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C6 Corvette ZR1 & Z06General info about GM’s Corvette Supercar, LS9 Corvette Technical Info, Performance Upgrades, Suspension Setup for Street or Track
I dare you to write another novel that insults my intelligence, insults the smart members on this board, inside a build thread that I put so much time and effort into. I saved every one of the emails you sent me where you **** talked basically every single customer you had. And me now, most likely. Accept what this is, someone sharing dyno results you disagree with, revise your product line, god forbid you actually send something to the spintron machine, then everyone wins. Hopefully more people are aware now of the results they can expect.
Josh
As an outsider looking in this sounds oddly personal to me. I hope you guys can work it out.
Your car made great power for an NA build (still does by most standards) and we all know with your knowledge and skill that it will again.
Regardless of what's going on with you and Tony now I still appreciate the original success of the build.
It's fine, this is exactly the blowback I was expecting. I have no axe to grind with Tony from MMS, nor Richard from WCCH, nor Kohle from AHP, nor Steve from ARH, nor Chris from FED. Nothing personal. People should know what to expect from vendors on here.
I’ve been following along. I’ve waited for weeks to see what numbers the new combo would make. It’s been enjoyabe for me to watch Josh try this and that, in hopes of better numbers, from my iPad. To see that you lost power this go around Josh, with a seemingly better flowing induction setup baffled me, until I looked at the graph. Obviously something is off here, there’s no question, for anybody watching. Springs? Maybe, but doubtful. As Tony politely mentioned, the springs would show their weakness...if they in fact are weak...at the top of the spectrum, not the low to middle of the road. What exactly it is, could be a number of things. I’m surprised that because of an unknown issue Josh, your ditching the entire top end and moving on. None of my business, for sure, just surprising. But before you bolt on another set, if I were you I’d track down the real issue here. Send Tony the springs, for starters. That’s a good place to start.
You are likely to find a bigger top end number with the AllPros. I admire their products, and I always have. I actually named my business (All Pro Electrucal Systemss, Inc.) after them, and even somewhat borrowed a partial of their logo as well 20 years ago when I started my current business. I say that to show nothing but love for them. But at the same time, in my opinion, which is meaningless here, your going away from what you started down this road for...DRIVEABILITY. You said in one of your earlier posts that you had previously overmodded a Mustang that you owned, and you refused to do that to this car. Now it seems like to me that your chasing a number at all cost. The All Pros flow big numbers up top, but with their larger port layout, your going to lose driveability down low. All I’m trying to do here is say a few words, hopefully trying to keep you from getting sick of all of this crap, when one day you hate your car because it drives bad, and sell it. Maybe I’m wrong...
And maybe somehow you’ve found an issue here in Tony’s heads that we can all learn from? I hate to see you just give up on a truly great performing package, because of an issue that’s easily fixed, once the problem is discovered.
If your absolutely set on selling what you have, and moving on, I applaud your enthusiasm for the search of power. I look forward to future updates and numbers.
The positive here is that an interested buyer can make my loss, their gain and pick up my heads and rockers at a discount. Maybe Tony is curious and wants to be part of the solution and buy them back himself. I'll inspect them for damage first and update the thread. I'm curious to learn why this combination of parts did not work past year one, he should be even more curious than I am. The mileage is actually 2,400 miles. But I'll leave it to someone else to investigate the cause. I would imagine Tony would be exploring this issue himself and not relying on his customers as guinea pigs as he "throws spaghetti at the wall, and waits for something to stick". This spaghetti stuck for awhile, and the springs wear down, then it floats the valves. 2,400 miles. This is acceptable and reasonable for Tony. It's not for me. I have no issue with that, it's not like he warrantied the combination. It's definitely something that future buyers might be curious about. Customers might ask... Am I a guinea pig? Will he stand behind his parts? Will he just offer to measure my springs? I'm not so sure what's so racy about the engine. I built it in my garage with a craftsman socket set. Compression yes, cam timing, yes, but nothing trick or exotic.
Holy cow this thread went south (ish). Thank you Josh for sharing all the inside information on Tony and that these heads are not the “be all-end all” LS7 heads as people have preached. I went with what I have head-wise because of cost (sold my heads to pay for the MSD) and if I had the money at the time, Mamo heads were first on the list. WCCH All Pro’s with T&D shaft-mount rockers are well out of my price range this year and if they work for you, that is a huge testament to reliability for them. I am glad I did not go with the Mamo set up due to how things have played out with you, not only the spring issue. Character plays big with me and with products I purchase and services I use. I hope to reach my goal with this combo I have but if not, in the coming year or so I may take the route you are if they work out for you. I may be the “chasing numbers” guy, at the end of the day reliability is number one.
