GM and Chrysler merger...it looks like it's going to happen!!
11-06-2008, 10:37 PM
#23
Race Director
Not to mention the fact that Wards seems to be an industry promoter and therefore predicting the worst of all possible outcomes, the 100,000 to 200,000 job loss scenario. A scenario which might be completely bogus and a scare tactic to try and goad federal "bailout" dollars---aka, your money and mine.
Plus, calling the Volt something to be heralded at what appears to be a premium price coming in a year or two, well, that doesn't sound enticing to me.
Finally, if you know about Cerberus, it is not a car company. It is an investment firm, a holder of assets mostly to be sold at a profit. That supposed $11 billion in cash won't be "sold" to GM for $5 billion, I can guarantee you that. They will make a profit on their investment, in addition to the capital they've already pulled out of the deal, plus profit.
Plus, calling the Volt something to be heralded at what appears to be a premium price coming in a year or two, well, that doesn't sound enticing to me.
Finally, if you know about Cerberus, it is not a car company. It is an investment firm, a holder of assets mostly to be sold at a profit. That supposed $11 billion in cash won't be "sold" to GM for $5 billion, I can guarantee you that. They will make a profit on their investment, in addition to the capital they've already pulled out of the deal, plus profit.
The reality of the Volt (IMO) is that it's price point (reported to be between $30K - $40K, probably closer to $40K) will kill it and sadly, possibly GM. A typical, hotdog (again, IMO) move that didn't need to be done. It is being reported that there might be a federal tax credit as high as $8K on the Volt so we can all share in paying for this overpriced plug in. And here sits the Cruze, almost ready to roll, and it will be intro'd in Korea (WTF?) and Europe (ditto WTF?) well before the U.S. The U.S. gets the Cobalt for 2 more years. And Honda will sell countless truckloads of Civics.
I am the proud owner of a corvette, I would be happy to buy another american car if someone would make another car (other than the corvette) that I want. My wife and I were shopping for a new car for her last month (lease expired on her Mazda CX-7). We decided we did not want another SUV (crossover or not). We wanted a station wagon. I am the first to admit that wagons fell out of favor some time ago in America even though Subaru, VW, Volvo, Audi, BMW, M-B, and others offer wagons in America. Still, this is what we wanted and we had ZERO American choices. So, we got a Passat wagon, which we both love. Sorry for this rant, I have been a big Wagoner/Lutz cheerleader, but when I saw the reported price for the Volt, the Cruze intro, etc..I am left to wonder what in the hell these 2 guys are thinking about.
Jimmy
11-06-2008, 10:41 PM
#24
Drifting
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I had read where GM is wanting the tax payers money to fund the buy out. This article made note of that. they just call it government funds. No, its our tax dollars.
11-06-2008, 11:25 PM
#26
Race Director
Again, sorry to be so negative but GM in bed with Chrysler makes zero sense in any shape, form, or fashion. Chrysler has their own crappy product mix, which will take 3 - 4 years to fix (minimum) and cost a bundle of money. Where does this money come from? GM? We taxpayers are on the hook for $700,000,000,000 now.
Jimmy
11-06-2008, 11:36 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
the govt will give them the extra 25 billion, which will keep them afloat for another 2 years.
during that time, as sure as the sun comes up, you will see countless executives leaving, each with massive payouts and bonuses...all coming out of the 25 billion.
during that time, as sure as the sun comes up, you will see countless executives leaving, each with massive payouts and bonuses...all coming out of the 25 billion.
11-06-2008, 11:37 PM
#28
Race Director
11-06-2008, 11:39 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
Our country is being bought up by foreigners every day and our government is letting it happen. Hopefully GM/Chrysler is not next.
Remember...these are NOT American companies anymore than Toyota or Sony. Their history is American but they no longer consider themselves American companies. They became global multi-nationals the minute they opened major plants overseas. They are legal and accounting entities that look to any government or people for money. Whether it is in the form of tax incentives to locate somewhere or for bailouts when they have no other way to feed from the money bucket, they are greed incarnate. You cannot just blame the unions, or the foreigners, or the top brass. You have to blame them all AND you have to look in the mirror and say one word "CAPITALISM".That is what this is.
Bailing them out is not truly capitalistic and neither is it truly socialistic. It is bowing to greed which is universal. We must decide what is more in our best interest, which amounts to our own greed.
