[Z06] LS7 Engine Failures On CF....The Breakdown
07-30-2009, 07:36 AM
#62
Le Mans Master
You name the car, people have had blown engines in it. We know very little actually about all the variables and levels of abuse of the Z06s. Some have apparently had no abuse, some have had plenty. However, cars having engine damage during track days is hardly rare and is certainly not particularly focused on Z06s. GM did recognize additional oiling would help and changed the design. However, most tracked Z06s before that change did not blow their engines. I just cannot extrapolite from such a small percentage of failures that the sky is falling and we should all panic. Given how hard we push these I actually have the opposite view. 
U.M.
Last edited by Uncle Meat; 07-30-2009 at 07:38 AM.
07-30-2009, 07:46 AM
#63
Burning Brakes
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I don't read all these engine failure threads anymore, so maybe my comment is redundant. And being one of the stock engine failure folks, my opinion is probably not objective. I don't think you can draw anything but a very generally conclusion from the forum reported failures. My gut feeling is, R comp tires and suspension mods are not nearly so causitive as is generally being assumed. From my observation, the significant majority of ZO6 cars on track will fail this "bone stock" test. So, it follows that any cause of engine failure, even if totally unrelated (which I happen to believe), is going to be displayed in all cars, a majority of which happen to be modified in some way. They also all have a driver-side seat of some sort, but it doesn't contribute to the failure. I don't mean to sound sarcastic, or disrespectful of the attempt at analysis. I think the plain fact is, a problem has existed through at least the '08 model year with the LS7 engine. Maybe it's fixed.
07-30-2009, 08:05 AM
#64
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Well $#!+ man, you saying they weren't?
OK, well then half of those 9 claiming bone stock failures I point to in the first post of this thread aren't Z06 owners either.
We have to employ a bit of trust in reading any of this crap up here.
Some of the 9 people posting up that they popped could have been lying trolls, or could have been lying that they were stock. But I'm accepting all 9 on face value.
There could be 1200 people on here at one time or another, or even currently with Z06s.
Like I said, thats why I didn't try and figure a percentage for this board.
I know this low number of completely bone stock failures, sort of pisses on the cornflakes of the "Sky is Falling" crowd.
They were expecting at least 30 members in here to have popped completely bone stock. Probably as many as 50 listening to the hype.
One guy was in here a day or so ago telling us the "facts"
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1570948218-post75.html
But again, if there are others I respectfully ask that you show them to me in the archives.
OK, well then half of those 9 claiming bone stock failures I point to in the first post of this thread aren't Z06 owners either.
We have to employ a bit of trust in reading any of this crap up here.
Some of the 9 people posting up that they popped could have been lying trolls, or could have been lying that they were stock. But I'm accepting all 9 on face value.
There could be 1200 people on here at one time or another, or even currently with Z06s.
Like I said, thats why I didn't try and figure a percentage for this board.
I know this low number of completely bone stock failures, sort of pisses on the cornflakes of the "Sky is Falling" crowd.
They were expecting at least 30 members in here to have popped completely bone stock. Probably as many as 50 listening to the hype.
One guy was in here a day or so ago telling us the "facts"
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1570948218-post75.html
But again, if there are others I respectfully ask that you show them to me in the archives.
If you can't change the tires or suspension mods without blowing up a car under conditions it was designed for, it has issues IN MY OPINION. I bought the car to track it on the weekends and drive it to the office on weekdays but I can't do that without the fear of it blowing up or GM throwing some BS out and voiding the warranty. Most companies have to prove that the 3rd party mod failed and caused damage to the car, but not GM all of sudden. If you think this crap I will give you the number to a friend of mine that is a master mechanic for Toyota for 35 years and he will be happy to fill you in because he said the same thing and last I checked Toyota was rated one of the highest car manufactures that turns a profit. Point being? Other SUCCESSFUL car manufactures allow people to modify their cars without voiding the entire damn warranty. And for the record I am not talking about tunes, I am talking simple stuff like exhaust, suspension, new tires, brakes, etc.
Please show me another sports car that has this same type of issue that was built within the last 10 years?
Have fun on your witch hunt, lol
Last edited by jmalto; 07-30-2009 at 08:16 AM.
