What's Happening With This Corvette ZR1 Turbo Setup?
08-19-2015, 12:50 PM
#21
Will it be using ProEFI on this round of mods or the E67?
08-21-2015, 10:19 AM
#23
Racer
Looking forward to seeing what this setup can do. I had a couple of questions about how they work though.
Because the blower is directly connected to the engine, it's flow rate is fixed. TVS 2300 naturally does 2.3L of air per revolution so spin accordingly whether it's 29k or 16k. How is it bypassed once the turbo gets spooling and takes over the overall airflow being pushed into the engine? I know there's a small bypass valve internal to the blower but the passage is pretty small (maybe 1-2" diam?).
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
I'm excited about the tech in what makes this work and love to see new options for us ZR owners
Because the blower is directly connected to the engine, it's flow rate is fixed. TVS 2300 naturally does 2.3L of air per revolution so spin accordingly whether it's 29k or 16k. How is it bypassed once the turbo gets spooling and takes over the overall airflow being pushed into the engine? I know there's a small bypass valve internal to the blower but the passage is pretty small (maybe 1-2" diam?).
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
I'm excited about the tech in what makes this work and love to see new options for us ZR owners
08-21-2015, 10:47 AM
#24
Drifting
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
This thing is going to be a time bomb HA!
Sure hope the BOV work well HA!
08-21-2015, 11:00 AM
#25
Looking forward to seeing what this setup can do. I had a couple of questions about how they work though.
Because the blower is directly connected to the engine, it's flow rate is fixed. TVS 2300 naturally does 2.3L of air per revolution so spin accordingly whether it's 29k or 16k. How is it bypassed once the turbo gets spooling and takes over the overall airflow being pushed into the engine? I know there's a small bypass valve internal to the blower but the passage is pretty small (maybe 1-2" diam?).
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
I'm excited about the tech in what makes this work and love to see new options for us ZR owners
Because the blower is directly connected to the engine, it's flow rate is fixed. TVS 2300 naturally does 2.3L of air per revolution so spin accordingly whether it's 29k or 16k. How is it bypassed once the turbo gets spooling and takes over the overall airflow being pushed into the engine? I know there's a small bypass valve internal to the blower but the passage is pretty small (maybe 1-2" diam?).
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
I'm excited about the tech in what makes this work and love to see new options for us ZR owners
Yes it theoretically can move 2.3L of air but changes to the system and spinning it faster increase the rate at which it can move air. For example stock it makes 520 whp roughly. And blower only before we added the turbo the car was making just shy on 900 whp on blower only. So it has slot of potential for moving air into the motor.
With it being force fed pre compressed air now its acting like a 2 stage air compressor for example. Not to mention temps come into play. The colder it is the more volume the more dense the air is. denser pre compressed air being force fed into the blower we expect to see very large gains over what the blower is capable of on its own.
08-21-2015, 01:04 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
Looking forward to seeing what this setup can do. I had a couple of questions about how they work though.
Because the blower is directly connected to the engine, it's flow rate is fixed. TVS 2300 naturally does 2.3L of air per revolution so spin accordingly whether it's 29k or 16k. How is it bypassed once the turbo gets spooling and takes over the overall airflow being pushed into the engine? I know there's a small bypass valve internal to the blower but the passage is pretty small (maybe 1-2" diam?).
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
I'm excited about the tech in what makes this work and love to see new options for us ZR owners
Because the blower is directly connected to the engine, it's flow rate is fixed. TVS 2300 naturally does 2.3L of air per revolution so spin accordingly whether it's 29k or 16k. How is it bypassed once the turbo gets spooling and takes over the overall airflow being pushed into the engine? I know there's a small bypass valve internal to the blower but the passage is pretty small (maybe 1-2" diam?).
If there's no bypass, wouldn't the blower become a huge restriction for the turbo? Even is there's positive pressure before the blower (supplied by the turbo) the screws still won't move more than 2.3L of air per rotation. I supposed the turbo would offset the parasitic loss of HP it takes to turn the blower (50-100HP?) but I wouldn't think it would justify the cost for just a 100HP gain.
I'm excited about the tech in what makes this work and love to see new options for us ZR owners
Same for the blower in this car. It has a fixed volume or "output" of air per revolution. That volume can be filled with air at NA pressure or it can be filled with compressed air, as from a turbocharger in this application.
Maybe I'm off, and people feel free to correct me, but that's how this setup would work in my mind.
