[ZR1] Went drag racing for the first time tonight
#21
Burning Brakes
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I understand your frustration and this is what i have been saying fom day one .The ZR1 in a quarter mile drag race is not any quicker or marginally quicker than a z06 with 133 less h.p.Some people have blocked me off their you tube pages for saying that but its the truth.Gearing and heat soaking issues?Maybe .But i still dont see why a stock ZR1with all thet power and a decent driver doesnt run consistant high tens.Forget these yoyos with their prepped tracks etc.Tell them to take a zr1 or even a z06 with no prepped track and no drag radials and no three hour cooldown period between runs and they wont be any quicker than the next guy.Some people elevate these guys to the level of semi god .These same guys criticize if we use another dot tire than the stupid gy runflats while they are toying around with every other variable to set a record.Lets all meet at a track and see who really is the fastest on a fair playing field.Im ready to do it no prepped track straight off the highway any takers?
Last edited by jamie furman; 03-05-2011 at 07:03 PM.
#22
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355Spider.
What make the ZR1 a particular challenge in optimizing the 1320' ET is launching the car with the 2.29 1st gear. For comparison, 1st gear is 2.66 in the Z06.
Interestingly, the applied rear-wheel torque at a 3600 launch is:
C6-ZR1 2.29 x 504 = 1154 very large tire contact patch
C6-Z06 2.66 x 393 = 1045 large tire contact patch
C5-Z06 2.97 x 325 = 965 medium tire contact patch
The three cars produce very similar 60'. But the difference among them is the applied power in the 60'-330' and 330'-1320'. The ZR1 outshines in those incrementals.
About 10 years ago I wrote that it takes 30-50 passes to get the driver component dialed-in in any severely traction-limited car with a manual transmission. That was true then and remains true today.
Kyle is currently the only ZR1 driver I'm aware of who has accumulated the passes for dialed-in status. And his ETs and their general consistency bear that out.
The ZR1 can be successively hot-lapped 2, 3, or 4 passes in cool weather without notable performance degradation, but in warmer weather the intercooler can become heat-soaked after a single pass. That in turn excessively warms the air entering the combustion chamber, even if the engine coolant temp (shown in the DIC) is in the sweet range.
With that as general background, 355Spider I'd suggest loading those slips into a spread sheet and calculating the incrementals. The numbers to compare and contrast are: 60', 330', 60'-330' (includes the 1-2 shift), and 330'-1320'. Focusing on those numbers will help you sort out the (1) impact of the launch and 1-2 shift [60', 330', 60'-330'] and (2) the possible impact of heat soak [330'-1320'].
Also keep in mind that ZR1 ETs are sensitive to (1) the 1-2 shift duration, (2) limiter clips, and (3) shift point correctness. There's more to it than just getting the launch correct.
Good luck at the track.
Ranger
What make the ZR1 a particular challenge in optimizing the 1320' ET is launching the car with the 2.29 1st gear. For comparison, 1st gear is 2.66 in the Z06.
Interestingly, the applied rear-wheel torque at a 3600 launch is:
C6-ZR1 2.29 x 504 = 1154 very large tire contact patch
C6-Z06 2.66 x 393 = 1045 large tire contact patch
C5-Z06 2.97 x 325 = 965 medium tire contact patch
The three cars produce very similar 60'. But the difference among them is the applied power in the 60'-330' and 330'-1320'. The ZR1 outshines in those incrementals.
About 10 years ago I wrote that it takes 30-50 passes to get the driver component dialed-in in any severely traction-limited car with a manual transmission. That was true then and remains true today.
Kyle is currently the only ZR1 driver I'm aware of who has accumulated the passes for dialed-in status. And his ETs and their general consistency bear that out.
The ZR1 can be successively hot-lapped 2, 3, or 4 passes in cool weather without notable performance degradation, but in warmer weather the intercooler can become heat-soaked after a single pass. That in turn excessively warms the air entering the combustion chamber, even if the engine coolant temp (shown in the DIC) is in the sweet range.