07-30-2009, 08:19 AM
#65
Le Mans Master
Man, I was just about to thank you for taking the time to do this to put "paranoid" people (more like concerned) at ease. Bro you got way too much time and you are obviously very defensive about this topic for whatever that reason may be. It is YOUR OPINION just like it is MY OPINION and others, that these cars have issues. If you don't like it then don't read it. Every post someone makes about blown motors you go into detective mode and start questioning about mods. If someone even remotely mentions they don't agree with GM's warranty policy you go nuts.
If you can't change the tires or suspension mods without blowing up a car under conditions it was designed for, it has issues IN MY OPINION. I bought the car to track it on the weekends and drive it to the office on weekdays but I can't do that without the fear of it blowing up or GM throwing some BS out and voiding the warranty. Most companies have to prove that the 3rd party mod failed and caused damage to the car, but not GM all of sudden. If you think this crap I will give you the number to a friend of mine that is a master mechanic for Toyota for 35 years and he will be happy to fill you in because he said the same thing and last I checked Toyota was rated one of the highest car manufactures that turns a profit. Point being? Other SUCCESSFUL car manufactures allow people to modify their cars without voiding the entire damn warranty. And for the record I am not talking about tunes, I am talking simple stuff like exhaust, suspension, new tires, brakes, etc.
Please show me another sports car that has this same type of issue that was built within the last 10 years?
Have fun on your witch hunt, lol
If you can't change the tires or suspension mods without blowing up a car under conditions it was designed for, it has issues IN MY OPINION. I bought the car to track it on the weekends and drive it to the office on weekdays but I can't do that without the fear of it blowing up or GM throwing some BS out and voiding the warranty. Most companies have to prove that the 3rd party mod failed and caused damage to the car, but not GM all of sudden. If you think this crap I will give you the number to a friend of mine that is a master mechanic for Toyota for 35 years and he will be happy to fill you in because he said the same thing and last I checked Toyota was rated one of the highest car manufactures that turns a profit. Point being? Other SUCCESSFUL car manufactures allow people to modify their cars without voiding the entire damn warranty. And for the record I am not talking about tunes, I am talking simple stuff like exhaust, suspension, new tires, brakes, etc.
Please show me another sports car that has this same type of issue that was built within the last 10 years?
Have fun on your witch hunt, lol
is the 93-95 Rx-7 TT.
07-30-2009, 08:49 AM
#66
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Thanks for the heads up.
I really put that in there to spotlight the track failures.
A guy tracking his car on non stock rubber grippier tires has a greater chance of running into an oil starvation problem on the track than he does on the street.
So I really put that out there to focus on that. Thats the instance I'm really looking at, non stock rubber on the track, which has lead to some of the failures discussed here.
As far as time on my hands jmalto, well, I worked hard to get to this point in life to where I have "time on my hands".
And I'd rather spend it digging up the facts as opposed to spouting nonsense such as:
Someone had to call bull$#*+. No one else would so I had to make up for the other's neglect by using some of all of this time on my hands.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 07-30-2009 at 08:57 AM.
07-30-2009, 09:12 AM
#67
Le Mans Master
You are assuming that every Z06 from 06-09 ever sold are on this forum and these are the only failures.
At any rate, the percentage of failures "I am now assuming" isn't that much greater so buy with confidence.
Just don't mod the car in any way shape or form and don't track it. Just drive the 505hp monster on the public highways and enjoy. Geez I wonder how many folks would have purchased Z06's if GM had a marketing campaign like that
At any rate, the percentage of failures "I am now assuming" isn't that much greater so buy with confidence.
Just don't mod the car in any way shape or form and don't track it. Just drive the 505hp monster on the public highways and enjoy. Geez I wonder how many folks would have purchased Z06's if GM had a marketing campaign like that
Jim
07-30-2009, 09:38 AM
#68
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Dec 2004
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St. Jude Donor '06-'08-'10-'11-'12-'13 '14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19
Great job, good solid statistical analysis, protocol clearly defined. The naysayers need to get over it, whatever "it" is.
Keep up the good work.
Keep up the good work.
07-30-2009, 09:54 AM
#70
Drifting
Thanks!
Quicksilver - Thanks for your considerable effort in pulling all of this together. My guess is that the majority of ZO6 owners that appreciate the performance aspects of the Z are on the forum. The balance just bought the car because it's so darned good looking. The failure rate for this portion of the population has got to be much lower than CF members.