Holy cow this thread went south (ish). Thank you Josh for sharing all the inside information on Tony and that these heads are not the “be all-end all” LS7 heads as people have preached. I went with what I have head-wise because of cost (sold my heads to pay for the MSD) and if I had the money at the time, Mamo heads were first on the list. WCCH All Pro’s with T&D shaft-mount rockers are well out of my price range this year and if they work for you, that is a huge testament to reliability for them. I am glad I did not go with the Mamo set up due to how things have played out with you, not only the spring issue. Character plays big with me and with products I purchase and services I use. I hope to reach my goal with this combo I have but if not, in the coming year or so I may take the route you are if they work out for you. I may be the “chasing numbers” guy, at the end of the day reliability is number one.
I'm glad it was useful info man. I'm flattered that you would consider checking out the All Pros once I test them out. Character means a lot for me too, and I think it means a lot to most guys in the Z06 community. Chasing numbers, we all have chased a number at some point, and it is good to have goals, it helps to focus our planning...nothing wrong with that. I'm not chasing a number at this point, I just want optimized, and I don't want to degrade the driving experience anymore.
I'm glad it was useful info man. I'm flattered that you would consider checking out the All Pros once I test them out. Character means a lot for me too, and I think it means a lot to most guys in the Z06 community. Chasing numbers, we all have chased a number at some point, and it is good to have goals, it helps to focus our planning...nothing wrong with that. I'm not chasing a number at this point, I just want optimized, and I don't want to degrade the driving experience anymore.
It definitely is useful to me and the others building their own C6Z’s. I am one to try to do it right the first time. I like my heads but I partially think they are holding me back and do not really perform as advertised. I have talked to different guys about PRC’s and some are saying they are holding me back. I personally do not know, I do know my valvetrain is not optimized and I do have future plans to possibly pull the heads and get them looked at by Brett at Pray Performance. I will look into having him work his port magic on them and lighten up the valvetrain. It really depends on how they work and what I want to spend, as I really just want a good strong above average car, The WCCH All Pro’s I have heard of and have not really heard any NA results from. As you have big build with these heads going on, it will be a great test for that setup in the reliability department.
To me I do not think the driving experience will be degraded much, if not any. All I know is that you will have one bad to the bone setup that should be optimized once all said and done!
Ben, I wouldn't draw immediate conclusions based on what has happened to Josh. Take Unreal's advice that he gave you earlier. It is good advice. There is no reason to continually change your mind based on what you read on the Corvette forum every day. Go out and drive your car and enjoy it, and change it as the circumstances require.
It is extremely unfortunate how things have turned and I for one applaud Josh for his openness and honesty. Josh has also helped me with some parts selection offline in the past and he is a stand-up guy. He is also extremely smart, meticulous and a great wrench. I also personally feel that he changes things so often because Josh enjoys the journey and we all benefit from his work. That said, I don't feel it is fair to toss Tony under the bus as a result of this debacle. Yes he is the consummate sales person and makes great effort to protect his reputation. But he also produces parts that work extremely well in hundreds and hundreds of applications. Josh has defended Tony for years on these forums against other's criticism and now the tables have turned as a result of this unfortunate circumstance. I am not one who changes his mind on the drop of a dime and neither should you. People spend years and years building a reputation and it isn't fair to them, or to anyone, to let one bad situation ruin a life-time of work. I also agree with Steve (Racingswh).
I'm not suggesting at all that Josh is doing this. He is simply reporting his results and I am grateful for it. But at the same time I consider a man's entire body of work before rendering final judgement on my choices.
I know that Josh and Tony are friends and the worst thing that can happen here is that a relationship is ruined - through no fault of Josh.
Exactly. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the open springs are all fatigued with a sizable difference vs the ones that sat closed. Even though he was "only" running ~500#s, over 2-3 years that will take its toll.
Checking the springs is common sense being cheap (in this case free) and often the culprit of valvetrain instability on aggressive setups.
You're ware this occurred in 12 months right? Not 2-3 years
Superior Automotive and their dyno is faulty. Along with the other Mamo customers complaining of valve float.