With that as general background, 355Spider I'd suggest loading those slips into a spread sheet and calculating the incrementals. The numbers to compare and contrast are: 60', 330', 60'-330' (includes the 1-2 shift), and 330'-1320'. Focusing on those numbers will help you sort out the (1) impact of the launch and 1-2 shift [60', 330', 60'-330'] and (2) the possible impact of heat soak [330'-1320'].
Also keep in mind that ZR1 ETs are sensitive to (1) the 1-2 shift duration, (2) limiter clips, and (3) shift point correctness. There's more to it than just getting the launch correct.
Good luck at the track.
Ranger
Last edited by Ranger; 03-06-2011 at 07:55 AM.
#24
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#26
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
355Spider.
What make the ZR1 a particular challenge in optimizing the 1320' ET is launching the car with the 2.29 1st gear. For comparison, 1st gear is 2.66 in the Z06.
Interestingly, the applied rear-wheel torque at a 3600 launch is:
C6-ZR1 2.29 x 504 = 1154 very large tire contact patch
C6-Z06 2.66 x 393 = 1045 large tire contact patch
C5-Z06 2.97 x 325 = 965 medium tire contact patch
The three cars produce very similar 60'. But the difference among them is the applied power in the 60'-330' and 330'-1320'. The ZR1 outshines in those incrementals.
About 10 years ago I wrote that it takes 30-50 passes to get the driver component dialed-in in any severely traction-limited car with a manual transmission. That was true then and remains true today.
Kyle is currently the only ZR1 driver I'm aware of who has accumulated the passes for dialed-in status. And his ETs and their general consistency bear that out.
The ZR1 can be successively hot-lapped 2, 3, or 4 passes in cool weather without notable performance degradation, but in warmer weather the intercooler can become heat-soaked after a single pass. That in turn excessively warms the air entering the combustion chamber, even if the engine coolant temp (shown in the DIC) is in the sweet range.
With that as general background, 355Spider I'd suggest loading those slips into a spread sheet and calculating the incrementals. The numbers to compare and contrast are: 60', 330', 60'-330' (includes the 1-2 shift), and 330'-1320'. Focusing on those numbers will help you sort out the (1) impact of the launch and 1-2 shift [60', 330', 60'-330'] and (2) the possible impact of heat soak [330'-1320'].
Also keep in mind that ZR1 ETs are sensitive to (1) the 1-2 shift duration, (2) limiter clips, and (3) shift point correctness. There's more to it than just getting the launch correct.
Good luck at the track.
Ranger
What make the ZR1 a particular challenge in optimizing the 1320' ET is launching the car with the 2.29 1st gear. For comparison, 1st gear is 2.66 in the Z06.
Interestingly, the applied rear-wheel torque at a 3600 launch is:
C6-ZR1 2.29 x 504 = 1154 very large tire contact patch
C6-Z06 2.66 x 393 = 1045 large tire contact patch
C5-Z06 2.97 x 325 = 965 medium tire contact patch
The three cars produce very similar 60'. But the difference among them is the applied power in the 60'-330' and 330'-1320'. The ZR1 outshines in those incrementals.
About 10 years ago I wrote that it takes 30-50 passes to get the driver component dialed-in in any severely traction-limited car with a manual transmission. That was true then and remains true today.
Kyle is currently the only ZR1 driver I'm aware of who has accumulated the passes for dialed-in status. And his ETs and their general consistency bear that out.
The ZR1 can be successively hot-lapped 2, 3, or 4 passes in cool weather without notable performance degradation, but in warmer weather the intercooler can become heat-soaked after a single pass. That in turn excessively warms the air entering the combustion chamber, even if the engine coolant temp (shown in the DIC) is in the sweet range.
With that as general background, 355Spider I'd suggest loading those slips into a spread sheet and calculating the incrementals. The numbers to compare and contrast are: 60', 330', 60'-330' (includes the 1-2 shift), and 330'-1320'. Focusing on those numbers will help you sort out the (1) impact of the launch and 1-2 shift [60', 330', 60'-330'] and (2) the possible impact of heat soak [330'-1320'].
Also keep in mind that ZR1 ETs are sensitive to (1) the 1-2 shift duration, (2) limiter clips, and (3) shift point correctness. There's more to it than just getting the launch correct.
Good luck at the track.
