fun - but stupid. I'm seriously debating waiting for the A6 for that reason.
Team Owner
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From: When all is said and done... there is a hell of a lot more said than done. Riverside,Texas
St. Jude Donor '05 thru '26
Originally Posted by jschindler
And why aren't you questioning why the manual transmission is a six speed if you think it doesn't make sense?
Exactly
Thread Starter
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From: NM
Originally Posted by ben dover
Quote:
Exactly
Originally Posted by jschindler
And why aren't you questioning why the manual transmission is a six speed if you think it doesn't make sense?
Exactly
Exactly
Exactly
Originally Posted by tom73
Quote:
The same reasoning would apply to the maunal trans. In performance driving the 5th and 6th gears are never used, just the basic 4-speed. 5th and 6th are only for highway driving, for gas mileage.
But I never said that there was anything wrong with that. Just don't understand the big to-do about adding a gas mileage gear.
Originally Posted by jschindler
The answer is definitely gas mileage. And why aren't you questioning why the manual transmission is a six speed if you think it doesn't make sense?
But I never said that there was anything wrong with that. Just don't understand the big to-do about adding a gas mileage gear.
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Team Owner
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From: Texas
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03 thru '10, '17
Originally Posted by Tom73
Guess my calendar is a bit different then yours. On mine the Vette got the A4 with the '82 model year. Some other GM models may have gotten it a bit earlier but not by much.
To the group: what are the ratios for the A6?
Thread Starter
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From: NM
Originally Posted by need-for-speed
But what he's getting at is that the 700R4 was actually based on the turbo 350 which came out in the 60's.
Team Owner
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From: Texas
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03 thru '10, '17
I'm not taking sides here. Just pointing out his "angle" .
However, there are virtually no similarities between the powerglide and the 700R4. There are some similarities between the turbo 350 and the 700R4.
p.s. I think the A6 is a good thing. It's not for me (I'm an M6 man) but it will make many auto C6 owners happy. It needs a lower axle ratio though.
However, there are virtually no similarities between the powerglide and the 700R4. There are some similarities between the turbo 350 and the 700R4.
p.s. I think the A6 is a good thing. It's not for me (I'm an M6 man) but it will make many auto C6 owners happy. It needs a lower axle ratio though.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by Tom73
With that logic then you can go all the way back to the first automatic transmission.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by need-for-speed
I was thinking the same thing because the 4L60E (and 4L65E) are obviously based on the 700R4 which came out circa 1982. But what he's getting at is that the 700R4 was actually based on the turbo 350 which came out in the 60's.
To the group: what are the ratios for the A6?
To the group: what are the ratios for the A6?
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,027
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From: Shiloh Ohio
Originally Posted by shurite44
need for speed, I saw this posted in another forum. I will try to find it. Wish me luck.
Post 1
The X15R is capable of handling 430 lb.-ft. of torque.
The X16R is capable of handling 520 lb.-ft. of torque.
The C6 Coupe and 'Vert are getting the X15R (which will have a production name.) The rear end is 2.56:1. This rear end carries a 2% reduction in performance over a 4L65E w/ 3.15:1 and a 2.6% fuel economy benefit over the same. This same rear end carries a 5.2% performance benefit over the 4L65E w/ 2.73:1 and also has a 0.7% fuel economy benefit over the same.
Post 2
Some numbers that some might find interesting:
'06 C6 A6 1st 4.027
2nd 2.364
3rd 1.532
4th 1.152
5th 0.852
6th 0.667 Rear end 2.56
MN6
1st 2.66
2nd 1.78
3rd 1.30
4th 1.00
5th 0.74
6th 0.50
On the A6 Auto, it looks like some strong gearing in 1st & 2nd. Also it appears that the 3.15 Performance Axle Ratio is not an option.
This information was taken, partly from the short lived '06 order guide, and another forum informant.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,270
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From: Prescott AZ
To the group: what are the ratios for the A6?
I have the ratios from the Caddy announcement. The GM Powertrain posting infers that performance will suffer a bit with the 2.56 differential. The two items taken together conflict as the Caddy A6 first gear is lower than the Vette A4 first gear even with the optional G90 perfromance axle. Look at the post 2 above. The implication is that maybe the Vette will have different ratios than the Caddy. Maybe we will find out this Thursday. Duplicating much of the above post but including the axle ratios ...
