Winter storage
09-22-2017, 09:48 AM
#41
Drifting
09-22-2017, 09:58 AM
#42
Drifting
To all those who start your cars during the winter for any reason other than to drive it somewhere... You are hurting your car. We all know by now that the hardest thing an engine has to go through is startup. Everything is cold. Even in summer! Engines work the best when they are hot, when the oil is hot, when the coolant is up to temp. So why would anyone start their car just to start it? It doesn't just do no good. It actually hurts your car. So you took all the time and care to wash it, wax it, clean it, cover it, etc. but then you punish it by starting it? Do you also like being woke up in the middle of a wonderful deep sleep by a spider crawling on your face? Leave your car alone until the spring. It will be just fine - I promise!
09-22-2017, 10:06 AM
#43
Race Director
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Question to all you folks putting rags/screens/covers over exhaust pipes:
Are you afraid a "critter" is going to crawl up there and peepee on a piston?
Are you afraid a "critter" is going to crawl up there and peepee on a piston?
Last edited by ruxvette; 09-22-2017 at 10:07 AM.
09-22-2017, 10:46 AM
#44
Drifting
No. But can you imagine the smell of a dead critter up near the headers, up there all winter? Plastic bags are free. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
09-22-2017, 11:40 AM
#45
09-22-2017, 12:08 PM
#46
Instructor
It's my understanding that many of the additives used in the fuels are the first thing to dissipate, including octane boosters. I've put gas from my old boat that was sitting for 4 years in my Town Car and it ran fine, but I wouldn't have put it in my Vette. I would put Stabil in my Vette if I was to store it.
09-22-2017, 12:17 PM
#47
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rvsullivan (09-27-2017)
09-22-2017, 12:38 PM
#48
Le Mans Master
One if the "additives" in your fuel is ethanol. Ethanol is alcohol based. Alcohol absorbs moisture from the atmosphere, which increases the chances for corrosion and other damage to the fuel system.
If you don't want to use a stabilizer, fine. Many people do not, and have no problems. Many people store their cars without a battery tender, and have no problems. It's all up to you, but to make a blanket statement like you did is a bit of a stretch.
Many of the additives in today's fuel are NOT there to help your vehicle. They are there to satisfy EPA regulations, OR to undo harm that the EPA-required additives do to your vehicle. Example: Top Tier gas has more cleansing-agents in the fuel because the many of the other fuel additives are actually mucking up your engine.
Last edited by buckmeister2; 09-22-2017 at 12:39 PM.
09-22-2017, 01:57 PM
#49
Sounds like you have made up your mind to store the car and I get that. Assuming you will not have snow and ice on the ground all winter a soft drive on sunny days will do the Corvette good.
09-22-2017, 02:50 PM
#50
Drifting
Stabilizer is usually not needed, but it functions as an insurance policy. Whether you want the insurance is your choice. The problem is not ethanol, tank breathing, “old” or “stale” gas, or any of the other things mentioned in this thread so far. Those things are simply not problems. The problem is that while gas is usually dry, it can sometimes pick up some dissolved water. That can happen both with and without ethanol. The only minor impact of ethanol is that it can pick up a bit more with ethanol, but even “pure” gas can pick up enough to be a problem. Source of the water can be leaky storage tanks roofs, barges or tankers with wash water still in the bilge when loaded, or a variety of other operational screwups. If you are unlucky and your last batch of gas has dissolved water, then you have a problem. As the winter temp drops and the gas tank thus gets cold, less water will stay dissolved in the gas, so it starts dropping out as a water layer. Stabilizer prevents that. If you don’t have dissolved water, then like paying for insurance when no disasters happen, your money appears to have been wasted. That’s why so many say they have stored cars for years without stabilizer and never had a problem. They’ve simply never had the bad luck to get a last batch of gas with dissolved water. And one last caveat, if your gas contains ethanol, do not use an IPA-based stabilizer like Seafoam. It will not prevent water dropout if ethanol is present. Since the only legitimate reason to use stabilizer is insurance against water drop out if you’re unlucky enough to have dissolved water, then it obviously makes no sense to use a stabilizer that will not address that problem. If your last few tanks of gas have been ethanol free, then Seafoam or other IPA-based stabilizers are fine.