Just a thought.
Jim
Just a thought.
Jim
07-30-2009, 10:15 AM
#72
Melting Slicks
my conclusion is the ls7 is one heck of a motor...i have about 24k miles total on an o6 [10k] and 07 [14k]...no issues what-so-ever..and they see their share of hard driving...
anyone who thinks there is a problem with ls7's just doesn't have a clue....i have worked in auto service for 35 years....ALL manufacturers have service departments....why?...because they all have parts that fail...and alll cars need service...i know of many engine failures from many different makes...[ one example...my co-driver lost his main bearings from oil starvation while auto-xing his 2001 celica]...
so for all the sky is falling folks....you better run because it is...
anyone who thinks there is a problem with ls7's just doesn't have a clue....i have worked in auto service for 35 years....ALL manufacturers have service departments....why?...because they all have parts that fail...and alll cars need service...i know of many engine failures from many different makes...[ one example...my co-driver lost his main bearings from oil starvation while auto-xing his 2001 celica]...
so for all the sky is falling folks....you better run because it is...
07-30-2009, 10:21 AM
#73
Instructor
I agree and it's been said dozens of time already that this info is really useless but if it makes you feel more comfortable to accept it that's your business. The fact is that the Z06 had an oiling issue and it was a big enough issue for GM to address it in 09.
07-30-2009, 10:36 AM
#74
Melting Slicks
QS:
Thanks for taking the time to do this analysis. You've done the best analysis you could given the nature of the data. A few facts/points are in order for the people who seem to want to argue about this:
1. QS cannot possibly survey all 25K Z06 owners. He is limited to those who post here. Thus he is using a subset of owners to draw his conclusions. Generalizing this to the entire population of cars/owners is not perfect but is the best data that we have. GM is the only one who knows the true failure rate - ask them at the next BG event.
2. I'll stipulate that the CF user group represents a more aggressive group of drivers vs. those that do not post. Not bad drivers, just more likely to test the safety factor of the engine.
If this is true, then there is no doubt some sampling error in that we may be overestimating the true failure rate.
3. At this point, we'll have to make an educated guess with respect to the true failure rate. Since people are more likely to post when problems arise, let's assume that they wil post it here if they aware of this site or are a member. Let's assume that, conservatively, 10% of the Z06 community posts or is capable of posting here. Then we have ~8 failures out of 2500 or so cars let's round to 10/2500 for simplicity. Now we have a failure rate of 0.4%. This probably over-represents the true failure rate but is the best we can do....
4. Others have posted that there is a problem with this engine that is being ignored. Yes and no. QS's methods (to reject those cars with modified tires or suspension) in one sense ingore the oiling issue as they would tend to mask this problem. However, since GM did not design the car to operate with coilovers or tires meant to add grip on the track, he is just simplifying the analysis as he wants to know how likely a stock car is to fail. This does not imply or prove there is not a "problem" with the LS7 - clearly it has some weaknesses such as the oiling system and, in an isolated group of units, bad rocker arms... However, people get really caught up in the N=1 problem - they read a few cases online and assume that every LS7 is failing or has some fundamental design flaw that will lead to a majority of LS7's failing under normal operation- this is not true.
Thanks for taking the time to do this analysis. You've done the best analysis you could given the nature of the data. A few facts/points are in order for the people who seem to want to argue about this:
1. QS cannot possibly survey all 25K Z06 owners. He is limited to those who post here. Thus he is using a subset of owners to draw his conclusions. Generalizing this to the entire population of cars/owners is not perfect but is the best data that we have. GM is the only one who knows the true failure rate - ask them at the next BG event.
2. I'll stipulate that the CF user group represents a more aggressive group of drivers vs. those that do not post. Not bad drivers, just more likely to test the safety factor of the engine.
If this is true, then there is no doubt some sampling error in that we may be overestimating the true failure rate.3. At this point, we'll have to make an educated guess with respect to the true failure rate. Since people are more likely to post when problems arise, let's assume that they wil post it here if they aware of this site or are a member. Let's assume that, conservatively, 10% of the Z06 community posts or is capable of posting here. Then we have ~8 failures out of 2500 or so cars let's round to 10/2500 for simplicity. Now we have a failure rate of 0.4%. This probably over-represents the true failure rate but is the best we can do....
