[Z06] Not another blown engine thread
02-02-2012, 10:54 PM
#41
The oil pan has ramps in it and a wet sump-style pickup tube. Under braking and or high g cornering on cars that are more capable than the factory intended, oil can slosh up these ramps and starve the pickup. When the pickup is starved you have until the dry sump tank empties before you starve the engine. The ARE pan has a captured sump with screened fittings to keep the oil in a contained area. Also the tank is more of a racing-style tank that swirls the oil around the perimeter, deaerates it, and keeps it from sloshing up the sides. The third stage adds a secondary scavenge pump that can actually pull a good vacuum on the pan helping in scavenging and ring sealing. The factory gerotor pump is not strong enough to pull a vacuum on the pan.
Low oil pressure in the first session was because material was wiped away from the bearings and increases the clearance. Larger clearances means more oil flow. All things being equal, when flow goes up, pressure goes down. Compare a regular garden hose to a garden hose with your thumb over it. With your thumb over the end is like a bearing with a tight tolerance. Pressure is very high. You wouldn't want to put your mouth up to it and take a drink. Removing your thumb increases water flow and pressure goes down enough so you can take a drink. On the second session the bearings were already damaged and heat from friction builds up enough to fuse the bearings to the crank.
The post by forum member Dreamin likely went a long way in this regard.
To find out now that a larger tank may actually give a false sense of security in those cars which have brake, suspension and tire modifications, is a vital piece of information in getting to the bottom (no pun intended) of some of these engine failures due to oil starvation.
Unacceptable inmho. With every day that goes by, i cant help but have to shake my head in disgust. Quite possibly the most unreliable "track" car ever built.
Best performance vehicle i have ever owned for the money? 100%. But i did not invest all this money into a Z06 to cruise it down the strip on sunday afternoons, nor lounge it out at the local car show. Nor shake in my boots every time i WOT. I want a "track" car that i can beat the **** out of AND drive home without having to cough up $14000.
And for anyone in denial that thinks... OH it just needs a bigger and better oiling system, or built heads. Or it blew because it was modified or, or, or..... Your WRONG. My Z06 and your Z06 should not need ANYTHING to be a reliable "track" car.
I apologize ahead of time for anyone i have offended, but this does it for me. And frankly makes me furious since the Z06 is my dream car and i never wanted to sell it for anything but, its just not worth it.
How many ACR Vipers have these issues? They come with super sticky tires, harnesses and a huge spoiler for @#%$$@ sucks. MOPAR and SVT FTW. GM do yourself a favor and get some REAL engineers.
CIAO.
Best performance vehicle i have ever owned for the money? 100%. But i did not invest all this money into a Z06 to cruise it down the strip on sunday afternoons, nor lounge it out at the local car show. Nor shake in my boots every time i WOT. I want a "track" car that i can beat the **** out of AND drive home without having to cough up $14000.
And for anyone in denial that thinks... OH it just needs a bigger and better oiling system, or built heads. Or it blew because it was modified or, or, or..... Your WRONG. My Z06 and your Z06 should not need ANYTHING to be a reliable "track" car.
I apologize ahead of time for anyone i have offended, but this does it for me. And frankly makes me furious since the Z06 is my dream car and i never wanted to sell it for anything but, its just not worth it.
How many ACR Vipers have these issues? They come with super sticky tires, harnesses and a huge spoiler for @#%$$@ sucks. MOPAR and SVT FTW. GM do yourself a favor and get some REAL engineers.
CIAO.
Hate to admit but I kind of agree........for this reason, my mods are minimal, a few cosmetics and at most, cai and tune. I promised myself I would not dump tons of cash into this one as I've dumped plenty into past vehicles only to get 10 cents back on the dollar..........instead I'll save my bucks for a ZR1, although I admit and posted, the Z06 is a better looking car.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1579119348
I am glad to hear that GM is covering the engine in the original poster's car, and I thank Jason for his theory and his explanation as to what likely happened in this particular instance. It certainly sheds light on some of these instances and why or how they occur.....even with improvements to the stock oiling system, if the car has been mildly modified.
However I cannot help but recall your post when I started a thread documenting STOCK LS7 failures.