I say forget them until and unless the top officers give up a huge amount of their wages/bonuses to help. I also say forget them if the unions don't make key consessions. $25 billion not enough!?
11-07-2008, 12:14 AM
#31
Burning Brakes
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The GM/UAW agreement was re-done last year, with the union taking on a great deal of the "legacy" costs. While I agree that unions have been part of the problem, a union doesn't design the product. GM's product mix has been problematic for years, product was what Lutz was brought in to fix. Has he? I don't think so. Corvettes and CTS's won't fix GM's financial woes. Malibu's and cars like it will (as will the G8, but that's a Holden and I don't think he gets credit for it). Cruze...where are you? Not to pile on Lutz, but the Sky/Solstice were his babies, clean sheet designs with a clear target (MX-5 Miata). What he made is a car that is great looking, is about 400 pounds overweight, with a trunk that is laughable, a convertible top that is almost unworkable, all while having a TARGET in the Miata that has NONE of the Sky/Solstice design flaws.
Again, sorry to be so negative but GM in bed with Chrysler makes zero sense in any shape, form, or fashion. Chrysler has their own crappy product mix, which will take 3 - 4 years to fix (minimum) and cost a bundle of money. Where does this money come from? GM? We taxpayers are on the hook for $700,000,000,000 now.
Jimmy
Again, sorry to be so negative but GM in bed with Chrysler makes zero sense in any shape, form, or fashion. Chrysler has their own crappy product mix, which will take 3 - 4 years to fix (minimum) and cost a bundle of money. Where does this money come from? GM? We taxpayers are on the hook for $700,000,000,000 now.
Jimmy
The contracts need to be re-done from the ground up. Not a few concessions but major revisions.
I think we tend to be a little hard on Chrysler. I think they have some incredible cars. Not all, but some. Like the Challenger. Who can deny this car it's place at the very top of all muscle cars of all time? A big seller and yes with a V-6 it will sell even more. The Charger. How many of you would mind throwing the wife and kids in this car for a trip to the mall and out on the town later on? This car is fast, a great looking 4 door with the rear doors and windows shaped to almost appear as a 2 door. And it sells very well. The Neon. Now not a great car but great on gas and a good seller. Chrysler has some of the best mini-vans in the segment. And the Grand Cherokee. A nice looking SUV.
I personally think Chrysler has some great design people. We tend to forget some of the disasters GM has made. The new GTO is just plain. Many others, way to many to mention. And the asian cars have some trash also. I would not be caught dead in some of the asian cars they are so ugly. In today's market no one is doing good. I'm not saying a merger will work. But, people getting paid a lot more than any of us must know something. Yes, things are bad. But when your down the only way is up in most cases. GM will be around for a long time. Let's hope Chrysler is also. After all every one of us on this forum is going for their very last ride in a black GM car.
Last edited by Jeff Pedersen; 11-07-2008 at 12:16 AM.
11-07-2008, 07:57 AM
#32
Team Owner
The contracts need to be re-done from the ground up. Not a few concessions but major revisions.
I think we tend to be a little hard on Chrysler. I think they have some incredible cars. Not all, but some. Like the Challenger. Who can deny this car it's place at the very top of all muscle cars of all time? A big seller and yes with a V-6 it will sell even more. The Charger. How many of you would mind throwing the wife and kids in this car for a trip to the mall and out on the town later on? This car is fast, a great looking 4 door with the rear doors and windows shaped to almost appear as a 2 door. And it sells very well. The Neon. Now not a great car but great on gas and a good seller. Chrysler has some of the best mini-vans in the segment. And the Grand Cherokee. A nice looking SUV.
I personally think Chrysler has some great design people. We tend to forget some of the disasters GM has made. The new GTO is just plain. Many others, way to many to mention. And the asian cars have some trash also. I would not be caught dead in some of the asian cars they are so ugly. In today's market no one is doing good. I'm not saying a merger will work. But, people getting paid a lot more than any of us must know something. Yes, things are bad. But when your down the only way is up in most cases. GM will be around for a long time. Let's hope Chrysler is also. After all every one of us on this forum is going for their very last ride in a black GM car.