4. Others have posted that there is a problem with this engine that is being ignored. Yes and no. QS's methods (to reject those cars with modified tires or suspension) in one sense ingore the oiling issue as they would tend to mask this problem. However, since GM did not design the car to operate with coilovers or tires meant to add grip on the track, he is just simplifying the analysis as he wants to know how likely a stock car is to fail. This does not imply or prove there is not a "problem" with the LS7 - clearly it has some weaknesses such as the oiling system and, in an isolated group of units, bad rocker arms... However, people get really caught up in the N=1 problem - they read a few cases online and assume that every LS7 is failing or has some fundamental design flaw that will lead to a majority of LS7's failing under normal operation- this is not true.
07-30-2009, 11:02 AM
#75
Melting Slicks
I have spent a good part of the last 4 days searching the archives of this great forum of ours to get to the bottom of how many actual members here with showroom stock LS7s have had them failed in Showroom bone stock C6 Z06s on this forum.
The members posts and prior posts were checked to confirm that their cars were indeed bone stock.
A number of members were "disqualified" because their cars were modded with anything from stickier tires, to tunes, to full blown heads and cam packages, nitrous, forced induction, and an array of suspension modifications.
These are "known to be bone stock" cars only. No modded ones.
The posts go back to November 2005.
The Lineup:
There have been 25,623 C6 Z06s built to date.
There are nine members of this forum, that I have been able to identify via an intense search of the forum, claiming failure of an LS7 engine in an otherwise bone stock car.
9/25,623 represents 0.035% of all Z06s built.
If anyone can find a post from the archives of another documented showroom stock C6 Z06, on this forum, which had it's engine fail, please point to the thread.
These are not reports from modded cars as with a modded car, all bets are off.
The car left Bowling Green stock. If it fails stock, then thats all I'm interested in finding out here.
Modded cars which fail, cars on sticky tires and/or suspension mods brake mods, on the track, GM is not at fault there.
The goal here is to find out how many SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 failures we have seen on this forum and how that relates to the total number of Z06s built.
Bear in mind these are not people who say that they "heard of" one, I don't bother to list those because the one which someone "heard" about may be one of the ones included below.
The breakdown, no pun intended, goes like this.
2009 models. No reports found on the form
2008 models 3 Reports.
2007 models 2 Reports
2006 models 4 Reports
Charles Scavone 2006 Model
Slim Shady 2007 model
whitjo 2006 Model
Bmore30 2007 Model
Joe_Planet 2008 Model
elh0102 2008 Model
dg144 2006 model
RedSSR 2008
66L72 2006 Model
I hope this puts to rest some of the paranoia, but somehow, I know that it won't.
The members posts and prior posts were checked to confirm that their cars were indeed bone stock.
A number of members were "disqualified" because their cars were modded with anything from stickier tires, to tunes, to full blown heads and cam packages, nitrous, forced induction, and an array of suspension modifications.
These are "known to be bone stock" cars only. No modded ones.
The posts go back to November 2005.
The Lineup:
There have been 25,623 C6 Z06s built to date.
There are nine members of this forum, that I have been able to identify via an intense search of the forum, claiming failure of an LS7 engine in an otherwise bone stock car.
9/25,623 represents 0.035% of all Z06s built.
If anyone can find a post from the archives of another documented showroom stock C6 Z06, on this forum, which had it's engine fail, please point to the thread.
These are not reports from modded cars as with a modded car, all bets are off.
The car left Bowling Green stock. If it fails stock, then thats all I'm interested in finding out here.
Modded cars which fail, cars on sticky tires and/or suspension mods brake mods, on the track, GM is not at fault there.
The goal here is to find out how many SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 failures we have seen on this forum and how that relates to the total number of Z06s built.
Bear in mind these are not people who say that they "heard of" one, I don't bother to list those because the one which someone "heard" about may be one of the ones included below.
The breakdown, no pun intended, goes like this.
2009 models. No reports found on the form
2008 models 3 Reports.
