[Z06] Who's running Ferrea hollow stemmed exhaust valves? F2042P
#61
Burning Brakes
For all who are interested, here is the entire quote from Richard@WCCH.... I think it's interesting stuff!
Quote:
We have definitely seen excessive wear in some LS7 exhaust guides. Mostly coming from engines with over 30k on the clock. We have seen some heads show inconsistent wear requiring only one or two guides needing replacement.
Quote:
We have definitely seen excessive wear in some LS7 exhaust guides. Mostly coming from engines with over 30k on the clock. We have seen some heads show inconsistent wear requiring only one or two guides needing replacement.
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too).
#62
Burning Brakes
#63
If the wear is inconsistent, and due to heat, I would want to start x-raying exhaust valves coming out of heads with a few bad cylinders, to see it they have different amounts of sodium in them. If it's a water jacket issue not getting enough water to the guide, it shouldn't move.
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too).
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too).
Not much more than that though, and not all even do that.
Not all measure at different locations within the guide, and even then, there was a thread in here inducating that doing that was time consuming.
So I don't know if we will get much more information regarding what you speak of than what we routinely get.
Worth a try though, but as with anything, time is money, and nothing is free.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 04-28-2014 at 09:41 AM.
#64
Melting Slicks
If the wear is inconsistent, and due to heat, I would want to start x-raying exhaust valves coming out of heads with a few bad cylinders, to see it they have different amounts of sodium in them. If it's a water jacket issue not getting enough water to the guide, it shouldn't move.
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too).
Quick, if all of these heads are getting fixed that the vendors claim they are fixing, maybe we can ask them to collect failure info on each head they redo, something simple like guide wear measurements, and visual remarks, like coking on cyl 2-5 exh. Then we can see if there is a correlation with bad guides and dropped valves (cause they probably get those heads too).
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research.
Cheers, Paul.
#65
The vender is in the business of making as much money as possible, spending time trying to analyse exactly what the problem is will cut into profits and has no upside, particularly when the 'fix' has already be sold over and over again. Why on earth would the vender want to find out what is really happening, there's too much potential of undermining years of selling the established 'fix'
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research.
Cheers, Paul.
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research.
Cheers, Paul.
#66
Melting Slicks
While my opinion of WCCH may seem somewhat harsh I stand by it, but clearly I would have to temper this opinion IF they actually supported the forum. Until such time I will not hold back, the continued misinformation they perpetuate about the OEM valve being the source of the LS7 problems makes this very easy to do.
Cheers, Paul.
#67
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Hey All,
I understand the desire to debate, but can we keep the subject on the Ferrea Hollow Stem Valves?
I started this thread because I was interested in running with these valves, assumedly everyone reading this thread already has made their mind up on what they wish to do with their engines so I don't think we need to argue over SS vs OEM valves, especially considering this thread isn't even about solid valves.
Finally, I did not start this thread to advertise WCCH or any other vendor, as I do not even plan to have my heads done there. So please, let's not debate wether this thread is allowing WWCH to rip off this forum, etc.
Thanks for all the input from everyone,
Joshua
I understand the desire to debate, but can we keep the subject on the Ferrea Hollow Stem Valves?
I started this thread because I was interested in running with these valves, assumedly everyone reading this thread already has made their mind up on what they wish to do with their engines so I don't think we need to argue over SS vs OEM valves, especially considering this thread isn't even about solid valves.
Finally, I did not start this thread to advertise WCCH or any other vendor, as I do not even plan to have my heads done there. So please, let's not debate wether this thread is allowing WWCH to rip off this forum, etc.
Thanks for all the input from everyone,
Joshua
#68
Like all LS7 exhaust valves I've seen personally, I'd suggest having the tips of the stems polished unless there is some engineering reason not to (the part that interfaces with the rocker tip).
#69
Pro
My issue with these Ferrea valves is that they are unproven in this application. Nobody really knows how they are going to pan out in the long run. They are lacking the NaK filling, that most hollow stemmed exhaust valves have. Will this make the valve heads run too hot in some applications? Who knows.
The problem here is, you're trading validated stock valves (the stock valves were run over hundreds of hours at WOT on a dyno at GM) for these Ferrea ones that were not. Anytime you introduce something new into the mix, you add uncontrolled variables. You could end up making things worse, not necessarily better. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't use these valves, or that they are bad...but these are factors that you need to take into consideration. Really, NOBODY knows for sure that there is anything wrong with the stock valves. 2-3 guys will tell you all day that there is, but they have no factual evidence to back this up. The evidence of failures isn't evidence of bad valves. Too many assumptions have been made, and some common sense has been disregarded, in an effort to force opinions on others. These guys wouldn't make it as CSIs. Good luck with your decision. I know it's not an easy one to make, in light of everything.