And for heaven’s sake, as many have pointed out, do not start your car even one time over the winter unless you are going to run it long enough to get the oil temp up to at least 170. Exhaust gas contains a lot of water vapor, and piston blowby allows exhaust gas into the crankcase, which if cold, condenses some of the water vapor to liquid. Once liquid water is present, it combines with other compounds in the exhaust gas to form carboxylic acids. Getting the oil thoroughly hot (not just warm) drives off the water and hence the acids. You must actually drive the car to get the oil hot. Idling it in the garage won’t get the job done.
And for heaven’s sake, as many have pointed out, do not start your car even one time over the winter unless you are going to run it long enough to get the oil temp up to at least 170. Exhaust gas contains a lot of water vapor, and piston blowby allows exhaust gas into the crankcase, which if cold, condenses some of the water vapor to liquid. Once liquid water is present, it combines with other compounds in the exhaust gas to form carboxylic acids. Getting the oil thoroughly hot (not just warm) drives off the water and hence the acids. You must actually drive the car to get the oil hot. Idling it in the garage won’t get the job done.
09-22-2017, 02:53 PM
#51
- They leave the cars sitting outside with mostly empty gas tanks
- The cars get moved around or test driven for short trips with cold engines that usually never fully warm up.
- They hire low bidders to wash the cars (AKA: DISO or Dealer Installed Swirl Option).
This is all necessary to the nature of their business, but it's certainly not behavior that a responsible car enthusiast wants to emulate.
.
Last edited by dmk0210; 09-22-2017 at 02:55 PM.
09-22-2017, 03:05 PM
#52
Stabilizer is usually not needed, but it functions as an insurance policy. Whether you want the insurance is your choice. The problem is not ethanol, tank breathing, “old” or “stale” gas, or any of the other things mentioned in this thread so far. Those things are simply not problems. The problem is that while gas is usually dry, it can sometimes pick up some dissolved water. ...
Stabil's FAQs specifically mentions that they prevent varnish along with preventing the fuel from breaking down and creating corrosive components.
https://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools...nt-cheat-sheet
Storage fuel treatments—called fuel stabilizers—ensure that what goes into your tank remains intact and will not break down into corrosive components. Some stabilizers also help remove moisture from fuel so that water accumulation, corrosion and rust are kept to a minimum. The stabilizing effect is important because gas does go bad, and can even turn into varnish, in as little as 30 days.
Fuel stabilizers keep gas in an engine from going bad or “stale” by slowing down the oxidation process thus preventing this fuel from becoming varnish or “gumming up”.
Last edited by dmk0210; 09-22-2017 at 03:07 PM.
09-22-2017, 03:05 PM
#53
Stabilizer is usually not needed, but it functions as an insurance policy. Whether you want the insurance is your choice. The problem is not ethanol, tank breathing, “old” or “stale” gas, or any of the other things mentioned in this thread so far. Those things are simply not problems. The problem is that while gas is usually dry, it can sometimes pick up some dissolved water. That can happen both with and without ethanol. The only minor impact of ethanol is that it can pick up a bit more with ethanol, but even “pure” gas can pick up enough to be a problem. Source of the water can be leaky storage tanks roofs, barges or tankers with wash water still in the bilge when loaded, or a variety of other operational screwups. If you are unlucky and your last batch of gas has dissolved water, then you have a problem. As the winter temp drops and the gas tank thus gets cold, less water will stay dissolved in the gas, so it starts dropping out as a water layer. Stabilizer prevents that. If you don’t have dissolved water, then like paying for insurance when no disasters happen, your money appears to have been wasted. That’s why so many say they have stored cars for years without stabilizer and never had a problem. They’ve simply never had the bad luck to get a last batch of gas with dissolved water. And one last caveat, if your gas contains ethanol, do not use an IPA-based stabilizer like Seafoam. It will not prevent water dropout if ethanol is present. Since the only legitimate reason to use stabilizer is insurance against water drop out if you’re unlucky enough to have dissolved water, then it obviously makes no sense to use a stabilizer that will not address that problem. If your last few tanks of gas have been ethanol free, then Seafoam or other IPA-based stabilizers are fine.
