This technical stuff, from knowledgeable people, is very interesting. I always read your (rare!) posts, LBD.

Keep up the good work guys!

 

Although no mainline auto mfgs used fiberglass fuel tanks, many of the fuel cells for racing and specialty cars did.

My replica McLaren M6 GT was originally produced that way in the early 80's. It lasted for around 3-4 years before leaking. I kept smelling gas in the garage and could not find the source until one day when I went to drive the car and the tank was empty and I had filled it a few weeks prior. Once I removed the tank from the pan it was mounted in, it became obvious the bottom was porous. I built a stainless steel one to replace it and no more leaks. It looked better too.

 

I guess I’m showing my age (68) in a “technology marches on” sense. I got in a similar bit of trouble a few years ago saying that stations had three tanks (a dedicated tank for mid-grade), when apparently, many newer stations have two, and blend mid grade at the pump as a mix of regular and premium. I never actually worked in a distribution terminal or retail outlet, but got called in to consult at various times when problems at those locations related to things I was directly involved in either at the refinery or in our research on how fuels and lubes should be put together. Having admitted to those errors, I think they were pretty minor, and the basic message I was sending was correct: blending errors are not a big problem.

I didn’t know that custom cars sometimes used fiberglass tanks, but I don’t think that changes the essence of what I was saying. Ethanol is not a performance problem for mainstream cars, including mainstream specialty cars like Vettes. Even if you go to the E15 question, where a few manufacturers have said their cars shouldn’t use it, my sense is that that’s the lawyers talking, not the engineers. There’s so much blither blather about ethanol that they probably visualize being flooded by people blaming unrelated problems on E15. Before anybody gets all up in arms over E15, I’ll admit that it has happened since I retired and I do not have first hand personal knowledge about possible E15 problems. But I’ve read a fair amount about it, and have not seen anything that convinces me there are any real problems with it beyond the stupidity of ethanol in the first place.

 

Not that you can't all find it, but here's a list of Top Tier gas companies: (fr. here, and note that the list does change from time to time: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html)

"TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline Retailers

Gasoline retailers must meet the high TOP TIER standards with all grades of gasoline to be approved by the automakers as providing TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.

In addition, all gasoline outlets carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards.

Additional gasoline retailers are added to the TOP TIER list as they meet the standards. The retailers known to be on the TOP TIER list are shown below.

TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:


USA
76 Stations
Aloha Petroleum
ARCO
Beacon
BP
Chevron
Conoco
Costco Wholesale
CountryMark
Diamond Shamrock
Entec Stations
Express Convenience Centers
Exxon
Hawaii Fueling Network (HFN)
Holiday Stationstores
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
MFA Oil Co.
Mobil
Ohana Fuels
Phillips 66
QuikTrip
Road Ranger
Shamrock
Shell
Sinclair
Suncor Energy Inc
SuperAmerica
Texaco
Tri-Par Oil Co.
Valero"

Canada
Chevron Canada
CO-OP
Costco Wholesale
Esso
Petro-Canada
Shell Canada
Tempo

Puerto Rico
Puma Energy Caribe, LLC
Shell"

 

So why is the diesel quality in the US so inferior to that of the diesel readily available across Europe? Since everything from locomotives to large trucks (who transport nearly everything we consume) use diesel, why can't we at least get a decent common standard in the US that is comparable to European diesel in terms of lubricity and cetane?

Cadilliac is rumored to begin offering diesels and like Audi does, a modern diesel powerplant is akin to the torque of an old big block and does actually have a performance application.

 

Thanks for the list and the link. For years I've been using Sunoco assuming it was a big brand name and a top tier gasoline. I should have known because there are a few Sunoco stations near home and they are the cheapest around. I guess the "you get what you pay for" rule applies. Another great reason to hang out on this board.

BTW, I've always subscribed to the fun way of keeping the valves clean. Periodically do a WOT blast to at least 5k rpm and blow out all that crap. After all, it is a high performance car and we might as well use all those ponies once in a while.

Carmen

 

Carmen, right up until about a month ago, I also thought Sunoco was a Top Tier gas! And then Gearhead Jim happened to mention it wasn't and I looked at the list and saw that "Suncor" name. I thought that was their new, corp. name for Sunoco. Wrong. I looked them up and turns out they are only minimally related to Sunoco and do not cover most, if not all of the US Sunoco stations.