While this car was not stock, and will not go into the database as a stock engine failure, it is still good to:
1. Hear Jason's input on this issue and how the larger capacity sump tank does not completely address the problem.
2. See that people such as yourself, are actually now taking heed when these reports come up, as opposed to attacking, when some of these failures are described. It is also refreshing to see that , people such as yourself, who accused those of "stirring up crap" when these issues were pointed to, are now actually formulating a plan of some sort, be that trading up for a ZR1, in your case, changing oils, removing heads, whatever, as opposed to attacking those who report these issues on the occasions when they occur.
There was no need then or now to shoot the messenger.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 02-02-2012 at 11:25 PM.
02-02-2012, 11:32 PM
#42
The problem with modding is that for the most part, you get 0%-10% back on the cost of mods no matter who does them. You "may" find someone who appreciates what you've done and will give you pennies on the dollar for your effort$ but that's about it. 99% of high performance car buyers want bone stock, low mileage vehicles and will actually deduct for mods of any kind.
Bottom line, if you have a $50K dollar car and throw $10K, $20K, $30K into it, it's still a $50K dollar car.
Now I know RedZ4me already knows this but as an example for others that may be on the fence here, this is a list of what I got for just under $40K plus my '08Z:
1. brand new '10 ZR1 -------------------------
2. 638HP/604TQ LS9 ---------------------------
3. carbon ceramic brembos --------------------
4. magnetic selective ride with PTM -----------
5. exposed/cleared carbon ---------------------
6. 19/20 wheels with michelin PS2 ZPs -------
7. dual power seats with lumbar adjustments
8. power hatch assist ---------------------------
9. bluetooth -------------------------------------
10. amazing exhaust tone ----------------------
11. 3/36 and 5/100 warranty-------------------
12. 0% for 72 months---------------------------
This was a no-brainer for me
However the thing which has me leery with regard to this approach, is that some of the same things, which are thought by some to be the the root cause of failure in some of the LS7s, also exist in the LS9.
For example, the same tank which is in the 2009 Z06 is in the ZR1.
That makes me wonder had this car been a ZR1 with the same few mods on it that johnnywoz had on his car, would it too have failed due to oil starvation.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 02-02-2012 at 11:34 PM.
02-03-2012, 12:34 AM
#43
Interesting read in that many no doubt were of the opinion that an increased capacity oil tank, either stock or aftermarket, offered a great deal of security on the road course.
While this car was not stock, and will not go into the database as a stock engine failure, it is still good to:
1. Hear Jason's input on this issue and how the larger capacity sump tank does not completely address the problem.
While this car was not stock, and will not go into the database as a stock engine failure, it is still good to:
1. Hear Jason's input on this issue and how the larger capacity sump tank does not completely address the problem.
As a matter of fact, I'd wager that he has less grip than the Z06s being regularly tested with those Pilot Sport Cup tires.
If the only upgrading the tank isn't a viable solution, then why are those Z07/ZR1s able to run those sticky tires without any problems?
I was hoping just to run an upgraded LPE tank to fix the oil starvation but I'm afraid there may be more to be done than I thought.
02-03-2012, 07:25 AM
#44
_"SCOTT"_
As per usual, you make a great point.
However the thing which has me leery with regard to this approach, is that some of the same things, which are thought by some to be the the root cause of failure in some of the LS7s, also exist in the LS9.
For example, the same tank which is in the 2009 Z06 is in the ZR1.
That makes me wonder had this car been a ZR1 with the same few mods on it that johnnywoz had on his car, would it too have failed due to oil starvation.
However the thing which has me leery with regard to this approach, is that some of the same things, which are thought by some to be the the root cause of failure in some of the LS7s, also exist in the LS9.
For example, the same tank which is in the 2009 Z06 is in the ZR1.
That makes me wonder had this car been a ZR1 with the same few mods on it that johnnywoz had on his car, would it too have failed due to oil starvation.
Not sure what the root cause of the failure was in this case but those are just three more differences that "could" help alleviate potential failures of this nature.
02-03-2012, 08:22 AM
#45
Racer
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As per usual, you make a great point.
However the thing which has me leery with regard to this approach, is that some of the same things, which are thought by some to be the the root cause of failure in some of the LS7s, also exist in the LS9.
For example, the same tank which is in the 2009 Z06 is in the ZR1.
That makes me wonder had this car been a ZR1 with the same few mods on it that johnnywoz had on his car, would it too have failed due to oil starvation.