The problem here is, you're trading validated stock valves (the stock valves were run over hundreds of hours at WOT on a dyno at GM) for these Ferrea ones that were not. Anytime you introduce something new into the mix, you add uncontrolled variables. You could end up making things worse, not necessarily better. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't use these valves, or that they are bad...but these are factors that you need to take into consideration. Really, NOBODY knows for sure that there is anything wrong with the stock valves. 2-3 guys will tell you all day that there is, but they have no factual evidence to back this up. The evidence of failures isn't evidence of bad valves. Too many assumptions have been made, and some common sense has been disregarded, in an effort to force opinions on others. These guys wouldn't make it as CSIs. Good luck with your decision. I know it's not an easy one to make, in light of everything.
#70
Burning Brakes
My issue with these Ferrea valves is that they are unproven in this application. Nobody really knows how they are going to pan out in the long run. They are lacking the NaK filling, that most hollow stemmed exhaust valves have. Will this make the valve heads run too hot in some applications? Who knows.
The problem here is, you're trading validated stock valves (the stock valves were run over hundreds of hours at WOT on a dyno at GM) for these Ferrea ones that were not. Anytime you introduce something new into the mix, you add uncontrolled variables. You could end up making things worse, not necessarily better. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't use these valves, or that they are bad...but these are factors that you need to take into consideration. Really, NOBODY knows for sure that there is anything wrong with the stock valves. 2-3 guys will tell you all day that there is, but they have no factual evidence to back this up. The evidence of failures isn't evidence of bad valves. Too many assumptions have been made, and some common sense has been disregarded, in an effort to force opinions on others. These guys wouldn't make it as CSIs. Good luck with your decision. I know it's not an easy one to make, in light of everything.
The problem here is, you're trading validated stock valves (the stock valves were run over hundreds of hours at WOT on a dyno at GM) for these Ferrea ones that were not. Anytime you introduce something new into the mix, you add uncontrolled variables. You could end up making things worse, not necessarily better. Now I'm not saying I wouldn't use these valves, or that they are bad...but these are factors that you need to take into consideration. Really, NOBODY knows for sure that there is anything wrong with the stock valves. 2-3 guys will tell you all day that there is, but they have no factual evidence to back this up. The evidence of failures isn't evidence of bad valves. Too many assumptions have been made, and some common sense has been disregarded, in an effort to force opinions on others. These guys wouldn't make it as CSIs. Good luck with your decision. I know it's not an easy one to make, in light of everything.
#71
Le Mans Master
Just a thought I've had for a long time - seems Katech does alot with GM, whether it's support, R&D or whatever - right or wrong, this relationship would end quickly if they cut up their geometry, hollow Ti valves or anything else on the engineering side - def'ly wouldn't be a smart move. Not a knock towards Katech at all, they do some amazing work but just saying, business is first.
#72
Melting Slicks
#75
Burning Brakes
#76
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It's what I am using in my build. I hope to have the heads back and the car on the road by this weekend *Crosses fingers* Heads were supposed to have shipped out Friday or today for installation (I live on the East Coast so who knows. It may just be wishful thinking)
#77
#78
Safety Car
The vender is in the business of making as much money as possible, spending time trying to analyse exactly what the problem is will cut into profits and has no upside, particularly when the 'fix' has already be sold over and over again. Why on earth would the vender want to find out what is really happening, there's too much potential of undermining years of selling the established 'fix'
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research.
Cheers, Paul.
Companies like Katech will do extensive and expensive research to further the sport and indirectly their profits. A company like WCCH is simply in the business of slamming the easiest to access parts into old heads at as large a rate as possible, that is their business model, one which does not require research.
Cheers, Paul.
#79
Burning Brakes
I guess the naysayers think he's rolling the dice. I disagree just for the fact that this whole situation could and would put him out of business if he was wrong.
#80
Melting Slicks
Now look at a company like Katech and what they recommend. They know their cars are going to be track driven and hard. THEY would be in trouble and their reputation hurt badly if their builds were letting go. Neither of which is happening.
This mod is for the masses. Masses who probably wouldn't have failed anyhow on the stock parts WITH guide wear because they put 2K miles a year on theirs cars and it will never see the track or be driven hard. Look at the stats.... Look at where the failures happen. Look at how many stock daily driven garage queens have failed compared to the others.
Last edited by propain; 04-28-2014 at 07:16 PM.