805Z06

Frenchian, sorry to hear about your incident..

I would suggest talking to several other corvette dealer / service departments and see if somebody is willing to give you some inside info on this matter.

Do header's typical void any engine failure?
What components void your warranty with headers?

I spoke with LG a few weeks ago and they said that headers do not void your warranty on the engine but everything behind (ask for the details)...maybe you can speak with them, they might give you some insight since they have dealt with so many customers ...

In the end..scrw it...katech will bring good fortune

Good Luck

allanlaw

After reading the actual text of the GM warranty (in your glovebox or at GM.com), then read this:

http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?ID=8124

Now you can continue to post in this thread . . .

Mako7

I am an attorney and I agree 100% here--headers and cats did not cause the problem. My FREE advice:

1. Do not move the car from the Dealer.

2. Inform the Dealer and GM in writing NOT to move the car or any parts, that you are engaging an attorney and an expert witness.

3. Negotiate a fair resolution from GM.
______________

If you had added a CAM, I can see the GM point, but as it stands, this is not right.

vette6799

How do you know what caused the failure?

The warranty states that mods may void the coverage. GM built a car with a drivetrain designed for 505 HP. Once you start making changes that increase HP, risk of failure starts increasing.

You are a business lawyer - the risk of failure and the cost of repair is built into the cost of the car and impacts bottom lines that are set up before a car is sold. Why would you expect a manufacturer to cover that which they cannot control and which increases the risk of failure? You say a cam should void the warranty but not headers. Don't headers increase power just as a cam does? Are you suggesting that there should be some arbitrary point that additional power is acceptable but beyond that the warranty goes? Where would you draw the line?

It is obvious that most cosmetic changes don't impact the drivetrain and have no impact upon warranty. As Foosh said earlier in his post, I wouldn't litigate this issue as I think you would lose. You want to play, you pay. That is why some of us don't do mods; I'd love to do a tune but don't want the risk of losing warranty coverage if something goes south.

Greg Gore

Changing ambient temperature, humidity and altitude changes horsepower too. There was no internal engine modifications here and the exhaust modifications absolutely did not cause this failure. The reason it failed is because there was an internal problem with this engine and GM is trying to abandon their customer and deny warranty coverage for repairs that are just and reasonable and should be covered. I would do as the attorney suggested a little earlier here folks, don't move the car and get an attorney on this one. Your attorney will want an expert witness to examine the car on your behalf in it's current condition and he will have a far easier time arguing for you than GM's expert witness will have arguing against you. Someone earlier mentioned rogue judge and possible appeal. Appeal to State Court is $20,000 minimum and no one in their right mind would do that with the amount of $$ involved here. Judge won't matter as you will be requesting Jury trial. This is a no brainer folks. Get an attorney on this one fast.

Tree

Free legal advice is worth what you pay for it. I disagree that GM will have the more difficult time arguing this case. Just because you may be right doesn't mean you win the lawsuit. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff, automatically making its position the tougher one to prove. And while atmospheric conditions also affect power output, GM built in a safety margin in their tuning (why do you think it's so easy to get a bump in hp with just a tune?), those of us who have modded our engines, myself included, need to understand the potential liability shift when we do so.

I'd hire an attorney, but I'd never go to trial on this one (remember what I said earlier about free legal advice).

C5A4TT

GM is selling/promising a car with a minimum of 505 SAE engine horsepower...all cars have more than that from the facotry!

This is all BS. I say sue GM for monetary compensation...meanwhile have Katech "fix" you car because you need it to make a living.

Greg Gore

I see your's is free too "skippy" and I completely disagree with it. Burden of proof will be on GM to prove warranty should be denied. Let's get some pictures posted here to see why it failed. I can probably pinpoint the cause on this one with pictures alone. Defendants will not want to litigate this due to costs. Also depending on laws in your state it will probably not ever make it to court. Most courts require mediation in cases like these which is mediated by an attorney. GM will not want to be there. I can just about guarantee you this one will go about like a UPS damage claim. All are automatically denied due to insufficient packing because they know most folks will just go away which is the goal. Send them a file stamped copy and you will hear from them fast. Your turn there tree or treehugger or whatever it is.

4pipes

I've been checking out this thread since it was started. Many comments have been focused on "adding headers can't cause that kind of failure". In fact they can. They can change the way heat is carried away from the block, they can cause hot spots that the original manifold did not cause, either by design or happenstance. Unless exhaustive (pardon the pun) tests are performed, no one on this forum should be making the claim that aftermarket headers can't cause engine failures.

I agree with the statement, "if you play, you must pay"
Enjoy the car the way it's delivered, and have the peace of mind that it's covered by a warranty.

JDRacing

Good post, Allan.

Frenchy, you have a PM.

JDRacing

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, Dave. But bear in mind that none of us (including GM) can credibly state that the headers did in fact cause this failure, either. There are many failure mechanisms which could have been at play here. And the burden is on GM to show that the headers/cat combination was THE mechanism that caused the failure.

So far, it appears all Frenchy has so far is a blanket denial based on nothing more than the mere presence of aftermarket parts.

Frenchican

I appreciate everyones support and advice. But I have to be realistic here. I'm going to pick up my car today, have it towed to my house, put it in the garage, wait for Katech to send me my new engine, send my broken engine in for repairs and get the car put back together and enjoy it once again.