However the thing which has me leery with regard to this approach, is that some of the same things, which are thought by some to be the the root cause of failure in some of the LS7s, also exist in the LS9.
For example, the same tank which is in the 2009 Z06 is in the ZR1.
That makes me wonder had this car been a ZR1 with the same few mods on it that johnnywoz had on his car, would it too have failed due to oil starvation.
02-03-2012, 08:37 AM
#46
Le Mans Master
Amazing how attitudes change, isn't it Red Z?
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...post1579119348
I am glad to hear that GM is covering the engine in the original poster's car, and I thank Jason for his theory and his explanation as to what likely happened in this particular instance. It certainly sheds light on some of these instances and why or how they occur.....even with improvements to the stock oiling system, if the car has been mildly modified.
However I cannot help but recall your post when I started a thread documenting STOCK LS7 failures.
While this car was not stock, and will not go into the database as a stock engine failure, it is still good to:
1. Hear Jason's input on this issue and how the larger capacity sump tank does not completely address the problem.
2. See that people such as yourself, are actually now taking heed when these reports come up, as opposed to attacking, when some of these failures are described. It is also refreshing to see that , people such as yourself, who accused those of "stirring up crap" when these issues were pointed to, are now actually formulating a plan of some sort, be that trading up for a ZR1, in your case, changing oils, removing heads, whatever, as opposed to attacking those who report these issues on the occasions when they occur.
There was no need then or now to shoot the messenger.
02-03-2012, 09:11 AM
#47
The fact the we as consumers have to figure this out, and play russian rulet with the LS7 is a real kick in the *****. The one thing I can add tho is this. I'm a member of a Corvette club (very laid back with no tracked cars that I kow of) with C6Z06s on the roster, and I have gone as far as speaking to a friend of mine who is the shop forman at my local dealer. The club has never had any issues with any of the Z06s that I have heard of, and the service tech didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned dropped valves in the LS7 (or should I say he hasn't had to deal with any). You can imagine my suprise.
I have never tracked any of my Vettes and for sure wont track my Z now, if I ever had a mind to, that ship has sailed. So, now the decisions will be either to punch the car off (mine isn't paid for, I have only had it for 18 months) for a ZR1 (this car far exceeds my wife approved "toy" budget), or deal with the task of fixing my engine that hasn't broken yet, and may not. Another route would be to continue on as is and just enjoy the car the best I can with the info sitting in the back of my mind, and hope it doesn't happen to me. I really have no interest in sticking my head in the sand.... As I have said before I believe a trip to Katech may be in my future.
I have never tracked any of my Vettes and for sure wont track my Z now, if I ever had a mind to, that ship has sailed. So, now the decisions will be either to punch the car off (mine isn't paid for, I have only had it for 18 months) for a ZR1 (this car far exceeds my wife approved "toy" budget), or deal with the task of fixing my engine that hasn't broken yet, and may not. Another route would be to continue on as is and just enjoy the car the best I can with the info sitting in the back of my mind, and hope it doesn't happen to me. I really have no interest in sticking my head in the sand.... As I have said before I believe a trip to Katech may be in my future.
02-03-2012, 09:56 AM
#48
Same tank but the ZR1 has a higher capacity oil pump, piston squirters and a different oil cooler that was added to '10 or '11+ Z06's.
Not sure what the root cause of the failure was in this case but those are just three more differences that "could" help alleviate potential failures of this nature.
Not sure what the root cause of the failure was in this case but those are just three more differences that "could" help alleviate potential failures of this nature.
Piston squirters are there to lower the piston temps, not for lubrication value.
The oil sump capacity is the same.
The oil cooler's starting with 2009+ LS7's (IIRC) are the same as the LS9, to get the oil up to temps faster and for more temp stability.
This leads us to the oil pump assembly. If the higher volume pump also draws air from lack of oil in the pan, it will starve the bearings of oil as well...regardless if it provided a greater "volume" of oil to the bearing surfaces.
So, the question is for me....unless there was a significant enhancement for the LS9 motor to get away from this percieved oil starvation issue, are ANY of the oil sumped cars in danger of this oil starvation issue when tracked ???????
02-03-2012, 10:32 AM
#49
Safety Car
All good points, but if what Katech Jason has said is true, that the oil pump pickup is uncovering from the oil supply in the pan, unless the LS9 has a different pan assembly that get's away from this issue I'd suspect the ZR1's that ever get tracked MAY see this same phenomenom.