And as a further note, when Costco made the list and promoted it on every gas receipt, I was semi-shocked----it's not too difficult to imagine that they are beating out their competitors again!

 

@LDB:

Over in the world of Benz enthusiasts, Chevron is considered the ONLY fuel to use due to Techron or maybe the amount of Techron Chevron uses. Anyway, this is one of those topics which is so widespread that it's settled at least among that marque's faithful. I used to carry a bottle of Techron in my trunk for those 'emergencies' when I couldn't get Chevon fuel while traveling.

I regularly pay an extra $.20 to $.25 / gal premium for Chevron using it in all my bikes, cars and trucks based on my prejudice gained from being a Benz guy for a few years.

I'm curious if you can comment on whether this some sort of Marque Legend or fact. That is, is Chevon fuel significantly better than other first tier fuels such as Shell or Phillips 66?

 

LOL, when my buddy and I were young we got great sport from "blowing the coke out" of a car that we bought that was driven by old people who never floored it. This was his father's theory, that running it hard would blow the deposits out of the combustion chambers (which would actually reduce the CR, FWIW).

Then somebody said to take kerosene and detergent and pour it into the carb while throttled up pretty good. The engine would nearly die so you had to keep it revved up.

We were young and only had old junkers so it probably didn't hurt them, but sounds pretty stupid looking back at it.

I'm sure any noticed performance gains from this were simply from the placebo effect.

 

Bruze,

I've been using that technique since my first beat up '62 Chevy and later a '69 Z-28. I thought that's why highways had on ramps. Ask a friend to follow behind you when you floor the gas pedal and they will see all the burned off gunk coming out of the tailpipes. Especially if it hasn't been "cleaned" in a while.

Enjoy

 

What I would like is a list of top tier gas with clean restrooms. If you have stopped at a Buc'ees in Texas you will know what I mean. The big travel centers like Pilot and Loves don't make the good gas list?

 

The big boys really started focusing on additives for cleanliness in the 70’s. Chevron was one of the early leaders. They started calling theirs Techron at that time, and have stuck with that name even though the Techron of today is much different from the early Techron. In those early days, one brand would tend to be best with valves, another with injectors (actually most back then were still carburetors), another with piston crowns, etc. I’ve forgotten which areas Techron was best at keeping clean, but even back then, it was never best in all areas. That variation in different additives being best in different parts of the engine was where the lore got started about how you should shift among the brands rather than sticking with one particular brand. But as things have evolved, everybody has improved in all areas and the differences have narrowed. While I haven’t seen any actual engine test data since I retired 5 years ago, at that time, differences among the various top tier brands were not significant. They all kept all parts of the engine very clean. But even though the basic minimum EPA standard additives used by the cheapo brands had improved too, there was still a very substantial difference between top tier brands and EPA minimum standard that the cheapo brands use. My take is that you should assume all the top tier guys are pretty much equivalent. Further, while it can’t hurt anything, I’d say the value of the old strategy to rotate among the top brands no longer gives you much if any added value. For my own cars, I stick with my old company’s brand (which is one of the top tier brands), and never use any extra additives.

 

You two guys are spot on! The product (gas/diesel), in many cases, comes down the pipeline from the refinery and is then mixed with the end-sellers additives. If you go by a tank farm you will notice several "top tier" branded trucks filling up...giving the impression that gas is gas. It is not.
As for Costco...I suspect they buy gas on a contract in the selling area. Costco gas in Phoenix may not be the same "brand" sold in Philly. Nor would it necessarily be the same brand six months down the road.
Just sayin...

 

Techron is what's used in Chevron gasoline to prevent carbon build up. It works. If you've been using non-top-tier fuel for years, it might take several bottles over several tanks to clean things up, but it does work. It's not meant to be a one time fixit when you have a problem. It's designed to PREVENT problems. But it can fix them too, just realize it will probably take more than one bottle to do so.

 

I wouldn't.

I use Top Tier only. That means Quick Trip's "Guaranteed Gas" around here. No Chevrons, Shells, or Texaco's nearby.

I've seen what happens to cars as they age on cheap fuel. It's bad. Even back in the 80's when you had vehicles still using carbs, mechanics were recommending Chevron because of their additives.

 

I do a WOT to about 130 once a month to blow the crap off the spark plugs also..

 

I'm not an engineer or a chemist, just an operator with over 35 years making fuels...

(LBD; thanks for your sharing and posting. Appreciate your perspective and expertise!)