When you sold me the YT rockers the rocker stands collided with the rocker bodies. So i had to dremel the hell out of them just to fit. Then, it turns out that the Z depth of the rocker stand bolt hole was thousandths of an inch too close to the head and that the rocker stand would literally rip off. Whoops. So lets get YT to send out some different rocker stands with different bolts. And i'm the guinea pig.
Fast forward to Dec 2016 when my guides were so tight that I would have probably dropped an intake valve, and I have to send you my heads back because of your whoopsy oversight that valve guide clearance is important on LS7s and might be a good thing to check before shipping products out the door. So disaster averted, the heads get their guide bores honed a bit. Glad I wasn't your guinea pig on that one right?
Then I actually get to assembling the heads on the engine, and low and behold, the f'ing pushrods are colliding with the head. I take the time to open up the pushrod tubes, a service you "offered" to your customers after my heads were shipped out.
Then I ask for my heads back, I hound you for them, and you're waiting for the TFS logo to get machined off so your LOGO can be engraved on.
I've had to tweak and fit this combo to work, and never disclose those details in my build thread, and people have a right to know they are getting parts that are far from optimized.
Thank you for your super generous offer to measure my springs. I never would have thought to do that without your guidance.
I dare you to write another novel that insults my intelligence, insults the smart members on this board, inside a build thread that I put so much time and effort into. I saved every one of the emails you sent me where you **** talked basically every single customer you had. And me now, most likely. Accept what this is, someone sharing dyno results you disagree with, revise your product line, god forbid you actually send something to the spintron machine, then everyone wins. Hopefully more people are aware now of the results they can expect.
Josh
And this is the jist of it. Lets go ahead and call it what it is, people not wanting to accept failure of a setup due to bias and just make excuses.
This hobby to too damn expensive to have to do things twice, period. There's no excuse and the desire to not want to acknowledge mistakes, wrongs of F-Ups is the EXACT reason this S continues to occur to others.
Holy cow this thread went south (ish). Thank you Josh for sharing all the inside information on Tony and that these heads are not the “be all-end all” LS7 heads as people have preached. I went with what I have head-wise because of cost (sold my heads to pay for the MSD) and if I had the money at the time, Mamo heads were first on the list. WCCH All Pro’s with T&D shaft-mount rockers are well out of my price range this year and if they work for you, that is a huge testament to reliability for them. I am glad I did not go with the Mamo set up due to how things have played out with you, not only the spring issue. Character plays big with me and with products I purchase and services I use. I hope to reach my goal with this combo I have but if not, in the coming year or so I may take the route you are if they work out for you. I may be the “chasing numbers” guy, at the end of the day reliability is number one.
First, there needs to be more threads like this so that we are all educated on what works but more importantly, how the situation is treated when it doesn't or fails. I've had a well documented similar experience with FED and I
ll leave that at that. People need top know about this before they spend they're hard earned money on these parts.
Secondly, I was in the same boat as you and ready to go to a Mamo setup based upon Josh's experience, I didn't because some knowledgeable friends of mine pointed out indicators that I missed and said wait and see. Well, I waited and now I see. If/when I make a change, it will be All-Pros which ironically were my 1st choice but due to cost, I didnt
I learned along time ago to not chase numbers and just work towards a performance goal thusly, I couldn't honestly tell you what my car makes now and really dont care.
Thanks Josh for sharing your experience both positive and negative, more people should because I know there's stories out there
Last edited by Millenium Z06; 06-20-2018 at 08:52 AM.
It definitely is useful to me and the others building their own C6Z’s. I am one to try to do it right the first time. I like my heads but I partially think they are holding me back and do not really perform as advertised. I have talked to different guys about PRC’s and some are saying they are holding me back. I personally do not know, I do know my valvetrain is not optimized and I do have future plans to possibly pull the heads and get them looked at by Brett at Pray Performance. I will look into having him work his port magic on them and lighten up the valvetrain. It really depends on how they work and what I want to spend, as I really just want a good strong above average car, The WCCH All Pro’s I have heard of and have not really heard any NA results from. As you have big build with these heads going on, it will be a great test for that setup in the reliability department.
To me I do not think the driving experience will be degraded much, if not any. All I know is that you will have one bad to the bone setup that should be optimized once all said and done!
I dont believe they are holding you back, PRC are not ALL-Pros and IMO a few steps better than ported stock heads. I think the bigger issue is that people are unrealistic of the power they expect their combos to make and many dont realize how much effort it takes to make an honest 600+ wheel HP SAE (Not STD).
