Fuel storage additives …….
10-12-2015, 11:14 PM
#21
Team Owner
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LBD, front and center with the your expert advice please. I was always under the impression that the high octane blend had additives added as my friend had mentioned. I read where some guy's use an additive and others don't. As I mentioned in the above post, I use it during the winter months. If I could find proof that it's just a waste of money then I would discontinue using it.
10-13-2015, 06:34 AM
#22
Drifting
I’m flattered to be asked by name, albeit a bit jumbled on spelling. I’m out of pocket this week so am not checking here regularly. The only credible reason to use stabilizer is long term winter storage, and even there, it is insurance, not a requirement. As many have reported, you can usually get by without it even then. The problem is that sometimes, gas gets saturated with dissolved water during transportation (pipelines, barges, storage tanks). Usually this doesn’t happen, and even if it does, you still don’t necessarily have a problem. A second thing must happen. The second thing is that the temperature must get considerably lower than it was in the gas station’s underground storage tank. If those two things happen (you are unlucky enough to get gas that is saturated and then the temperature drops), then a water layer will separate. This can happen both with and without ethanol, the only difference being that with ethanol the problem is slightly worse because there will be more water. Stabilizers prevent the water layer from forming. That function is not built into any gas, not too tier, not premium, not “pure” gas, not any of them. So if you want the insurance of protection against water separation if you have the double bad luck of saturated gas and big temperature drop, you need stabilizer. If you do go this route, and if you use gas with ethanol, one other thing is needed. You must not use a stabilizer based on IPA. They won’t give water protection if ethanol is present. I think SeaFoam is IPA, but I could be wrong. Just look at the list of active ingredients and don’t use one that is IPA based if your gas has ethanol.
Other reasons for using stabilizer are not credible, especially if you use top tier. The additive packages in top tier give all the protection you need for injectors, other deposits, lubricity, and the laundry list of other stuff claimed by stabilizer ads. There is no fundamental difference in stability of regular versus premium, so that isn’t an issue either. Hope that helps.
Other reasons for using stabilizer are not credible, especially if you use top tier. The additive packages in top tier give all the protection you need for injectors, other deposits, lubricity, and the laundry list of other stuff claimed by stabilizer ads. There is no fundamental difference in stability of regular versus premium, so that isn’t an issue either. Hope that helps.
Last edited by LDB; 10-13-2015 at 06:39 AM.
10-13-2015, 07:56 AM
#23
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Billy, I suspect 'way back when' was before Ethanol blended fuels, I for one have seen the effects of long term storage of said fuels in various two stroke motors, not pretty.
10-13-2015, 10:03 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
What is considered long term before gas starts to go bad? Seems like 4-5 months is not long term for modern day gas.
10-13-2015, 10:15 AM
#25
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2021 C6 of the Year Finalist - Modified
I had a Pontiac Trans Am (LS1) years ago that sat for 2 years without starting while I was in Korea.
Never even added Sta-Bil to the gas. Fired right up without a problem.
The only problem with the car after not being driven in 2 years was the horribly flat-spotted tires (thump thump thump) ... however, that resolved itself after about 75 miles of driving.
Never even added Sta-Bil to the gas. Fired right up without a problem.
The only problem with the car after not being driven in 2 years was the horribly flat-spotted tires (thump thump thump) ... however, that resolved itself after about 75 miles of driving.
10-13-2015, 10:27 AM
#27
Team Owner
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My father's lawnmower wouldn't start one spring -- probably 45 years ago, long before ethanol.
The gas had gummed up in the carb. This was a somewhat common problem, although I've stored motorcycles, chainsaws, etc. without stabilizers and didn't have a problem.
But I don't need the hassle anymore so I do use Sta-Bil for the long winter sleep.
The gas had gummed up in the carb. This was a somewhat common problem, although I've stored motorcycles, chainsaws, etc. without stabilizers and didn't have a problem.
But I don't need the hassle anymore so I do use Sta-Bil for the long winter sleep.
10-13-2015, 10:36 AM
#28
Racer
Jay Leno is a guy with a lot of experience with a car collection. In an article in Autoweek, he points out that ethanol is present in modern gas all across the country. He also explains why modern cars seem to be less effected, because hoses and equipment are designed to resist ethanol corrosion.
Ethanol absorbs water from the air, the modern fuel systems don't allow air into the fuel system. Put modern gas in an old car, and Leno says the gas only lasts for about a month because of the air contamination.
So for older cars, modern gas remains a problem, and he still recommend fuel stabilizer for storage.
I thought this was an informative article, here's a link to it:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-life...-hates-ethanol
Ethanol absorbs water from the air, the modern fuel systems don't allow air into the fuel system. Put modern gas in an old car, and Leno says the gas only lasts for about a month because of the air contamination.