I'm not familiar with Euro diesel, but the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) is <10PPM sulphur [most is <5PPM], much lower than pre-ULSD, was - come to find out - was a good lubricant (sulfur), as lead was discovered to be in old gasoline (discovered hard way). I also believe the cetane is lower, because basically it's a lighter stock (lower boiler range - or distillation range/lower end point), among other emission specs. The higher BTU in older diesel was largely due to it being a heavier base stock - think towards bunker oil. It now has a smaller tail (on the end of the distillation range), so it is a lighter product (closer to jet fuel). I don't think the lower aromatic specs directly affect the cetane, but perhaps the component that has a higher volume of them was reduced, thus decreasing the energy - or BTU value. I know the viscosity (resistance to flow) and flash point (temperature at which it gives off fumes that CAN be ignited [as opposed to the auto-ignition temperature] is much lower now (thinner/lighter stuff).

Regarding Techron, an article a few years ago (that I cannot currently locate), talked about 2-cycle outboard engines failing from lack of lubrication. It turned out (seemed extremely legit at the time - cannot find now) that the East Bay Regional Park District rental boats used Chevron fuel. The Techron did such a good job at carbon/oil removal the park had to stop using Chevron, LOL. I cannot remember if the 2-cycle boat engines used oil mixed in fuel, or oil injected lube. But in either case, the Techron did what it was suppose to, to a fault. After replacing the engines and not using Chevron, they didn't have any more problems.

Tidbit; Chevron used to put more Techron in it's premium grade, but has stopped that practice (the Techron emblem on the premium pump was even larger, indicating a larger percentage).

Tidbit; If Premium and mid grades are available, but regular isn't - buy the mid grade. It will be premium (as the mid level is mixed at the pump, and there isn't any regular to mix it with).

Chevron used to fight - successfully in court - every lawsuit that ever came against its claims of being the best, or the cleanest fuel. I lost my contact at CRC, so that's old info and I do not kow if they continue that but I seriously doubt it; FWIW.

I know Chevron products are made well within specs - always having some giveaway (lost profit) to ensure they pass all lab analysis. You don't make money by reprocessing products, and many labs that certify the finals often do not match other labs - our plant labs or even our certified main refinery lab. So it's imperative to process feed stock once, as reprocessing and interruptions in deliveries cause problems and lost contracts. And with todays refiners having to deal with emission stuff, spare tank capacity is a luxury and not an option. Screw up 100,000 barrels of MOGAS, and that causes problems...

TMI here, but....High end jet fuels - like Euro JP-8's, and even better (proprietary blends with a special anti-oxidant), have the stabilizer injected in the product PRIOR to it ever seeing any oxygen. I mention this only because when we consumers add stabilizer, the fuel has already been oxidized to a level that stabilizer cannot work as well as it could, had that been injected like the military jet fuels...however I imagine it still helps (fresh gas only).

More info about E10, and non-E fuels, and myths busted, and engine problems (might apply to some Vette owners that drive very little, or only during summer):
Myths about Ethanol, or E10 fuel http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/...er/ethanol.asp
Ethanol Problems
http://www.iboats.com/basics/ethanol_fuels.html


Both very respected sources...

 

Diesel is a bit off topic for this thread, but I guess if we can discuss ethanol we can touch on diesel. The main driving force in lower US diesel cetane spec is ironically enough, the huge demand for gasoline in the US, and to a less important but nontrivial extent, the low demand for residual fuels in the US. Those two factors mean that US refineries have way more cat crackers and cokers than the rest of the world. Unfortunately for diesel, while they make good gasoline and make residual fuel go away, those two processes make very low quality diesel. Fully explaining the above would make a very long post, and I doubt you’d be all that interested in it anyway. The main point for the general audience is that lower US diesel quality is not some conspiracy or sloppy operation in the US. It has simply ended up that way as a result of our huge appetite for gasoline and our regulations against residual fuels. Diesel quality could be boosted back up even with all the US cat crackers and cokers, but not for free.

 

Clean restrooms are few and far between. Is Buc'ees the one I've read about that has the elegant restrooms, something like the ones you find in casinos?

 

Getting way off topic here, but it's interesting nevertheless: As probably most of your know, some rocket engines use kerosene as a fuel. This is true both in the US and Russia, and probably other countries now. Russian kerosene is far superior to American kerosene, primarily because of the ground source.