Ranger
yeah we discussed that at length. Someday after I get some 10 second stock runs.
1 push. Tc off. Didn't mess with ah until I did the launch control pass. Shifting IS awesome with launch control.
Last edited by 355Spider; 03-06-2011 at 12:22 PM.
#27
Burning Brakes
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Question
I have plans on buying a ZR-1 some day hopefully soon, Is it worth paying the extra money for a 2010 with launch control or an 09 without. It seems that there is very little diff. between both cars other than that feature & I'm still hearing about the wheel hop issue.Which I hoped would of been resolved with the newer cars.
#28
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I have plans on buying a ZR-1 some day hopefully soon, Is it worth paying the extra money for a 2010 with launch control or an 09 without. It seems that there is very little diff. between both cars other than that feature & I'm still hearing about the wheel hop issue.Which I hoped would of been resolved with the newer cars.
#29
I would think a 60 minute cruise at 85 mph would ensure that everything would be at normal operating temperature.
I thought cars got "heat soaked" from a 1/4 mile all-out blast immediately followed by puttering around in the pits, or sometimes by interminable puttering around in the staging lanes before trying to run.
I hate to think that, if challenged to a race (by a professional driver on a closed course) I should accept only after assurance that I could cool my car to something less than normal operating temperature.
I rarely make it to the track so what do I know? ... but I do have a lot of ancient history trying to run a supercharged, intercooled 5.0 Mustang on the street, battling head gaskets, heat, fuel octane, etc.
Last edited by Trapper Sean; 03-06-2011 at 01:37 PM.
#30
The Consigliere
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I understand your frustration and this is what i have been saying fom day one .The ZR1 in a quarter mile drag race is not any quicker or marginally quicker than a z06 with 133 less h.p.Some people have blocked me off their you tube pages for saying that but its the truth.Gearing and heat soaking issues?Maybe .But i still dont see why a stock ZR1with all thet power and a decent driver doesnt run consistant high tens.Forget these yoyos with their prepped tracks etc.Tell them to take a zr1 or even a z06 with no prepped track and no drag radials and no three hour cooldown period between runs and they wont be any quicker than the next guy.Some people elevate these guys to the level of semi god .These same guys criticize if we use another dot tire than the stupid gy runflats while they are toying around with every other variable to set a record.Lets all meet at a track and see who really is the fastest on a fair playing field.Im ready to do it no prepped track straight off the highway any takers?
Most of the difference, my friend, is in the gearing. The Z and ZR launch quite differently. Until you've spent some seat time in both, you won't be able to appreciate that. A pilot that has mastered the Z, will need to do some more work if he transitions to the ZR due to the gearing and different launch characteristics.
As to the apparent doubt about the power, my ZR puts a 10+ mph delta over stock Z's in the standing mile. That, my friend is real, and is a significant delta. Trap speeds for folks that have dialed the launch in the 1/4 similarly illustrate it.
#31
Burning Brakes
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I would think a 60 minute cruise at 85 mph would ensure that everything would be at normal operating temperature.
I thought cars got "heat soaked" from a 1/4 mile all-out blast immediately followed by puttering around in the pits, or sometimes by interminable puttering around in the staging lanes before trying to run.
I hate to think that, if challenged to a race (by a professional driver on a closed course) I should accept only after assurance that I could cool my car to something less than normal operating temperature.
I rarely make it to the track so what do I know? ... but I do have a lot of ancient history trying to run a supercharged, intercooled 5.0 Mustang on the street, battling head gaskets, heat, fuel octane, etc.
Kind of like going for a long run, sure you sweat while you’re running but the air keeps you from feeling your true body temp….until you stop. Then it’s like a radiating heat wave you can feel all over. One of the reasons heat injury prevention rules say to never just stop moving after a long or strenuous run.
#32
Thank you Ranger!
I just have my paid for '05. It's still a great car. Getting my ducks in a row and maybe will swing a ZR-1 in the next year or so.
First to comment on this particular topic: A person does not have to own a ZR1 or any other particular car to understand the wisdom in Ranger's GENERAL comment: "In any severely traction limited manual trans car....."