08-21-2015, 01:31 PM
#27
Drifting
Not in my mind... assuming I understand the configuration of this car correctly, with the turbochargers inline ahead of the blower. Think about this: a typical piston engine has a fixed displacement, for example 6.2L. So the best it can do is move 6.2L of "air" per cycle, right? No! 6.2L is only a volume of the sweeping pistons for each cycle of the engine. For a NA engine, that volume would contain air at atmospheric pressure (actually lower than atmospheric pressure due to the air filter, throttle plate and other restrictions). Or with forced induction, it can contain air at higher pressures, which would essentially increase the displacement (volume) of the engine.
Same for the blower in this car. It has a fixed volume or "output" of air per revolution. That volume can be filled with air at NA pressure or it can be filled with compressed air, as from a turbocharger in this application.
Maybe I'm off, and people feel free to correct me, but that's how this setup would work in my mind.
Same for the blower in this car. It has a fixed volume or "output" of air per revolution. That volume can be filled with air at NA pressure or it can be filled with compressed air, as from a turbocharger in this application.
Maybe I'm off, and people feel free to correct me, but that's how this setup would work in my mind.
Yes, I agree with you. Let's call it static volume = 2.3L while realized volume will be much higher.
08-24-2015, 11:14 AM
#28
Racer
The 2.3L of air per revolution is fixed. To get more air mass you can either spin it faster or increase the pressure (Boyle's Law). If it's not running a bypass a dual-stage compressor makes perfect sense now and could easily net 25+psi if the motor could handle it. It's also a lot more air than a TVS2300 can move on its own at the max 29k spin rate.
Ace32x, so assuming you'll be running at least 20psi at the motor (maybe 30?), the temps have to be through the roof. D3 was seeing over 300 degrees pre-bricks on a stock car on their initial testing of their cooling kit. I think I remember something about a 10 gallon ice tank, but no additional intercoolers for the blower or turbo. Even with ice cold bricks, I wonder if they can hold up to the additional airflow and the 400+ degrees they'll likely see.
So why go with a dual-stage system rather than yank the TVS and go with a large turbo/centrifugal supercharger with massive air-air or maybe a better water-air intercooler that's larger than the two OEM bricks? ATI Procharger yanked the OEM blower on the C7Z06, fabbed a sheet metal intake, and used one of their larger centrifugal units. They claim at the same boost (10ish) and no tuning, it picked up over 100WHP because of the increased efficiency (less heat). I know it wouldn't have the crazy torque down low, but do you really need 1000+lb.ft below 4000 rpm? It would still be a 1/2 mile or full mile monster. You definitely get more cool points for a dual system though.
Ace32x, so assuming you'll be running at least 20psi at the motor (maybe 30?), the temps have to be through the roof. D3 was seeing over 300 degrees pre-bricks on a stock car on their initial testing of their cooling kit. I think I remember something about a 10 gallon ice tank, but no additional intercoolers for the blower or turbo. Even with ice cold bricks, I wonder if they can hold up to the additional airflow and the 400+ degrees they'll likely see.
So why go with a dual-stage system rather than yank the TVS and go with a large turbo/centrifugal supercharger with massive air-air or maybe a better water-air intercooler that's larger than the two OEM bricks? ATI Procharger yanked the OEM blower on the C7Z06, fabbed a sheet metal intake, and used one of their larger centrifugal units. They claim at the same boost (10ish) and no tuning, it picked up over 100WHP because of the increased efficiency (less heat). I know it wouldn't have the crazy torque down low, but do you really need 1000+lb.ft below 4000 rpm? It would still be a 1/2 mile or full mile monster. You definitely get more cool points for a dual system though.
08-24-2015, 05:38 PM
#29
The 2.3L of air per revolution is fixed. To get more air mass you can either spin it faster or increase the pressure (Boyle's Law). If it's not running a bypass a dual-stage compressor makes perfect sense now and could easily net 25+psi if the motor could handle it. It's also a lot more air than a TVS2300 can move on its own at the max 29k spin rate.
Ace32x, so assuming you'll be running at least 20psi at the motor (maybe 30?), the temps have to be through the roof. D3 was seeing over 300 degrees pre-bricks on a stock car on their initial testing of their cooling kit. I think I remember something about a 10 gallon ice tank, but no additional intercoolers for the blower or turbo. Even with ice cold bricks, I wonder if they can hold up to the additional airflow and the 400+ degrees they'll likely see.
So why go with a dual-stage system rather than yank the TVS and go with a large turbo/centrifugal supercharger with massive air-air or maybe a better water-air intercooler that's larger than the two OEM bricks? ATI Procharger yanked the OEM blower on the C7Z06, fabbed a sheet metal intake, and used one of their larger centrifugal units. They claim at the same boost (10ish) and no tuning, it picked up over 100WHP because of the increased efficiency (less heat). I know it wouldn't have the crazy torque down low, but do you really need 1000+lb.ft below 4000 rpm? It would still be a 1/2 mile or full mile monster. You definitely get more cool points for a dual system though.