DO NOT spend the time and money to have them ported as they will likely preform worse, mine did. As Josh said, set a goal and make a plan on how to get there, heads are only one part of the equation, cam choice and induction are others factors.
Your car makes about the same as mine prior to a retune and a bigger TB, your heads can make power but I wouldn't spend 4-5K for another 20-25HP when you may already have that potential now.
Last edited by Millenium Z06; 06-20-2018 at 12:43 PM.
As an outsider looking in this sounds oddly personal to me. I hope you guys can work it out.
Your car made great power for an NA build (still does by most standards) and we all know with your knowledge and skill that it will again.
Regardless of what's going on with you and Tony now I still appreciate the original success of the build.
"Time, it wrecks everything that's good".
Well said. This has been a great thread and I happen to like both parties. I still hold out hope it turns out OK.
Where I work, we live by a saying, "In God we trust, all others must bring data." We didn't invent the saying, that belongs to W.E. Deming. Over the years I have come to believe in this philosophy "like the Gospel of Jesus Crist". In management and business, having reliable data separates emotion from decision making. Gathering reliable data is usually not cheap and often takes more time than managers want to devote to the activity, but a business today will attempt to survive without data-based decision making at its own peril.
You have an interesting point of view, opinion. But it sounds as though you are coming into this thread supporting the Almighty "Mamo"..
Put yourself in Josh's place for a minute... consider the dollars, time, R&D that he himself did with this build. Now that you have put yourself in his shoes, what is there really to gain sending Tony the springs..? Who's to say that he doesn't manipulate things to exonerate his possible/plausible responsibility for Josh's catastrophic failure.
I am surely one of the less knowledgeable members perhaps posting in this thread. But a blind man could tell of the valve float on that particular Dyno sheet. Those circumstances/conversations Josh mentioned with Tony speak volumes of his "true" feelings for those who dare speak against him.
He can go on and on about how he does all of the R&D for AFR and this that and the other. Yet Josh is still left with a broken, sidelined car.
Kudos to Josh for speaking his mind and his transparency.
Looking forward to watching his new build. I too am a fan of the ALL PRO's...
Originally Posted by Che70velle
I’ve been following along. I’ve waited for weeks to see what numbers the new combo would make. It’s been enjoyabe for me to watch Josh try this and that, in hopes of better numbers, from my iPad. To see that you lost power this go around Josh, with a seemingly better flowing induction setup baffled me, until I looked at the graph. Obviously something is off here, there’s no question, for anybody watching. Springs? Maybe, but doubtful. As Tony politely mentioned, the springs would show their weakness...if they in fact are weak...at the top of the spectrum, not the low to middle of the road. What exactly it is, could be a number of things. I’m surprised that because of an unknown issue Josh, your ditching the entire top end and moving on. None of my business, for sure, just surprising. But before you bolt on another set, if I were you I’d track down the real issue here. Send Tony the springs, for starters. That’s a good place to start.
You are likely to find a bigger top end number with the AllPros. I admire their products, and I always have. I actually named my business (All Pro Electrucal Systemss, Inc.) after them, and even somewhat borrowed a partial of their logo as well 20 years ago when I started my current business. I say that to show nothing but love for them. But at the same time, in my opinion, which is meaningless here, your going away from what you started down this road for...DRIVEABILITY. You said in one of your earlier posts that you had previously overmodded a Mustang that you owned, and you refused to do that to this car. Now it seems like to me that your chasing a number at all cost. The All Pros flow big numbers up top, but with their larger port layout, your going to lose driveability down low. All I’m trying to do here is say a few words, hopefully trying to keep you from getting sick of all of this crap, when one day you hate your car because it drives bad, and sell it. Maybe I’m wrong...
And maybe somehow you’ve found an issue here in Tony’s heads that we can all learn from? I hate to see you just give up on a truly great performing package, because of an issue that’s easily fixed, once the problem is discovered.
If your absolutely set on selling what you have, and moving on, I applaud your enthusiasm for the search of power. I look forward to future updates and numbers.
This hobby to too damn expensive to have to do things twice, period. There's no excuse and the desire to not want to acknowledge mistakes, wrongs of F-Ups is the EXACT reason this S continues to occur to others.
I think it's all relative. I look at my friend who's had 3 engine builds AND 4 transmissions in and out of his Viper ACR-X since July of last year with the most recent trans swap being yesterday. That for me, my time and my wallet would be excessive.
