Hey guys. I'm wanting to convert over to E85 and need some advice please. Here are my mods for the car. Are my 65# injectors and my fuel pump capable to run E85 for my setup.




LSX 440 ci Solid Roller 13.5:1 Compression
LSX Iron Block
Callies Forged Crank
Diamond Forged Pistons
Comp Star Forged Rods
Solid Lifters
Harland Sharp 1.85 Lifters
Smith Brother Push Rods
Comp Springs
ARP Head Studs
Ported Z06 Intake Manifold
Ported Z06 Throttle Body
Z06 Mass Air Flow Sensor
Vararam Intake
Ported LS7 Heads
Custom Comp Cam
FAST 65 lb. Fuel Injectors
LG Super Pro Headers w/ Race Pipes
Borla Stinger Exhaust
Z06 Transmission
Z06 Rear Differential (3.42)
ZR-1 Clutch
Katech Light-Weight Flywheel
MGW Shifter
Drive Shaft Shop HD Driveshaft
Z06 Oil Cooler
Z06 Radiator
180 Degree Thermostat
Phadt Fully Adjustable Coil-Overs
Z06 Brakes
Z06 Front + Rear Sway Bars (Rear powder-coated red)
CCW 505A Polished Wheels (18X9.5, 19X13)
Nitto NTO5 Tires
Z06 Rear "Wide Body" Conversion with painted spoiler
Katech Custom Powder-Coated Valve Covers with Coil Relocators w/ MSD

 

The fuel system on the Corvette from the factory is not compatible with E85. You will experience some problems over time if you do not change out the pump and the lines - not sure about the gas tanks themselves.

 

What type of problems would I see happening. I've never messed with E85. Please enlighten me

 

E85 is a lot more aggressive to seals and gaskets. It will turn certain materials in to a puddle of goo for lack of a more technical description. As the materials breakdown they will fail and contaminate the rest of the fuel system (fuel filter in gas tank, fuel rails and injectors. E85 obviously has a high alcohol content and the materials that it comes in contact with must be resistant to alcohol. Once all of that is sorted out I've read that you will need to richen the mixture with larger injectors.

I'll add a little disclaimer here. I've been told by Corvette engineers that our fuel systems are not compatible. There are others on the forum that are inclined to not believe that and have been making trials and running their cars with E85 with success. I don't know what the time frame may be for potential problems to creep up but I'm inclined to side with the engineers that designed the fuel system. Your mileage may vary.

 

Why E85 in a Vette? Benefits are?

 

Most state it makes more power and has a higher octane rating.

 

Actually it doesn't hurt the corvette at all in regards to fuel system upgrades (lines and injectors) The gaskets are designed to handle E85. Hell - all fuel now comes with E15 if I'm not mistaken. We use the same parts as all the flex fuel trucks out there (gaskets & fuel lines). Even the gas tanks have correct interior linings. You might need to upgrade your fuel pump because of of your mods however, you will need bigger injectors.

Now all that said I own a 2008 LS3. I'm not positive about the LS2. Many people are on E85 ONLY and have 0 issues.

Here is a dyno graph from my tuner who owns a 2008 LS3 MN6 Z51 with 0 mods other than E85.

91 pump gas - 375whp
E85 - 418whp

Grand total of 43whp gain on a BONE stock car that doesn't even have NPP.








BE GENITAL....

 

What size would you suggest I go up to with the injectors and fuel pump? I currently run Sunoco 104 but I now have E85 at several stations around me!

 

E85 is cheaper and actually has a higher octane rating. I believe it's anywhere from 105-109.

I'm not sure what size you should go to however, your tunner will. I have a phone number if you are interested in getting the tune done by someone who is proven.

 

Check with Member Spinmonster. He has done quite a lot of research on this subject. More likely to find him on this forum:http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...rformance-101/

 

Or he could just install a 160 degree thermostat in his stock engine and gain the same horsepower as all those big cubes, hot cam, and E85 and do it for a lot less.

 

375 is what a pure stock LS3 puts to the ground, and a tune alone(for 91 octane) will kick it to around 400. I don't see that E85 added that much.

 

Your correct! this case was actually tuned on 91 oct... sorry about that. I think his stock numbers were close to 365 and with a mild tune is hitting close to 375. I dont think anyone on 91 without NPP has hit 400 with tune only... including not having a 160 stat. If we were going off of stock then it's actually a higher number gained.

I have seen cars with 93 pump gass and a 160 stat hit 400+ whp.

 

Ethanol has 34% less energy by volume than gasoline, so it's very interesting that E85 produces more HP in the LS3 than gasoline. Ethanol is much more efficient in producing power in high compression engines. Who knew the 10.7:1 compression, the high flow fuel injectors along with the stock tune optimized for high octane fuel was an Ethanol powerhouse? I wonder what happens to fuel economy with E85. I'm sure it'a reduced but I like to see by how much.

