355Spider

I am always stupified when someone says torque and/or horsepower does't matter because esentially they are the same thing. They are just mathematical representations of the same power. And yes more under the curve counts most.

PeterK

It is the "peak" torque is what I stated was meaningless number for acceleration and it is.

Peak HP has more meaning since it accounts for the RPM.

But of the dyno curve is of course the most telling. Modern ferraris tend to have very nice and flat torque curves that go into very high RPMs.

slwhite

This statement has so many errors in it, I would not even know where to start. Please refer to an approximate 400-posting thread on HP vs torque.

Verrückt

It's his choice. At many track venues in Europe, helmets are optional. I'd say many don't wear them.

With that said, I always do, but it comes down to if you value your head or not.

Hampi

...always remember the extra weight you carry around with a helmet

VY427

You got that right... an F40, especially one with straight pipes, sounds unbelievable. There's the beautiful and aggressive crescendo as the revs rise, and the cracks/pops on the over run just make me smile.

The F50, IMO, is the ultimate in sensory overload... the 12 cylinder sounds/thrust, the vibrations felt through the carbon tub, the exotic looks, the non power steering with tons of feel, an open top, the cool interior, the gated shifter and the awesome driving position/view over the fenders. It's a fantastic car and was chosen in a comparison test by EVO magazine over the ENZO, F40 and 288 GTO as the most desireable modern Ferrari supercar.

With that said, I think my C6 Z06 sounds pretty damn good. F40/F50 good? No, but damn good.

louieT

GREG O.

take the price difference in the ferrit and the vette and put that money into extras on the vette and you would probably have a 2000 hp. good ole reliable AMERICAN chevy muscle car that would make that ferrit have to spend thousands on new doors. remember USA, AMERICAN made. enough said about urapeein overpriced little cars.

phantasms

A friend of mine has an F50 with straight pipes. The only car that sounds sicker is the FXX.

I'll let you know which car is faster by the end of the summer. He also has an Enzo and is looking at F40's so we'll see what's up.

Cobra4B

^ Sweet shot!

Tat F-40LM video made me happy in the pants

Verrückt

Post of the day.

Cobra4B

I'm a pround American too, but he just doesn't get it... at the end of the day a 2000 hp vette is still a vette (which I'd love) but that doesn't make it better than a 900 hp Ferrari race car.

Verrückt

Plus the argument works both ways.

For the price of admission, a fox body Mustang or a *Gasp* Mazda Miata could be made faster in every performance sense than the Z06.

Does that make them better cars? Of course not.

VETTE_ESE

what does your friend do for a living?

i wish i was rich for one day and see how it feels not to worry about a damn thing

Tavarez

Awesome picture!

slwhite

After all that, forget about the reliability.

WallyWest

Incorrect. Horsepower represents work. Torque is a force. In terms of mathematics and physics these are two very different things. Specifically, work has a time component, force does not. If the horsepower and torque curve were representations of the same thing, they would look - duh - the same. They don't.

A dyno directly measures torque. The computer then calculates horsepower. For the purpose of most bench racing discussions like these what we're talking about is torque. When I get a dyno I tell them to leave off the horsepower curve, I really don't care about it. If I want to know I can calculate it myself.

CVT transmissions hold the engine at peak torque for the best acceleration. Why? Because peak torque is where the engine is producing the most force. Which makes it the point of strongest acceleration. For drag racing purposes torque is the only thing that matters. There are reasons you might actually want to see the horsepower curve, but I have yet to see a discussion that actually talks about those things. Acceleration is all about torque.

slwhite

Without repeating a huge discussion which has been done on previous HP vs torque threads, I pose a simple question. Have you ever heard of or seen torque/weight for a car being published or discussed? Yet you constantly see power/weight published and discussed and it has been for decades. The fact that you never see torque/weight being discussed should tell you that it is a meaningless measure.

Intimidator3

http://www.autofacts.ca/classics/fast.htm

WallyWest

Yes, the fact that people consistantly screw it up means so much.

F=ma

Acceleration is dependant on two things. Weight (or more accurately, mass) and force. HORSEPOWER IS NOT FORCE. You cannot plug horsepower into that equation. The F in F=ma is TORQUE.

Peak horsepower vs. weight is pointless. It tells you nothing. Get a physics degree if you want to argue about it some more.

And before you say it, yes there are two different things to consider here. Instantaneous acceleration, which is exactly defined with the above formula. Then there's average acceleration over the cars entire operating range. 0-60, 0-100, etc... Does horsepower help there? Not really, it just confuses things. Plenty of examples of cars with higher horsepower/weight ratios that will lose to cars that don't look as good. Why? Usually gearing, but that's not the only way it can be screwed up. If however you look at the area under the torque curve, create a nice pretty graph tracking torque at the wheels, and take into account weight, you have a good picture of how the car accelerates. Looking at horsepower is not necessary, or even desireable.