This thing with Josh's build and the possible reduction of performance from a wear item like a valve spring doesn't strike me as significant at all. It's certainly nothing I would ever call someone's character into question over.
My first build failed catastrophically after 1200 miles/20 hours of run time. Some of the components used were those from THE MOST trusted names in the industry assembled by a "professional" builder whatever good that did.
I don't and didn't harbor any animosity towards anyone because of the failure. I thought I had made all the right decisions to protect the engine from a dropped valve. In hindsight it's possible I would have been better off leaving the thing alone?
In any event I just moved forward and proceeded with another build that I am hoping holds together a little longer. No big deal if it doesn't. I will just build another since I have settled on the C6Z chassis as the one I want to develop.
I am fortunate to be in the position that I could choose anyone to do the next build. When it comes time because of his honesty and his transparency I will choose Tony.
I dont believe they are holding you back, PRC are not ALL-Pros and IMO a few steps better than ported stock heads. I think the bigger issue is that people are unrealistic of the power they expect they're combos to make and many dont realize how much effort it takes to make an honest 600+ wheel HP SAE (Not STD).
DO NOT spend the time and money to have them ported as they will likely preform worse, mine did. As Josh said, set a goal and make a plan on how to get there, heads are only one part of the equation, cam choice and induction are others factors.
Your car makes about the same as mine prior to a retune and a bigger TB, your heads can make power but I wouldn't spend 4-5K for another 20-25HP when you may already have that potential now.
I am doing the simple steps first and then mess with the heads. If I can make an honest 600 SAE I will be less likely to tear thing apart again lol. I have had a couple of guys tell me they are holding me back. If I am overly worried about it I will switch one day for more power. I know bumping compression and a lighter valvetrain will help without spending a ton.
I am doing the simple steps first and then mess with the heads. If I can make an honest 600 SAE I will be less likely to tear thing apart again lol. I have had a couple of guys tell me they are holding me back. If I am overly worried about it I will switch one day for more power. I know bumping compression and a lighter valvetrain will help without spending a ton.
You had your 285’s re-ported and they were worse?
Yes. Bought a 2nd pair, didn't touch them and put them on the car and picked up 40 whp throughout the rpm range. Don't touch them. For the money I had in them, I could have bought All-Pros but there was a shortage when I reheaded. Mast was 6 moths out and All Pro was 3.
Sold the ported pair to a guy that put them on a big inch motor, FED F'd those heads up hogging them out making them lazy on my motor. The heads flow close to TSP advertised numbers but you can't get caught up in peak flow, you need to focus on mid lift since the valve is there twice.
The heads aren't your issue, get a cam optimized for those heads and your intake.
I think it's all relative. I look at my friend who's had 3 engine builds AND 4 transmissions in and out of his Viper ACR-X since July of last year with the most recent trans swap being yesterday. That for me, my time and my wallet would be excessive.
This thing with Josh's build and the possible reduction of performance from a wear item like a valve spring doesn't strike me as significant at all. It's certainly nothing I would ever call someone's character into question over.
My first build failed catastrophically after 1200 miles/20 hours of run time. Some of the components used were those from THE MOST trusted names in the industry assembled by a "professional" builder whatever good that did.
I don't and didn't harbor any animosity towards anyone because of the failure. I thought I had made all the right decisions to protect the engine from a dropped valve. In hindsight it's possible I would have been better off leaving the thing alone?
In any event I just moved forward and proceeded with another build that I am hoping holds together a little longer. No big deal if it doesn't. I will just build another since I have settled on the C6Z chassis as the one I want to develop.
I am fortunate to be in the position that I could choose anyone to do the next build. When it comes time because of his honesty and his transparency I will choose Tony.
I hear what you're saying and I too had a catastrophic failure after putting a new erl motor in my car within 1200 or so Miles. Mine was due to the shop that Mill the head not completely cleaning them and letting trash go through the engine which wiped out all the bearings.
I did hold ill will because to me that's something that could have been and should have been caught and could have been avoided.
I do understand your point of view on this though this is a hobby where were pushing Parts past their original design and is a no warranty implied hobby, I understand that.
I also get what you're saying about your friend with the ACR, but I would also look at Mordeths comment about Josh and his willingness to experiment and try new things and actually enjoying modifying the car. I do not accept that spring failure which this appears to be, shouldn't be acceptable in that amount of time.