Piston squirters are there to lower the piston temps, not for lubrication value.
The oil sump capacity is the same.
The oil cooler's starting with 2009+ LS7's (IIRC) are the same as the LS9, to get the oil up to temps faster and for more temp stability.
This leads us to the oil pump assembly. If the higher volume pump also draws air from lack of oil in the pan, it will starve the bearings of oil as well...regardless if it provided a greater "volume" of oil to the bearing surfaces.
So, the question is for me....unless there was a significant enhancement for the LS9 motor to get away from this percieved oil starvation issue, are ANY of the oil sumped cars in danger of this oil starvation issue when tracked ???????
Piston squirters are there to lower the piston temps, not for lubrication value.
The oil sump capacity is the same.
The oil cooler's starting with 2009+ LS7's (IIRC) are the same as the LS9, to get the oil up to temps faster and for more temp stability.
This leads us to the oil pump assembly. If the higher volume pump also draws air from lack of oil in the pan, it will starve the bearings of oil as well...regardless if it provided a greater "volume" of oil to the bearing surfaces.
So, the question is for me....unless there was a significant enhancement for the LS9 motor to get away from this percieved oil starvation issue, are ANY of the oil sumped cars in danger of this oil starvation issue when tracked ???????
I don't see how you could totally drain 8.5qt of oil from the tank all in the motor without having other major issues like oil puking out the PCV and the crank sloshing into it...
Maybe the tank design is letting aerated oil going into the system, this is more plausible. One way to resolve that would be to add a bigger capacity tank which would give the oil more time to get rid of any air, but to seize bearings like that, there's something else going on.
02-03-2012, 10:37 AM
#50
Wait a minute, the pan holds little oil compared to the tank, so even if the oil pick up where to uncover briefly, how would it starve the engine since "fresh" oil goes from the tank to the motor, then to the pan to get picked up and re-circulated?
I don't see how you could totally drain 8.5qt of oil from the tank all in the motor without having other major issues like oil puking out the PCV and the crank sloshing into it...
Maybe the tank design is letting aerated oil going into the system, this is more plausible. One way to resolve that would be to add a bigger capacity tank which would give the oil more time to get rid of any air, but to seize bearings like that, there's something else going on.
I don't see how you could totally drain 8.5qt of oil from the tank all in the motor without having other major issues like oil puking out the PCV and the crank sloshing into it...
Maybe the tank design is letting aerated oil going into the system, this is more plausible. One way to resolve that would be to add a bigger capacity tank which would give the oil more time to get rid of any air, but to seize bearings like that, there's something else going on.
"The oil pan has ramps in it and a wet sump-style pickup tube. Under braking and or high g cornering on cars that are more capable than the factory intended, oil can slosh up these ramps and starve the pickup. When the pickup is starved you have until the dry sump tank empties before you starve the engine. The ARE pan has a captured sump with screened fittings to keep the oil in a contained area. Also the tank is more of a racing-style tank that swirls the oil around the perimeter, deaerates it, and keeps it from sloshing up the sides. The third stage adds a secondary scavenge pump that can actually pull a good vacuum on the pan helping in scavenging and ring sealing. The factory gerotor pump is not strong enough to pull a vacuum on the pan. "
I believe the OP's car was stated as being an 09, which already has the 10.5 quart sump assembly. I also believe that Katech Jason commented that while the enhanced volume of oil contained in the larger sump reservoir was a plus, this in itself does not cure the oil starvation issue in these extreme high g load turns....and appears to be born out by what the OP has experieinced.
IMHO, of course.
Last edited by FNBADAZ06; 02-03-2012 at 10:41 AM.
02-03-2012, 11:03 AM
#51
_"SCOTT"_
All good points, but if what Katech Jason has said is true, that the oil pump pickup is uncovering from the oil supply in the pan, unless the LS9 has a different pan assembly that get's away from this issue I'd suspect the ZR1's that ever get tracked MAY see this same phenomenom.
...but the oil focused on the pistons can't help but be splashed around in there helping to lubricate?...
It's tough to say, but in any case the more safety nets you have to fall into the better.
I guess we'll never know until we see toasted ZR1s...
02-03-2012, 11:08 AM
#52
Jason is making an educated guess as to what "may" have happened and I agree that he's one of the most qualified here to do so.
Thought it was '10...thanks.