Ethanol is also much more thermally efficient than gasoline, so I wouldn't think you would want to install a lower temp thermostat.

Before everyone goes out and starts using E85 in their vetts, be warned that ethanol does not vaporize well in tempertures below 60 and could present starting issues in cold weather. The 15% gasoline alleviates that to a large extent but really cold temps it could be a problem on an engine like the LS3 that is not tuned specifically for E85.

 

E85 has been available in other parts for a lot longer then here in WNY. I have friends in North Carolina that have been using e85 for longer then 5-6 years in transportation DD and racing without issue as well. The harshness of ethanol is much overblown and often confused with methanol which is more hygroscopic and corrosive.
I have used varying amounts of E85 in my 2003 Silverado 2500 HD non flex fuel for over 2 years without issue. The mileage will drop and it's different for different vehicles.
You need 25-30% more volume then gas so I only played with it last year on my 2002 Z06 at 25-30%. I raced the Z06 only on 93 pump Sunoco last year because logging showed the injectors maxed out. I then added a Racetronix hotwire that helped and last week added a Kenne Bell BAP that has really helped. On gas at top rpm the IDC last year was 95-100% and with the BAP set at 25% with 33% ethanol the IDC went down to 84%. I log delivered torque and a second gear pull showed 31 ft lbs of torque increase over gas last year. The LS6 is 10.5 compression and loves it.
I use to race my gasser 13.5 compression on methanol and loved that compared to gas but it required more care and maintenance due to its characteristics. E85 is the best of both worlds, performs similar to alky without its issues.
As a transportation only fuel I look at it on a cost per mile basis but as a high performance fuel its just plain cheap HP!
Andy Wicks from Diablo tuned a street TT BBF to 1450 hp on E85, try that with pump gas! Yes you use more of it but it priced cheaper and just compare the cost of C12 to ethanol in cost!
One more thing is dont think gas cannot be corrosive as well depending on what its made up with. The aromatics in the refinery use to eat my work shoes up in 6 months, I had a can of Citgo 110 a few years ago that literally ate a hole in the plastic neck, can you say aromatics?
My two cents.

Carlos

 

If you look at LPG its a similar situation, higher octane, less BTU's per gallon which is what determines mpg. Ak Miller use to specialize in turbo LPG car and he use to minimize the mpg drop by taking advantage of the increased torque via a lower numerical gear ratio to recover mpg, still mpg would often be 5-10% less.
Ethanol has not been optimized the same way, perhaps higher compression or more boost with lower per mile rpms would help recover some mpg in a similar fashion. Again the bottom line is what is the cost per mile for transportation and what is relative performing fuel for high performance.

Carlos

 

Awesome, I hope to have similar results on my tune and more detailed data on mine in the near future.

Carlos

 

Please keep the info coming.

Also I would love to speak to anyone that can and has good knowledge with E85. So this question for people who know! Will I need a different fuel pump then the factory stock pumP. Also how would I determine what injector size I will need??

 

You need 25-30 % more fuel volume so shoot for 30% to be safe. Fuel pump and injectors are intertwined because if you can raise the fuel pump volume and pressure and it allows your present injectors to work less (lower duty cycle) and provide more fuel volume At 90% plus IDC an injector is open almost all the time so there is less control.
Take a look at Kenne Bell site and read their section on the Boost a Pump even if you choose another method. The info is backed with some good tech that will help you understand the issues involved. If you run too much fuel pump you can heat the fuel more, and beat the pump up, if you run bigger injectors only and not have enough fuel volume they can provide the fuel but it is like a garden hose where you can lower the pressure and it works at less efficiency, more like a stream then spray. The factory provides just enough fuel pump and injector for their intended hp range, how you go from there has a few paths.
I chose the BAP because I can extend my injectors ability to work and by using the dial (reostat can raise the fuel volume just enough to cover the fueling needs at different % of ethanol mix. If one has a constant fuel volume but a large range of fueling need the IDC range will be wide and the LTFT's will do the same. If one can taylor the fuel volume range up and down the tune up can stay tighter over a larger fueling need range.My logs have shown once you have a certain fuel mix the LTFT's correct fairly quickly to a certain range until the next time you change that fuel mix.
Folks dont like the reostat because in a situation like blown or nitrous shot if the dial is inadvertently moved the engine could run lean so they prefer max volume and tune accordingly. Personally I would cover that by using relays to max out volume under thse situations and have control the rest of the time. I am not under forced induction so its a personal choice rather then a certain need.
Hope this helps.

Carlos

 

I am extreamly excited to go with E85 next month. One other thing that is easy to forget... E85 is much safer for the environment!

I will be looking fly when I pull up to the E85 pump in my BatMobile