So for older cars, modern gas remains a problem, and he still recommend fuel stabilizer for storage.
I thought this was an informative article, here's a link to it:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-life...-hates-ethanol
10-13-2015, 05:21 PM
#29
Jay Leno is a guy with a lot of experience with a car collection. In an article in Autoweek, he points out that ethanol is present in modern gas all across the country. He also explains why modern cars seem to be less effected, because hoses and equipment are designed to resist ethanol corrosion.
Ethanol absorbs water from the air, the modern fuel systems don't allow air into the fuel system. Put modern gas in an old car, and Leno says the gas only lasts for about a month because of the air contamination.
So for older cars, modern gas remains a problem, and he still recommend fuel stabilizer for storage.
I thought this was an informative article, here's a link to it:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-life...-hates-ethanol
Ethanol absorbs water from the air, the modern fuel systems don't allow air into the fuel system. Put modern gas in an old car, and Leno says the gas only lasts for about a month because of the air contamination.
So for older cars, modern gas remains a problem, and he still recommend fuel stabilizer for storage.
I thought this was an informative article, here's a link to it:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-life...-hates-ethanol
10-14-2015, 11:08 PM
#30
Safety Car
Thread Starter
here's another article FWIW …….
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...ur-carburetor/
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10-14-2015, 11:22 PM
#31
Race Director
Member Since: Feb 2011
Location: Cold Hell, Minnesota...for now
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St. Jude Donor '15-'16-'17-‘18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'24
I've never had an issue in all of the decades I've used Seafoam to store motorcycles, snowmobiles, mowers, wackers, saws, cars, boats...everything in its off-season.
10-14-2015, 11:46 PM
#32
Racer
I suspect the 'exact' amount of time varies with respect to atmospheric conditions, actual percentage of ethanol in the fuel, etc.
here's another article FWIW …….
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...ur-carburetor/
here's another article FWIW …….
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...ur-carburetor/
10-16-2015, 12:37 PM
#34
Drifting
I’m back in town and at least somewhat surprised to see this one still semi-alive from 6:30 last night. On the Jay Leno link from post #28, I’ll grant you that ethanol can attack certain materials in antique cars, but that’s hardly a problem for Vettes. The notion of ethanol attracting water in that link and in the reference in post #30 by some sort of magic tank breathing is just silly. Jay is misinformed on that aspect, and of course the reference in post #30 is from a company that makes and sells stabilizer, so doesn’t have much credibility.
Even if your tank is nearly empty, it only holds about 0.2 pounds of air, which even at high humidity on a hot day, only holds about 0.1 ounce of water vapor. And to get even that tiny amount of water vapor into your gas requires a comically unlikely sequence of events. The ethanol doesn’t suck the water vapor up like a vacuum, it has to condense into a liquid first, and how does it do that? It requires a very unlikely sequence of events involving repeated cool downs repeated dozens of times to even approach getting 1 ounce, and the first few ounces will dissolve into the gas anyway, without forming a water layer.
The sources of the water that I mentioned back in post #22 are a variety of operating problems such as tank roofs leaking, barges being washed out and then not fully drained before adding another shipment, pipeline washes, and other things that shouldn’t happen but sometimes do. Through those mistakes, the gas gets saturated with as much dissolved water as it can hold. Then if the temperature drops from long term winter storage, you might be in trouble. So I’ll stand by post #22 with no modifications (other than the antique car ethanol corrosion issue) from the other references. If you’re going to store your car for the winter, though you will usually be ok even then without stabilizer, stabilizer does give you insurance against having been unlucky and gotten a last tank of gas with dissolved water. Other than that, stabilizer is a waste of money.
Even if your tank is nearly empty, it only holds about 0.2 pounds of air, which even at high humidity on a hot day, only holds about 0.1 ounce of water vapor. And to get even that tiny amount of water vapor into your gas requires a comically unlikely sequence of events. The ethanol doesn’t suck the water vapor up like a vacuum, it has to condense into a liquid first, and how does it do that? It requires a very unlikely sequence of events involving repeated cool downs repeated dozens of times to even approach getting 1 ounce, and the first few ounces will dissolve into the gas anyway, without forming a water layer.
The sources of the water that I mentioned back in post #22 are a variety of operating problems such as tank roofs leaking, barges being washed out and then not fully drained before adding another shipment, pipeline washes, and other things that shouldn’t happen but sometimes do. Through those mistakes, the gas gets saturated with as much dissolved water as it can hold. Then if the temperature drops from long term winter storage, you might be in trouble. So I’ll stand by post #22 with no modifications (other than the antique car ethanol corrosion issue) from the other references. If you’re going to store your car for the winter, though you will usually be ok even then without stabilizer, stabilizer does give you insurance against having been unlucky and gotten a last tank of gas with dissolved water. Other than that, stabilizer is a waste of money.