2007 models 2 Reports
2006 models 4 Reports
Charles Scavone 2006 Model
Slim Shady 2007 model
whitjo 2006 Model
Bmore30 2007 Model
Joe_Planet 2008 Model
elh0102 2008 Model
dg144 2006 model
RedSSR 2008
66L72 2006 Model
I hope this puts to rest some of the paranoia, but somehow, I know that it won't.
x 1,000. Brilliantly done here and in post 18. All too often a few instances get blown out of proportion to reality. Way to research the actual data to get a relative sense of perspective. Yes, it is a closed set of data but even extrapolating to a much larger field does not bring up a meaningful percentage of instances.
Again, really well done. One of those rare posts that is truly educational and can be cited as a reference.
07-30-2009, 11:21 AM
#76
Safety Car
yeah, too bad we already had started a thread like such and, after a few pages of debate, came to the realization that the data presented (you can include this thread's data) shows nothing conclusive at a statistical point of view, or at best a seriously limited scope based on the CF community, but certainly 0 meaning to the overhaul corvette production.
07-30-2009, 11:27 AM
#77
Racer
I have spent a good part of the last 4 days searching the archives of this great forum of ours to get to the bottom of how many actual members here with showroom stock LS7s have had them failed in Showroom bone stock C6 Z06s on this forum.
The members posts and prior posts were checked to confirm that their cars were indeed bone stock.
A number of members were "disqualified" because their cars were modded with anything from stickier tires, to tunes, to full blown heads and cam packages, nitrous, forced induction, and an array of suspension modifications.
These are "known to be bone stock" cars only. No modded ones.
The posts go back to November 2005.
The Lineup:
There have been 25,623 C6 Z06s built to date.
There are nine members of this forum, that I have been able to identify via an intense search of the forum, claiming failure of an LS7 engine in an otherwise bone stock car.
9/25,623 represents 0.035% of all Z06s built.
If anyone can find a post from the archives of another documented showroom stock C6 Z06, on this forum, which had it's engine fail, please point to the thread.
These are not reports from modded cars as with a modded car, all bets are off.
The car left Bowling Green stock. If it fails stock, then thats all I'm interested in finding out here.
Modded cars which fail, cars on sticky tires and/or suspension mods brake mods, on the track, GM is not at fault there.
The goal here is to find out how many SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 failures we have seen on this forum and how that relates to the total number of Z06s built.
Bear in mind these are not people who say that they "heard of" one, I don't bother to list those because the one which someone "heard" about may be one of the ones included below.
The breakdown, no pun intended, goes like this.
2009 models. No reports found on the form
2008 models 3 Reports.
2007 models 2 Reports
2006 models 4 Reports
Charles Scavone 2006 Model
Slim Shady 2007 model
whitjo 2006 Model
Bmore30 2007 Model
Joe_Planet 2008 Model
elh0102 2008 Model
dg144 2006 model
RedSSR 2008
66L72 2006 Model
I hope this puts to rest some of the paranoia, but somehow, I know that it won't.
The members posts and prior posts were checked to confirm that their cars were indeed bone stock.
A number of members were "disqualified" because their cars were modded with anything from stickier tires, to tunes, to full blown heads and cam packages, nitrous, forced induction, and an array of suspension modifications.
These are "known to be bone stock" cars only. No modded ones.
The posts go back to November 2005.
The Lineup:
There have been 25,623 C6 Z06s built to date.
There are nine members of this forum, that I have been able to identify via an intense search of the forum, claiming failure of an LS7 engine in an otherwise bone stock car.
9/25,623 represents 0.035% of all Z06s built.
If anyone can find a post from the archives of another documented showroom stock C6 Z06, on this forum, which had it's engine fail, please point to the thread.
These are not reports from modded cars as with a modded car, all bets are off.
The car left Bowling Green stock. If it fails stock, then thats all I'm interested in finding out here.
Modded cars which fail, cars on sticky tires and/or suspension mods brake mods, on the track, GM is not at fault there.
The goal here is to find out how many SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 failures we have seen on this forum and how that relates to the total number of Z06s built.
Bear in mind these are not people who say that they "heard of" one, I don't bother to list those because the one which someone "heard" about may be one of the ones included below.
The breakdown, no pun intended, goes like this.
2009 models. No reports found on the form
2008 models 3 Reports.