The various first gear thru top gear ratios are:
4L65E (A4)= [3.06,1.63,1.00,0.70] (4 speed auto)
6L80E (A6)= [4.03,2.36,1.53,1.15,0.852,0.667](6 speed auto)
T56 (M6) = [2.66,1.78,1.30,1.00,0.74,0.50] (6 speed manual)
In GM automatic tranny speak 6L80E means six speed, longitudinal mount, the 80 relates to a torque capacity, and the E means electronic shift control. A quick multiplication gives torque multiplication factors for axle ratios times tranny gear ratios. These use the Corvette axle ratios with the known Caddy A6.
2.56*x6L80E = [10.31, 6.05, 3.92, 2.95, 2.18, 1.71] (*expected axle with A6)
2.73*x4L65E = [ 8.35, 4.45, 2.73, 1.91] (*current std A4 axle)
3.15*x4L65E = [ 9.64, 5.13, 3.15, 2.21] (*current hi perf A4 axle)
3.42*xT56 = [ 9.10, 6.09, 4.45, 3.42, 2.53, 1.71] (*current M6 axle)
That big red 10.31 for the 6 speed indicates a bigger engine torque multiplication than any of the current transmission choices. It ought to be a rubber laying bitch too... if cars are female. The effective differential ratio in top gear, 1.71, matches that of the current six speed manual which has a CAFE of 28 mpg versus the current automatic 26 mpg for highway. So, the six speed gives you the best of both worlds. Now build the damn thing GM!
I have the ratios from the Caddy announcement. The GM Powertrain posting infers that performance will suffer a bit with the 2.56 differential. The two items taken together conflict as the Caddy A6 first gear is lower than the Vette A4 first gear even with the optional G90 perfromance axle. Look at the post 2 above. The implication is that maybe the Vette will have different ratios than the Caddy. Maybe we will find out this Thursday. Duplicating much of the above post but including the axle ratios ...
The various first gear thru top gear ratios are:
4L65E (A4)= [3.06,1.63,1.00,0.70] (4 speed auto)
6L80E (A6)= [4.03,2.36,1.53,1.15,0.852,0.667](6 speed auto)
T56 (M6) = [2.66,1.78,1.30,1.00,0.74,0.50] (6 speed manual)
In GM automatic tranny speak 6L80E means six speed, longitudinal mount, the 80 relates to a torque capacity, and the E means electronic shift control. A quick multiplication gives torque multiplication factors for axle ratios times tranny gear ratios. These use the Corvette axle ratios with the known Caddy A6.
2.56*x6L80E = [10.31, 6.05, 3.92, 2.95, 2.18, 1.71] (*expected axle with A6)
2.73*x4L65E = [ 8.35, 4.45, 2.73, 1.91] (*current std A4 axle)
3.15*x4L65E = [ 9.64, 5.13, 3.15, 2.21] (*current hi perf A4 axle)
3.42*xT56 = [ 9.10, 6.09, 4.45, 3.42, 2.53, 1.71] (*current M6 axle)
That big red 10.31 for the 6 speed indicates a bigger engine torque multiplication than any of the current transmission choices. It ought to be a rubber laying bitch too... if cars are female. The effective differential ratio in top gear, 1.71, matches that of the current six speed manual which has a CAFE of 28 mpg versus the current automatic 26 mpg for highway. So, the six speed gives you the best of both worlds. Now build the damn thing GM!
Burning Brakes
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 790
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From: meraux louisiana
Faster... I sure hope so!
I like this quote
"That big red 10.31 for the 6 speed indicates a bigger engine torque multiplication than any of the current transmission choices. It ought to be a rubber laying bitch too... if cars are female."
My C5 with the performance rear end only lays rubber half the time in this horrible New Orleans heat on clean cement with no power braking. Just stomp it and hope for the best . I understand this is not uncommon for C5's 
. Be truthful guys and girls! 
I want my C6 to be able to do it ALL the time
.
"That big red 10.31 for the 6 speed indicates a bigger engine torque multiplication than any of the current transmission choices. It ought to be a rubber laying bitch too... if cars are female."
My C5 with the performance rear end only lays rubber half the time in this horrible New Orleans heat on clean cement with no power braking. Just stomp it and hope for the best
. I understand this is not uncommon for C5's . Be truthful guys and girls! I want my C6 to be able to do it ALL the time
.