Ace32x, so assuming you'll be running at least 20psi at the motor (maybe 30?), the temps have to be through the roof. D3 was seeing over 300 degrees pre-bricks on a stock car on their initial testing of their cooling kit. I think I remember something about a 10 gallon ice tank, but no additional intercoolers for the blower or turbo. Even with ice cold bricks, I wonder if they can hold up to the additional airflow and the 400+ degrees they'll likely see.
So why go with a dual-stage system rather than yank the TVS and go with a large turbo/centrifugal supercharger with massive air-air or maybe a better water-air intercooler that's larger than the two OEM bricks? ATI Procharger yanked the OEM blower on the C7Z06, fabbed a sheet metal intake, and used one of their larger centrifugal units. They claim at the same boost (10ish) and no tuning, it picked up over 100WHP because of the increased efficiency (less heat). I know it wouldn't have the crazy torque down low, but do you really need 1000+lb.ft below 4000 rpm? It would still be a 1/2 mile or full mile monster. You definitely get more cool points for a dual system though.
from the blower we will only be seeing 10 psi or so, will barely be turning faster than stock. those temps were also on the stock cooling system so its not really an apples to apples comparison.
i had the d3 heat ex kit on the car when it was blower only and we will be reusing the front heat exchanger from that but deleted the reservoirs that were part of it up front in the bumper.
the new system will plumb from the intercoolers in the blower to the heat exchanger mounted up front, back to the rear mount ice chest (10 gallon capacity) into the stewart pump mounted below the ice chest and back up into the intercoolers to start the cycle over.
the iat2 tempatures post intercooler (in the runner going into the head) before at 24k blower rpm which was roughly 15 lbs of boost was never more than 20 degrees over the ambient starting tempature on a full halfmile run. so in a 95 degree ambient run the car would stay below 120 degree intake air tempature. with the new pulley set up it puts the blower rpm around 16,000 which is well within the effecieny range. we dont expect the air coming off the turbo to be that much hotter than ambient after it runs through the charge pipping down each side of the sideskirts before it enters the blower, but as it is the first one we will find out how it responds. We can always add downstream injectors and spray a little methanol or ethanol for additional cooling if needed before adding the weight of another cooler somewhere.
couple reasons i didnt yank the blower, i didnt want to cough up the 4500 in a billet or sheet metal manifold to handle the power we are trying to push and have to convert all the drive accessories over to ls7/ls3. Another being i do like the down low punch of the SC as it gets me out early where alot of these other big cars are still spooling and getting moving. back when the car was blower and nitrous i was trapping in the 180s but it was getting out so hard so early that it was beating cars trapping in the upper 190s in the roll races. And it just sounded interesting and i wanted to see if we could get it working since no one else has done one yet.
08-25-2015, 12:59 AM
#30
Racer
from the blower we will only be seeing 10 psi or so, will barely be turning faster than stock. those temps were also on the stock cooling system so its not really an apples to apples comparison.
i had the d3 heat ex kit on the car when it was blower only and we will be reusing the front heat exchanger from that but deleted the reservoirs that were part of it up front in the bumper.
the new system will plumb from the intercoolers in the blower to the heat exchanger mounted up front, back to the rear mount ice chest (10 gallon capacity) into the stewart pump mounted below the ice chest and back up into the intercoolers to start the cycle over.
the iat2 tempatures post intercooler (in the runner going into the head) before at 24k blower rpm which was roughly 15 lbs of boost was never more than 20 degrees over the ambient starting tempature on a full halfmile run. so in a 95 degree ambient run the car would stay below 120 degree intake air tempature. with the new pulley set up it puts the blower rpm around 16,000 which is well within the effecieny range. we dont expect the air coming off the turbo to be that much hotter than ambient after it runs through the charge pipping down each side of the sideskirts before it enters the blower, but as it is the first one we will find out how it responds. We can always add downstream injectors and spray a little methanol or ethanol for additional cooling if needed before adding the weight of another cooler somewhere.
couple reasons i didnt yank the blower, i didnt want to cough up the 4500 in a billet or sheet metal manifold to handle the power we are trying to push and have to convert all the drive accessories over to ls7/ls3. Another being i do like the down low punch of the SC as it gets me out early where alot of these other big cars are still spooling and getting moving. back when the car was blower and nitrous i was trapping in the 180s but it was getting out so hard so early that it was beating cars trapping in the upper 190s in the roll races. And it just sounded interesting and i wanted to see if we could get it working since no one else has done one yet.