I also taking in consideration some of the other information that was not commonly known as far as how many times Josh had to send the heads back for issues that should have been checked before the heads ever left. This did not go as smooth as it first appeared, from what I understood and red in the above post, Josh sent the heads back at least twice maybe more for problems that should have been caught initially and weren't.
It also is annoying that people keep saying that this is normal wear and that over the course of 3 years this should not be abnormal despite the fact that you can go back and look at the thread and see that it was May of 2017 when he first fire this engine up.
I think it's reasonable to expect somebody with Josh's wrenching skills to know not to leave valve springs compressed on an assembled engine for extended period of time, I'm fairly certain he knows the practice of going out and rotating the engine over to relieve pressure on compressd valve springs or even take a pushrods and rocker arms off so the Springs can be in a relaxed position. For those reasons I do not buy this timeline or this excuse
Ben, I wouldn't draw immediate conclusions based on what has happened to Josh. Take Unreal's advice that he gave you earlier. It is good advice. There is no reason to continually change your mind based on what you read on the Corvette forum every day. Go out and drive your car and enjoy it, and change it as the circumstances require.
It is extremely unfortunate how things have turned and I for one applaud Josh for his openness and honesty. Josh has also helped me with some parts selection offline in the past and he is a stand-up guy. He is also extremely smart, meticulous and a great wrench. I also personally feel that he changes things so often because Josh enjoys the journey and we all benefit from his work. That said, I don't feel it is fair to toss Tony under the bus as a result of this debacle. Yes he is the consummate sales person and makes great effort to protect his reputation. But he also produces parts that work extremely well in hundreds and hundreds of applications. Josh has defended Tony for years on these forums against other's criticism and now the tables have turned as a result of this unfortunate circumstance. I am not one who changes his mind on the drop of a dime and neither should you. People spend years and years building a reputation and it isn't fair to them, or to anyone, to let one bad situation ruin a life-time of work. I also agree with Steve (Racingswh).
I'm not suggesting at all that Josh is doing this. He is simply reporting his results and I am grateful for it. But at the same time I consider a man's entire body of work before rendering final judgement on my choices.
I know that Josh and Tony are friends and the worst thing that can happen here is that a relationship is ruined - through no fault of Josh.
Sorry I missed this lol, I changed my mind basically if I went to a different head I would of went with the Mamo setup and now reliability is apparently lacking (or maybe just bad springs?). The last thing I really want to do is pull the heads because I do just want to drive the car lol. If I do anything to the heads next it will be when TSP comes out with their LS7 Roller Rockers. The pulling them ordeal is if I am not really happy with the power and if the funds allow.
Well said about Josh and Tony. Business can ruin friendships and it is unfortunate. I recently had my best friend work with me on a coating job and I had to go back and fix a ton of things. He does not work with me anymore and I do not hear anything from him. This is not the best situation but we live and learn.
Originally Posted by Millenium Z06
Yes. Bought a 2nd pair, didn't touch them and put them on the car and picked up 40 whp throughout the rpm range. Don't touch them. For the money I had in them, I could have bought All-Pros but there was a shortage when I reheaded. Mast was 6 moths out and All Pro was 3.
Sold the ported pair to a guy that put them on a big inch motor, FED F'd those heads up hogging them out making them lazy on my motor. The heads flow close to TSP advertised numbers but you can't get caught up in peak flow, you need to focus on mid lift since the valve is there twice.
The heads aren't your issue, get a cam optimized for those heads and your intake.
Based on things I have seen and heard, FED is not the best company to send things to. I may just save my money on the hogging out part then.
Unfortunately I have people tell me my cam is “ok” for my setup. That thing is the last thing I want to pull. If I do worry about heads down the road and have to mess with the cam I guess I will. The cam was supposed to work well and it does but is not optimal. I did get the heads and cam relatively cheap so I cannot complain too much lol.
Originally Posted by Millenium Z06
First, there needs to be more threads like this so that we are all educated on what works but more importantly, how the situation is treated when it doesn't or fails. I've had a well documented similar experience with FED and I
ll leave that at that. People need top know about this before they spend they're hard earned money on these parts.
Secondly, I was in the same boat as you and ready to go to a Mamo setup based upon Josh's experience, I didn't because some knowledgeable friends of mine pointed out indicators that I missed and said wait and see. Well, I waited and now I see. If/when I make a change, it will be All-Pros which ironically were my 1st choice but due to cost, I didnt
I learned along time ago to not chase numbers and just work towards a performance goal thusly, I couldn't honestly tell you what my car makes now and really dont care.