Now... I can be pi$$ed off at GM and slam them every chance I get, but I'd rather leave it and the frustration behind. The bottom line is that they have the upper hand on the situation, like it or not. I'm just gonna deal with it and move on.

Thankfully, I am in a position to absorb this added cost for repair. I'm not happy abpout it, but that's the situation. Up to this point I have enjoyed the car very much. I plan on doing so again soon.

If any good has come out of this, it's awareness.

I'm not advocating dishonesty, but to all of us out there with mods... don't let GM find out when you need warranty work

Thanks again everybody.

Greg Gore

I wouldn't necessarily hold this against GM but I would hold it against your zones warranty claims administrator. It is his decision to approve or deny and his boss might decide your case differently but he probably doesn't know anything about it beyond this guy's decision.

allanlaw

Ted, I'd like your thoughts on the following language from the GM warranty:

"The BBB Auto Line Program is an out of court
program administered by the Council of Better Business
Bureaus to settle automotive disputes regarding
vehicle repairs or the interpretation of the New Vehicle
Limited Warranty. Although you may be required to
resort to this informal dispute resolution program prior
to filing a court action, use of the program is free of
charge and your case will generally be heard within
40 days. If you do not agree with the decision given
in your case, you may reject it and proceed with
any other venue for relief available to you."

The use of the word "may" has me puzzled, since nothing else in the document indicates whether resort to this first pass arbitration is mandatory or not. Of course, I think going to the BBB first has a great deal of merit since many times it makes GM upper mangement focus on the case for the first time and I've heard of good outcomes at this level. Nevertheless, what do you make of the "may be required" language? Is it an invitation to examine state law regarding automobile warranties to see if resort to the BBB first is mandatory?

b_pappy

Look guys, this was all a carefully orchestrated scenario by Frenchican to replace that wimpy 505 HP motor with a real motor.
Bruce
(going back to my C5 section now)

allanlaw

There are a few lessons to be learned. Some of us have been called party poopers because we have not been very enthuisiastic about engine-related mods to a C6Z. I think the very first question to ask after one decides that a particular engine-related mod is "needed" is whether, in a worst-case scenerio, I can afford to fix a blown engine or litigate against a very large corporation if warranty coverage is denied. As much as we may hate to admit it, the issue of warranty coverage is not black and white. Those of you who have followed my suggestion posted above to read the warranty (forget the Magnusen/Moss Act because the warranty is consistent with the Act) will see that it requires a causation analysis IF a mod is present (no mod, no issue). Folks can ask the third party part suppliers all they want whether headers or whatever will void the warranty - those of you who have followed this thread now know that the question is meaningless in that the only correct answer is "MAYBE, MAYBE NOT." You really may have to pay to play. Later, if the sh+t hits the fan, accept the stew you find yourself in and fight or not fight as you wish, but don't bitch about it.

Just to be clear, Frenchican has been a man about this situation and has made his decision based on his own circumstances. Tommy, I am not the least bit critical of you and wish you the best. Maybe I can get a ride in the Katech-mobile when it's up and running again.

jvp

Allan, et al -

I actually went through a BBB arbitration, with GM, over a 1995 Z28, many years go. So I can offer some insight. I think what GM is saying is this: "We're going to fight any and all claims against us, so you may be required to seek help from the BBB, if need be. Use it, because it's there for free." As in, "if you want this fixed, you're going to be required to work through the BBB."

My case centered around getting them to buy the car back from me since it had more vertical miles than horizontal ones. And, 3 identical failures. At the time, I researched the Lemon Law, and realized that it's a very expensive and risky proposition for the customer. Using the BBB was (and is) the better way to go, FIRST. (It got GM's attention, and they bought the car back).

That's my take. GM's saying, "We're going to fight you every step of the way. So here's some ammo to use against us, since we're members of the BBB..."

jas

Painrace

Guys, when you start modifying the car, in any way, you are increasing the risk of being denied a warranty claim. If you don't want this problem, don't mod it. If you do mod it, be honest enough to admit it and be fair enough to pay all of part of it if failures occur. It seems like some of you want GM to be responsible for what you do. My car, with about 3,700 miles on it, is at Katech now because I think they are the best. When I get it back I am not going to ask the dealer to warranty Katech's work. I believe Katech will do the best they can but parts do fail and shifts do get missed, etc. Be honest with GM and yourself!

Many years ago the NCCC asked me to bring a Corvette race car to a high speed autocross at Daytona just for everyone to see the car. They did pay part of my expenses and we chose to race in Florida right after that. While at Daytona some guy ran his car off of what used to be about a 2.5-3' wall in the infield just before you go back onto the banking. It tore the suspension all to hell. The guy had the car dragged onto the highway a mile of so from the track and called the cops and turned it into his insurance. I don't know what the outcome was but if I had known who to call I would have told on him. If you are dishonest you may get away with it for a while but it will catch up with you. I trust Katech. I don't think I will be disappointed but only time will tell.

Bottom line, MOD YOUR CAR AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Just my non lawyer 2 cents.

Tree

Why do you find it necessary to say this?

jbp8653

Been keeping up with this thread every day. I earlier posted that we had a Z in our shop with longtubes getting a motor under warranty.
Personally, I think whats happening to this guy is wrong unless there is more to the story. That being said, it would appear that maybe your best insurance against something like this happening is to have a really good relationship with your service dept. We hear of stories on both sides all the time. Seems like it should be more consistant. JMHO.