The problem for the OP and others may be cumulative, which in that case the slight differences mentioned above "may" help.
It's tough to say, but in any case the more safety nets you have to fall into the better.
I guess we'll never know until we see toasted ZR1s...
Thought it was '10...thanks.
The problem for the OP and others may be cumulative, which in that case the slight differences mentioned above "may" help.
It's tough to say, but in any case the more safety nets you have to fall into the better.
I guess we'll never know until we see toasted ZR1s...
This oil starvation issue has been an issue I've read about ever since I purchased my Z06 (for extreme track use, that is).My point in all this....If the underlying issue is what Katech Jason is suggesting, unless the LS3/LS9 oil sumped versions of these motors have had a significant enhancement in the oil system, they would ultimately share the same fate as the LS7 motor.
People who would pass up the Z06 LS7 powered car for the ZR1 LS9 powered car would have the same defenciencies
02-03-2012, 12:26 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
Ok, after watching the video I now understand how the oil system works. Oil (and even air/oil) is sucked out of the pan by one stage of the pump, where it is routed under pressure to inside the tank, where it is dumped at the top. The oil then works it's way back to the bottom of the tank where it is then pulled into the engine to the second stage of the oil pump that feeds the engine.
Here's my questions:
1. How long would it take, assuming the oil pick up tube is exposed to nothing but air, for the oil pump to empty the tank? That's alot of oil.
2. And if that is happening (the tank is now empty), where did all that oil go? Is it physically possible to fill the engine with 10.5 qts of oil and still not get any to the oil pick up tube?
I dont' doubt that oil starvation is happening, I just can't see how it occurs.
Here's my questions:
1. How long would it take, assuming the oil pick up tube is exposed to nothing but air, for the oil pump to empty the tank? That's alot of oil.
2. And if that is happening (the tank is now empty), where did all that oil go? Is it physically possible to fill the engine with 10.5 qts of oil and still not get any to the oil pick up tube?
I dont' doubt that oil starvation is happening, I just can't see how it occurs.
02-03-2012, 12:52 PM
#54
Burning Brakes
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It is a perfectly good car as-is. This car had modified suspension, brakes, and powertrain components. Outside of the package GM proofed out. When you start adding braking and grip, you increased the cornering ability of the car and oil starvation can be a problem in high g cornering.
We are all very fortunate that Jason and other highly knowledgeable people opt to participate in these discussions. Where else, can we get this type of education?
And it is in the quest of information/education that I ask the following which relates to Jason's post above. Clearly, what he is saying makes perfect sense. If we are substantially changing the package that GM proofed out, we could not reasonably expect to have the same longevity and reliability as was originally envisioned.
But this is where I am very confused. The OP improved the quality of his tires from the GY OEMs, made some handling improvements (DRM Bilsteins), some brake improvements and some pretty minor power upgrades. Jason is saying that these changes put him outside the package that GM proofed out.
Well, ok then. But...the latest '12 Z06 can be had with Pilot Sport Cup tires, the ZR1 brakes, MRC shocks and PTM. Taken together, these are substantial traction, handling and braking improvements over what is on my '10 Z, YET the '12 version apparently has no changes in its oiling system or engine changes?
So, it would seem that GM is confident enough to run this car at the 'Ring with no ill effects, despite the fact it has the highest handling limits of any Z previously produced. How can this car survive without problems?
I have awapped to the DRM Bilsteins and will shortly be changing to the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires. Why should I have to worry about these changes if GM does not seem to?
02-03-2012, 02:07 PM
#55
The Consigliere
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Credit to the OP for his attitude. And I wish you all the best in this adventure.
And thanks to Jason for weighing in.
We haven't seen LS9 failures on the track. Perhaps the different oil pump and piston oil squirters provide benefit to main bearing lubrication. Or perhaps there simply isn't a large enough sample size of LS9s running around yet. I dunno. It is interesting, tho, that there are numerous LS9s getting pushed pretty hard and we haven't heard of track related deaths. Again, maybe it's just b/c there aren't as many of them.
And thanks to Jason for weighing in.
We haven't seen LS9 failures on the track. Perhaps the different oil pump and piston oil squirters provide benefit to main bearing lubrication. Or perhaps there simply isn't a large enough sample size of LS9s running around yet. I dunno. It is interesting, tho, that there are numerous LS9s getting pushed pretty hard and we haven't heard of track related deaths. Again, maybe it's just b/c there aren't as many of them.