I think we tend to be a little hard on Chrysler. I think they have some incredible cars. Not all, but some. Like the Challenger. Who can deny this car it's place at the very top of all muscle cars of all time? A big seller and yes with a V-6 it will sell even more. The Charger. How many of you would mind throwing the wife and kids in this car for a trip to the mall and out on the town later on? This car is fast, a great looking 4 door with the rear doors and windows shaped to almost appear as a 2 door. And it sells very well. The Neon. Now not a great car but great on gas and a good seller. Chrysler has some of the best mini-vans in the segment. And the Grand Cherokee. A nice looking SUV.
I personally think Chrysler has some great design people. We tend to forget some of the disasters GM has made. The new GTO is just plain. Many others, way to many to mention. And the asian cars have some trash also. I would not be caught dead in some of the asian cars they are so ugly. In today's market no one is doing good. I'm not saying a merger will work. But, people getting paid a lot more than any of us must know something. Yes, things are bad. But when your down the only way is up in most cases. GM will be around for a long time. Let's hope Chrysler is also. After all every one of us on this forum is going for their very last ride in a black GM car.
I personally considered a 300 C as a daily driver a couple of times. Why didn't I buy one? I can honestly say the main reason is dealer greed. I got tired of seeing all the pimped out 300's on the road that dealers added 22" wheels and a variety of other pimp bling to them.
The Jeep is another one I considered for my wife until I went and looked at them. I was astonished at how little room it had inside - especially the back seat. And it's just another body on frame SUV that gets lousy gas mileage.
I thought when the 300/Charger came out that Chrysler was really going places. But look at the Sebrings and such that have come out since then. They are pathetic.
11-07-2008, 08:03 AM
#33
Team Owner
Actually TWO stipulations - more UAW involvement. The dems have to start returning favors for their support and $400 million investment by the UAW this election cycle.
11-07-2008, 08:12 AM
#34
Le Mans Master
I don't find this objectional at all. My brother has a Chrysler 300 SRT & loves it. Plus, when we run the Corvette Challange at Englishtown we usually share the track with modern Mopar muscle. Those folks are car nuts just like us. 
By the way, I had read that when Daimler-Chrysler wanted to build a modern hemi, they modeled it after the LS1 & basically changed the heads to incorporate a Hemi design. Who knows? At least they're American.
By the way, I had read that when Daimler-Chrysler wanted to build a modern hemi, they modeled it after the LS1 & basically changed the heads to incorporate a Hemi design. Who knows? At least they're American.
11-07-2008, 12:23 PM
#35
Le Mans Master
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2021 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I agree. GM was having financial problems long before the economy went south and a lot of the blame for that should fall on the current management and the unions. I am also against any government bailout if the current management is allowed to benefit from the bailout at taxpayer's expense. The union workers are going to have to suffer financially just like everyone else in this country. If the union workers can't get it through thick head that they will have to take a hit financially, then let them loose their jobs and see how much worse it can be. I don't have the protections of a union, so I have no sympathy for them either.
Well said!! I agree 100%!
11-07-2008, 12:30 PM
#36
Race Director
No matter what happens in Detroit, looks like I'll be in my current C6 for quite a while . . . hopefully! At least I'll look for it to be paid for not too very long.
11-07-2008, 12:52 PM
#38
Melting Slicks
now what makes me laugh is the UAW always supports the Demokrats and they crap all over the auto industry (CAFE,EPA), thats how stupid the UAW workers are. What has the Demokratic Congress done for ANY workers the last 2 years except kill ALL industry by doing NOTHING.
11-07-2008, 12:52 PM
#39
Melting Slicks
11-07-2008, 01:56 PM
#40
Melting Slicks
What I find SCARY is that all the money we are borrowing from China, they are buying military supplies and weapons. Then Russia, China and Venezuela are practicing military exercises.
Who are they planning to attack??
Obama will be tested when he takes office, Biden even said so, I believe that test will be a strike against the USA by either all of the above countries or one of them. I hope I am wrong but the signs are pointing to that.
The money we are giving stupid GM is being borrowed by China. We are getting into SO MUCH debt with them, that we will never be able to repay it.
Who are they planning to attack??
Obama will be tested when he takes office, Biden even said so, I believe that test will be a strike against the USA by either all of the above countries or one of them. I hope I am wrong but the signs are pointing to that.
The money we are giving stupid GM is being borrowed by China. We are getting into SO MUCH debt with them, that we will never be able to repay it.