There is a learning curve in any such car. Also, it's been my experience to always expect a performance car to run better , or considerably better, after it is itself "broken in" with at least a few thousand miles on the clock.
Most of us know about what heat does to engine performance. I cannot help but wonder how the ZR1 would do heat soak wise if that plastic monstrosity were removed from the engine vs. leaving it in place.
Second comment to Ranger: Thank you! I've enjoyed, along with probably many many other people, your highly cogent and thoroughly researched conclusions regarding Z06 performance. I've read and enjoyed your posts for years even though I don't own a Z06. I don't own a space shuttle either but have learned a lot about it from others.
So, simply put, thank you.
First to comment on this particular topic: A person does not have to own a ZR1 or any other particular car to understand the wisdom in Ranger's GENERAL comment: "In any severely traction limited manual trans car....."
There is a learning curve in any such car. Also, it's been my experience to always expect a performance car to run better , or considerably better, after it is itself "broken in" with at least a few thousand miles on the clock.
Most of us know about what heat does to engine performance. I cannot help but wonder how the ZR1 would do heat soak wise if that plastic monstrosity were removed from the engine vs. leaving it in place.
Second comment to Ranger: Thank you! I've enjoyed, along with probably many many other people, your highly cogent and thoroughly researched conclusions regarding Z06 performance. I've read and enjoyed your posts for years even though I don't own a Z06. I don't own a space shuttle either but have learned a lot about it from others.
So, simply put, thank you.
Last edited by OregonC6; 03-06-2011 at 10:10 PM. Reason: sp
#33
Le Mans Master
Should've tossed a bag of ice on the intercooler between runs to see if heatsoak is the real problem. How did you verify the timing being retarded?
#34
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I ignore the shift light and instead follow the sweep of the tachometer needle. The rate of change is different in each gear. That rhythm is what needs to be internalized.
Ranger
Ranger
Last edited by Ranger; 03-07-2011 at 08:16 AM.
#35
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I just have my paid for '05. It's still a great car. Getting my ducks in a row and maybe will swing a ZR-1 in the next year or so.
First to comment on this particular topic: A person does not have to own a ZR1 or any other particular car to understand the wisdom in Ranger's GENERAL comment: "In any severely traction limited manual trans car....."
There is a learning curve in any such car. Also, it's been my experience to always expect a performance car to run better , or considerably better, after it is itself "broken in" with at least a few thousand miles on the clock.
Most of us know about what heat does to engine performance. I cannot help but wonder how the ZR1 would do heat soak wise if that plastic monstrosity were removed from the engine vs. leaving it in place.
Second comment to Ranger: Thank you! I've enjoyed, along with probably many many other people, your highly cogent and thoroughly researched conclusions regarding Z06 performance. I've read and enjoyed your posts for years even though I don't own a Z06. I don't own a space shuttle either but have learned a lot about it from others.
So, simply put, thank you.
First to comment on this particular topic: A person does not have to own a ZR1 or any other particular car to understand the wisdom in Ranger's GENERAL comment: "In any severely traction limited manual trans car....."
There is a learning curve in any such car. Also, it's been my experience to always expect a performance car to run better , or considerably better, after it is itself "broken in" with at least a few thousand miles on the clock.
Most of us know about what heat does to engine performance. I cannot help but wonder how the ZR1 would do heat soak wise if that plastic monstrosity were removed from the engine vs. leaving it in place.
Second comment to Ranger: Thank you! I've enjoyed, along with probably many many other people, your highly cogent and thoroughly researched conclusions regarding Z06 performance. I've read and enjoyed your posts for years even though I don't own a Z06. I don't own a space shuttle either but have learned a lot about it from others.
So, simply put, thank you.
Cool thanks.
#36
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Here's a video to illustrate the wheel hop I was talking about. My advice is don't stay in it like I did.
http://www.youtube.com/user/rmsman?f.../0/B93nQYyHQcg
http://www.youtube.com/user/rmsman?f.../0/B93nQYyHQcg
#39
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
That's the no lift launch control shifting. You don't lift throttle so the rpms drop very little in between shifts which sounds funny from the outside. Another guy said that when I got back but I didn't. Not that run anyway.
#40
Thats definately rev-limiter!