02-03-2012, 03:09 PM
#56
Le Mans Master
Credit to the OP for his attitude. And I wish you all the best in this adventure.
And thanks to Jason for weighing in.
We haven't seen LS9 failures on the track. Perhaps the different oil pump and piston oil squirters provide benefit to main bearing lubrication. Or perhaps there simply isn't a large enough sample size of LS9s running around yet. I dunno. It is interesting, tho, that there are numerous LS9s getting pushed pretty hard and we haven't heard of track related deaths. Again, maybe it's just b/c there aren't as many of them.
And thanks to Jason for weighing in.
We haven't seen LS9 failures on the track. Perhaps the different oil pump and piston oil squirters provide benefit to main bearing lubrication. Or perhaps there simply isn't a large enough sample size of LS9s running around yet. I dunno. It is interesting, tho, that there are numerous LS9s getting pushed pretty hard and we haven't heard of track related deaths. Again, maybe it's just b/c there aren't as many of them.
02-03-2012, 05:48 PM
#57
Credit to the OP for his attitude. And I wish you all the best in this adventure.
And thanks to Jason for weighing in.
We haven't seen LS9 failures on the track. Perhaps the different oil pump and piston oil squirters provide benefit to main bearing lubrication. Or perhaps there simply isn't a large enough sample size of LS9s running around yet. I dunno. It is interesting, tho, that there are numerous LS9s getting pushed pretty hard and we haven't heard of track related deaths. Again, maybe it's just b/c there aren't as many of them.
And thanks to Jason for weighing in.
We haven't seen LS9 failures on the track. Perhaps the different oil pump and piston oil squirters provide benefit to main bearing lubrication. Or perhaps there simply isn't a large enough sample size of LS9s running around yet. I dunno. It is interesting, tho, that there are numerous LS9s getting pushed pretty hard and we haven't heard of track related deaths. Again, maybe it's just b/c there aren't as many of them.
02-03-2012, 05:57 PM
#58
The fact the we as consumers have to figure this out, and play russian rulet with the LS7 is a real kick in the *****. The one thing I can add tho is this. I'm a member of a Corvette club (very laid back with no tracked cars that I kow of) with C6Z06s on the roster, and I have gone as far as speaking to a friend of mine who is the shop forman at my local dealer. The club has never had any issues with any of the Z06s that I have heard of, and the service tech didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned dropped valves in the LS7 (or should I say he hasn't had to deal with any). You can imagine my suprise.
I have never tracked any of my Vettes and for sure wont track my Z now, if I ever had a mind to, that ship has sailed. So, now the decisions will be either to punch the car off (mine isn't paid for, I have only had it for 18 months) for a ZR1 (this car far exceeds my wife approved "toy" budget), or deal with the task of fixing my engine that hasn't broken yet, and may not. Another route would be to continue on as is and just enjoy the car the best I can with the info sitting in the back of my mind, and hope it doesn't happen to me. I really have no interest in sticking my head in the sand.... As I have said before I believe a trip to Katech may be in my future.
I have never tracked any of my Vettes and for sure wont track my Z now, if I ever had a mind to, that ship has sailed. So, now the decisions will be either to punch the car off (mine isn't paid for, I have only had it for 18 months) for a ZR1 (this car far exceeds my wife approved "toy" budget), or deal with the task of fixing my engine that hasn't broken yet, and may not. Another route would be to continue on as is and just enjoy the car the best I can with the info sitting in the back of my mind, and hope it doesn't happen to me. I really have no interest in sticking my head in the sand.... As I have said before I believe a trip to Katech may be in my future.
02-03-2012, 06:01 PM
#59
Racer
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Ok, after watching the video I now understand how the oil system works. Oil (and even air/oil) is sucked out of the pan by one stage of the pump, where it is routed under pressure to inside the tank, where it is dumped at the top. The oil then works it's way back to the bottom of the tank where it is then pulled into the engine to the second stage of the oil pump that feeds the engine.
Here's my questions:
1. How long would it take, assuming the oil pick up tube is exposed to nothing but air, for the oil pump to empty the tank? That's alot of oil.
2. And if that is happening (the tank is now empty), where did all that oil go? Is it physically possible to fill the engine with 10.5 qts of oil and still not get any to the oil pick up tube?