2007 models 2 Reports
2006 models 4 Reports
Charles Scavone 2006 Model
Slim Shady 2007 model
whitjo 2006 Model
Bmore30 2007 Model
Joe_Planet 2008 Model
elh0102 2008 Model
dg144 2006 model
RedSSR 2008
66L72 2006 Model
I hope this puts to rest some of the paranoia, but somehow, I know that it won't.
Based on your criteria you can take me off the list. I have Pfadt coil overs on my car.
07-30-2009, 11:45 AM
#78
Supporting Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2002
Location: Bristol, Tennessee
Posts: 12,988
Received 585 Likes
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314 Posts
St. Jude Donor '09
I have spent a good part of the last 4 days searching the archives of this great forum of ours to get to the bottom of how many actual members here with showroom stock LS7s have had them failed in Showroom bone stock C6 Z06s on this forum.
The members posts and prior posts were checked to confirm that their cars were indeed bone stock.
A number of members were "disqualified" because their cars were modded with anything from stickier tires, to tunes, to full blown heads and cam packages, nitrous, forced induction, and an array of suspension modifications.
These are "known to be bone stock" cars only. No modded ones.
The posts go back to November 2005.
The Lineup:
There have been 25,623 C6 Z06s built to date.
There are nine members of this forum, that I have been able to identify via an intense search of the forum, claiming failure of an LS7 engine in an otherwise bone stock car.
9/25,623 represents 0.035% of all Z06s built.
If anyone can find a post from the archives of another documented showroom stock C6 Z06, on this forum, which had it's engine fail, please point to the thread.
These are not reports from modded cars as with a modded car, all bets are off.
The car left Bowling Green stock. If it fails stock, then thats all I'm interested in finding out here.
Modded cars which fail, cars on sticky tires and/or suspension mods brake mods, on the track, GM is not at fault there.
The goal here is to find out how many SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 failures we have seen on this forum and how that relates to the total number of Z06s built.
Bear in mind these are not people who say that they "heard of" one, I don't bother to list those because the one which someone "heard" about may be one of the ones included below.
The breakdown, no pun intended, goes like this.
2009 models. No reports found on the form
2008 models 3 Reports.
2007 models 2 Reports
2006 models 4 Reports
Charles Scavone 2006 Model
Slim Shady 2007 model
whitjo 2006 Model
Bmore30 2007 Model
Joe_Planet 2008 Model
elh0102 2008 Model
dg144 2006 model
RedSSR 2008
66L72 2006 Model
I hope this puts to rest some of the paranoia, but somehow, I know that it won't.
The members posts and prior posts were checked to confirm that their cars were indeed bone stock.
A number of members were "disqualified" because their cars were modded with anything from stickier tires, to tunes, to full blown heads and cam packages, nitrous, forced induction, and an array of suspension modifications.
These are "known to be bone stock" cars only. No modded ones.
The posts go back to November 2005.
The Lineup:
There have been 25,623 C6 Z06s built to date.
There are nine members of this forum, that I have been able to identify via an intense search of the forum, claiming failure of an LS7 engine in an otherwise bone stock car.
9/25,623 represents 0.035% of all Z06s built.
If anyone can find a post from the archives of another documented showroom stock C6 Z06, on this forum, which had it's engine fail, please point to the thread.
These are not reports from modded cars as with a modded car, all bets are off.
The car left Bowling Green stock. If it fails stock, then thats all I'm interested in finding out here.
Modded cars which fail, cars on sticky tires and/or suspension mods brake mods, on the track, GM is not at fault there.
The goal here is to find out how many SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 failures we have seen on this forum and how that relates to the total number of Z06s built.
Bear in mind these are not people who say that they "heard of" one, I don't bother to list those because the one which someone "heard" about may be one of the ones included below.
The breakdown, no pun intended, goes like this.
2009 models. No reports found on the form
2008 models 3 Reports.
2007 models 2 Reports
2006 models 4 Reports
Charles Scavone 2006 Model
Slim Shady 2007 model
whitjo 2006 Model
Bmore30 2007 Model
Joe_Planet 2008 Model
elh0102 2008 Model
dg144 2006 model
RedSSR 2008
66L72 2006 Model
I hope this puts to rest some of the paranoia, but somehow, I know that it won't.
07-30-2009, 11:56 AM
#80
Le Mans Master