And for heaven’s sake, as many have pointed out, do not start your car even one time over the winter unless you are going to run it long enough to get the oil temp up to at least 170. Exhaust gas contains a lot of water vapor, and piston blowby allows exhaust gas into the crankcase, which if cold, condenses some of the water vapor to liquid. Once liquid water is present, it combines with other compounds in the exhaust gas to form carboxylic acids. Getting the oil thoroughly hot (not just warm) drives off the water and hence the acids. You must actually drive the car to get the oil hot. Idling it in the garage won’t get the job done.
And for heaven’s sake, as many have pointed out, do not start your car even one time over the winter unless you are going to run it long enough to get the oil temp up to at least 170. Exhaust gas contains a lot of water vapor, and piston blowby allows exhaust gas into the crankcase, which if cold, condenses some of the water vapor to liquid. Once liquid water is present, it combines with other compounds in the exhaust gas to form carboxylic acids. Getting the oil thoroughly hot (not just warm) drives off the water and hence the acids. You must actually drive the car to get the oil hot. Idling it in the garage won’t get the job done.
09-22-2017, 03:41 PM
#54
Drifting
Varnish is mostly an oxidation problem. That used to be a pretty big problem but it pretty much a non-issue now as a result of three things changing. Biggest is the switch from carbs (with their float bowl vents with air exposure) to fuel injection (a sealed system). Next is way less breathing in the gas tank as it is now sealed except for vacuum-breaking through the charcoal canister. Last is better base additives in all gas, especially top tier. Varnish could still be an issue in small engines like chainsaws and lawn mowers that still use carbs and whose tanks aren’t all that well sealed.
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dmk0210 (09-26-2017)
09-22-2017, 03:45 PM
#55
Drifting
Most people gauge operating temp by coolant temp, and yes, because coolant has a thermostat that restricts water flow at low heat loads, the coolant will get hot even while just idling. But the temp that matters is oil temp to drive off the liquid water that has condensed into your oil from piston blowby vapors. Most cars don’t generate enough heat to get their oil hot while idling, especially in winter and/or with an oil cooler. But as long as you run it enough to get the oil hot, that indeed is enough.
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Carvin (10-18-2017)
09-26-2017, 08:01 AM
#57
He's a big proponent of fuel stabilizer and waterless coolant and has mentioned both many times. He also keeps every car I've seen on a battery tender.
09-26-2017, 08:05 AM
#58
Varnish is mostly an oxidation problem. That used to be a pretty big problem but it pretty much a non-issue now as a result of three things changing. Biggest is the switch from carbs (with their float bowl vents with air exposure) to fuel injection (a sealed system). Next is way less breathing in the gas tank as it is now sealed except for vacuum-breaking through the charcoal canister....
09-27-2017, 12:11 AM
#59
Intermediate
Great comments plus my 2 cents
There is a product called DampRid - it is a plastic bag looking thing with a built in hanger. It will collect moisture and you can actually see the water collect over time. It is great for areas than can get humid. Not expensive and I think we got ours at Wal-Mart or Target. HRP
09-27-2017, 07:40 AM
#60
There is a product called DampRid - it is a plastic bag looking thing with a built in hanger. It will collect moisture and you can actually see the water collect over time. It is great for areas than can get humid. Not expensive and I think we got ours at Wal-Mart or Target. HRP
I use those DampRid bags in my garage too. It's basically a chemical version of an electric dehumidifier.