I dont' doubt that oil starvation is happening, I just can't see how it occurs.
Here's my questions:
1. How long would it take, assuming the oil pick up tube is exposed to nothing but air, for the oil pump to empty the tank? That's alot of oil.
2. And if that is happening (the tank is now empty), where did all that oil go? Is it physically possible to fill the engine with 10.5 qts of oil and still not get any to the oil pick up tube?
I dont' doubt that oil starvation is happening, I just can't see how it occurs.
I have been following this thread with considerable interest, as the owner of a '10 Z06, who has made minor mods, and is interested in doing limited number of track events.
We are all very fortunate that Jason and other highly knowledgeable people opt to participate in these discussions. Where else, can we get this type of education?
And it is in the quest of information/education that I ask the following which relates to Jason's post above. Clearly, what he is saying makes perfect sense. If we are substantially changing the package that GM proofed out, we could not reasonably expect to have the same longevity and reliability as was originally envisioned.
But this is where I am very confused. The OP improved the quality of his tires from the GY OEMs, made some handling improvements (DRM Bilsteins), some brake improvements and some pretty minor power upgrades. Jason is saying that these changes put him outside the package that GM proofed out.
Well, ok then. But...the latest '12 Z06 can be had with Pilot Sport Cup tires, the ZR1 brakes, MRC shocks and PTM. Taken together, these are substantial traction, handling and braking improvements over what is on my '10 Z, YET the '12 version apparently has no changes in its oiling system or engine changes?
So, it would seem that GM is confident enough to run this car at the 'Ring with no ill effects, despite the fact it has the highest handling limits of any Z previously produced. How can this car survive without problems?
I have awapped to the DRM Bilsteins and will shortly be changing to the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires. Why should I have to worry about these changes if GM does not seem to?
We are all very fortunate that Jason and other highly knowledgeable people opt to participate in these discussions. Where else, can we get this type of education?
And it is in the quest of information/education that I ask the following which relates to Jason's post above. Clearly, what he is saying makes perfect sense. If we are substantially changing the package that GM proofed out, we could not reasonably expect to have the same longevity and reliability as was originally envisioned.
But this is where I am very confused. The OP improved the quality of his tires from the GY OEMs, made some handling improvements (DRM Bilsteins), some brake improvements and some pretty minor power upgrades. Jason is saying that these changes put him outside the package that GM proofed out.
Well, ok then. But...the latest '12 Z06 can be had with Pilot Sport Cup tires, the ZR1 brakes, MRC shocks and PTM. Taken together, these are substantial traction, handling and braking improvements over what is on my '10 Z, YET the '12 version apparently has no changes in its oiling system or engine changes?
So, it would seem that GM is confident enough to run this car at the 'Ring with no ill effects, despite the fact it has the highest handling limits of any Z previously produced. How can this car survive without problems?
I have awapped to the DRM Bilsteins and will shortly be changing to the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires. Why should I have to worry about these changes if GM does not seem to?
Wait a minute, the pan holds little oil compared to the tank, so even if the oil pick up where to uncover briefly, how would it starve the engine since "fresh" oil goes from the tank to the motor, then to the pan to get picked up and re-circulated?
I don't see how you could totally drain 8.5qt of oil from the tank all in the motor without having other major issues like oil puking out the PCV and the crank sloshing into it...
Maybe the tank design is letting aerated oil going into the system, this is more plausible. One way to resolve that would be to add a bigger capacity tank which would give the oil more time to get rid of any air, but to seize bearings like that, there's something else going on.
I don't see how you could totally drain 8.5qt of oil from the tank all in the motor without having other major issues like oil puking out the PCV and the crank sloshing into it...
Maybe the tank design is letting aerated oil going into the system, this is more plausible. One way to resolve that would be to add a bigger capacity tank which would give the oil more time to get rid of any air, but to seize bearings like that, there's something else going on.
02-03-2012, 06:13 PM
#60
Racer
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Location: Mandeville LA
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Every good thread deserves pics, so here are a couple of the carnage...
Spun bearings
crank with a bearing welded to it
over heated piston rod
scored piston skirt, result of bearing coming apart
scored cylinder walls
bearing journal
Spun bearings
crank with a bearing welded to it
over heated piston rod
scored piston skirt, result of bearing coming apart
scored cylinder walls
bearing journal