Thanks Josh for sharing your experience both positive and negative, more people should because I know there's stories out there
Dang, I missed this one as well.
+1 on a Head thread. It will save people a ton of time and money.
It does sound like we have the same thought process on heads haha. Price is crazy on it all but worth it if you plan on keeping the car forever and run it to the ground lol.
I guess I chase numbers lol, I want to see a true 600 rwhp SAE and see 160+ in the half-mile. I will probably never take my Z to the strip.
I dare you to write another novel that insults my intelligence, insults the smart members on this board, inside a build thread that I put so much time and effort into. I saved every one of the emails you sent me where you **** talked basically every single customer you had. And me now, most likely. Accept what this is, someone sharing dyno results you disagree with, revise your product line, god forbid you actually send something to the spintron machine, then everyone wins. Hopefully more people are aware now of the results they can expect.
Josh
I know of two individuals in TX who had "less than optimal" Dynojet SAE results on Mamo HCI (one of them on the same dyno I use) who were suppressed from posting their less than expected results online.
This is the reason I questioned some of these crazy power gains on Disney dynos and crazy -non standarized results from his combos.....like the claimed 654 from a week ago who he was quick to jump and defended/justify.
Its difficult to build, and build a reputation but doing so honestly is much more dificult.
How many times I asked him to do a back to back dyno test on his MSD port work? Cheap investment on a buisness in demostrating on how it delivered performance yet he never did such pointing at his costumes. Crazy 40+hp gains? I just SMH at it lol!
May fool the ones who dont know any better, or the koolaid drinkers but I have 25+ years of automotive experience and I have a good idea of what works and how it should perform.
Anyhow, Im looking foward on how your new combination develops and delivers!
I appreciate the comments here, all of them, even the ones that give me criticism. I'm not perfect.
One thing I don't think would be helpful in all of this is for Tony to investigate Tony's products, and then Tony finds Tony's products "not guilty". We see it all too often across things that are investigated internally. If someone can look at my results and not see valve float, then I don't know what to say. Or the fact that it's probably missing about 50rwhp from the bottom line.
677rwhp, lean, through stock mufflers
658rwhp, rich, big headers blowing into stock mufflers
646rwhp, same, same exhaust, G1Pro
xxxrwhp, same, same, Hi Ram SLIPS THE CLUTCH ON THE DYNO! Zero other changes. Making a **** ton of dynamic airflow and cylinder airmass, yes I have the logs
643rwhp, same, 3.5" exhaust, a super duper Mamo clutch, a bigger 108TB, Hi Ram.
Look at the torque building at 5100. Things were getting GOOD. Look at the fluctuation in hp, up and down 10rwhp, on SAE Smoothing 5. Smoothing means that the software is already averaging the data, less spikes. So on smoothing 5... That is real data. On E85 with solid timing, and octane with spark has the tendency to smooth the curve moreso than less octane and less timing. Torque should have carried flat from 5k to 6k, and with the Hi Ram, torque should have peaked a bit past 6K rpm as it did in the logs with cylinder airmass, hp should have peaked past 7k rpm 1100-1200 rpm after the tq peak. But something physical is happening in the valvetrain that is preventing full power. It could be valve bounce, lifter bounce, spring fatigue, etc etc.
That is the conversation we should be having, valve float, instead of mentioning "friends", such a distraction from the main point, and highly subjective. I'm also "friends" with my realtor, but only because the realtor really wants to earn a commission from me. See how strong that friendship is the moment I "don't recommend" her services to someone due to honest feedback. You can scroll through the comments yourself and watch Tony's "tone" change from supportive/sales pitchey to skepticism/fingerpointing to using "commonsense, cooler heads" kind of language. And of course, discussing valve float is speculative until a full, unbiased examination of the parts is done. And even if that happens, what then? Do I have to ship these components to a lab with a spintron machine, pay the huge fee myself? Personally I would rather look at things as an investment. I know I will need to swap out hardware to create VT stability. Every other engine guru recommends much more seat and open pressure, some say over 200lbs and 600 open. And this is a bad platform to reinvest in.
I'll follow up with some pictures as the parts come off. I'll probably start a build thread on the All Pros soon.
06-19-2018, 11:48 PM