i had the d3 heat ex kit on the car when it was blower only and we will be reusing the front heat exchanger from that but deleted the reservoirs that were part of it up front in the bumper.
the new system will plumb from the intercoolers in the blower to the heat exchanger mounted up front, back to the rear mount ice chest (10 gallon capacity) into the stewart pump mounted below the ice chest and back up into the intercoolers to start the cycle over.
the iat2 tempatures post intercooler (in the runner going into the head) before at 24k blower rpm which was roughly 15 lbs of boost was never more than 20 degrees over the ambient starting tempature on a full halfmile run. so in a 95 degree ambient run the car would stay below 120 degree intake air tempature. with the new pulley set up it puts the blower rpm around 16,000 which is well within the effecieny range. we dont expect the air coming off the turbo to be that much hotter than ambient after it runs through the charge pipping down each side of the sideskirts before it enters the blower, but as it is the first one we will find out how it responds. We can always add downstream injectors and spray a little methanol or ethanol for additional cooling if needed before adding the weight of another cooler somewhere.
couple reasons i didnt yank the blower, i didnt want to cough up the 4500 in a billet or sheet metal manifold to handle the power we are trying to push and have to convert all the drive accessories over to ls7/ls3. Another being i do like the down low punch of the SC as it gets me out early where alot of these other big cars are still spooling and getting moving. back when the car was blower and nitrous i was trapping in the 180s but it was getting out so hard so early that it was beating cars trapping in the upper 190s in the roll races. And it just sounded interesting and i wanted to see if we could get it working since no one else has done one yet.
Man, I had no idea a fabbed intake could cost that much. I guess you could run a FAST, but swapping to run LS3 accessories is probably too much of a pain to be worth it since nobody makes a bracket for a ZR1 to run a centrifugal blower. Now if somebody could fab a new lid to run external air-to-air intercoolers on the TVS.....
Well good luck with the new setup. I look forward to seeing how it turns out when it's finished.
08-29-2015, 02:55 PM
#32
It's on the ground finishing up the wiring for the proefi right now, and we're waiting on a new ring for the ati crank pulley that is shipping out Monday. It has an overdrive balancer on it right now and we're swapping the rings out to stock size to slow the blower down a little. We're targeting 10 lbs from the blower to assist the spool on the 88. Will also help keep the heat way day for iats
08-29-2015, 04:20 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
Cool!
It's on the ground finishing up the wiring for the proefi right now, and we're waiting on a new ring for the ati crank pulley that is shipping out Monday. It has an overdrive balancer on it right now and we're swapping the rings out to stock size to slow the blower down a little. We're targeting 10 lbs from the blower to assist the spool on the 88. Will also help keep the heat way day for iats
Your breaking new ground!
08-29-2015, 06:29 PM
#36
Posted above. Waiting on a smaller crank ring from ati for the balancer (currently has over drive ring) and wrapping up the wiring. Ring ships Monday. Hoping to have it fired up by Wednesday ish
09-02-2015, 10:49 AM
#37
Ace, looks like it's really coming along. 
Still think you could / should squeeze a nice garrett chargecooler in there where you join the feeds together. But I'm sure you have this covered already!
Also let might have a bit more info on the bypass valve. I'm sure your ECM can control it and it will give you LOT of option when on boost.
Still think you could / should squeeze a nice garrett chargecooler in there where you join the feeds together. But I'm sure you have this covered already!
Also let might have a bit more info on the bypass valve. I'm sure your ECM can control it and it will give you LOT of option when on boost.
09-21-2015, 07:49 PM
#38
Instructor
It's been a few weeks. What's going on with the car? Is it running yet? I am very curious. I hope it turns out great. The Hellcat X with 805hp gained the extra hp from twin turbos being added to the supercharged motor. When I heard that I thought that I was disappointed with the small gain from all that work and money for a TT system. I thought it would have much greater gains. I'm sure there's more potential but I thought of you when I saw that article and hoped your results were much better.
09-22-2015, 01:36 AM
#39
It's been a few weeks. What's going on with the car? Is it running yet? I am very curious. I hope it turns out great. The Hellcat X with 805hp gained the extra hp from twin turbos being added to the supercharged motor. When I heard that I thought that I was disappointed with the small gain from all that work and money for a TT system. I thought it would have much greater gains. I'm sure there's more potential but I thought of you when I saw that article and hoped your results were much better.
09-25-2015, 10:50 PM
#40
Instructor
Can't wait. I hope it works great. I am interested to hear what it sounds like.