[Z06] Bauer Motorsports Build: WCCH All Pro 290, Solid Roller, ERL 454, 14:1 SCR
07-12-2018, 02:11 AM
#61
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I would use the largest diameter push rod that fits in the hole. Don't worry about weight of pushrod. Worry about weight on the valve side. Want to know why I don't use 1/2" diameter pushrods? Because they don't fit, otherwise I would. So I use 3/8" tapered with a .130 wall. The pushrod is the slower moving part of the valve train, so adding a tiny bit of weight here isn't a problem. You would much rather have a pushrod that does not deflect and maintains/spreads the load properly, in addition to the thickest wall possible to resist compression, even if heavier. This greatly assists in valve train stability. I realize you likely know all of this, but those are my personal thoughts.
I personally like Trend, and is what I use. Trend literally developed the Spintron machine in the 90's. Google "Bob Fox" from Trend and Randy Dorton from Hendrick Motorsports. But Manton and Smith Bros are also great and their turn around time on custom lengths seems to be faster than Trend. My Trend were also all custom length after very precise measurements by me due to the limited travel lifters I use (and obviously some other factors).
For oil, you should run Amsoil Dominator (or Zrod) 10w30. Message me your address and phone number and I will ship you a case on me.
I personally like Trend, and is what I use. Trend literally developed the Spintron machine in the 90's. Google "Bob Fox" from Trend and Randy Dorton from Hendrick Motorsports. But Manton and Smith Bros are also great and their turn around time on custom lengths seems to be faster than Trend. My Trend were also all custom length after very precise measurements by me due to the limited travel lifters I use (and obviously some other factors).
For oil, you should run Amsoil Dominator (or Zrod) 10w30. Message me your address and phone number and I will ship you a case on me.
I'm leaning towards Trend also, I'll do the biggest pushrod I can safely fit in the heads. The Trend pushrods look just awesome, I'll try to work with them to make some pushrods as close as possible to the measurements I come out with. I totally agree that strength and stiffness are the priorities and that weight takes a backseat to them. Richard mentioned how my engine will be likely to see 8000-8200 in the 1-2, and 2-3 shifts and I agree, based off testing and datalogs. I'll get those outliars in the log where revs went 500 rpm higher than my memory (or senses) told me. So I want the valvetrain to be built to support those instances of extreme revs even if the peak hp rpm is down around 7000-7500. Thanks for the great advice, as always.
Last edited by Josh B.; 07-12-2018 at 02:12 AM.
07-12-2018, 05:08 PM
#62
@Josh B, make sure that you change these valve springs every oil change
07-12-2018, 08:22 PM
#64
Drifting
I'm really blown away by your generosity, thank you so much and I can't wait to test out the Zrod oil!!
I'm leaning towards Trend also, I'll do the biggest pushrod I can safely fit in the heads. The Trend pushrods look just awesome, I'll try to work with them to make some pushrods as close as possible to the measurements I come out with. I totally agree that strength and stiffness are the priorities and that weight takes a backseat to them. Richard mentioned how my engine will be likely to see 8000-8200 in the 1-2, and 2-3 shifts and I agree, based off testing and datalogs. I'll get those outliars in the log where revs went 500 rpm higher than my memory (or senses) told me. So I want the valvetrain to be built to support those instances of extreme revs even if the peak hp rpm is down around 7000-7500. Thanks for the great advice, as always.
I'm leaning towards Trend also, I'll do the biggest pushrod I can safely fit in the heads. The Trend pushrods look just awesome, I'll try to work with them to make some pushrods as close as possible to the measurements I come out with. I totally agree that strength and stiffness are the priorities and that weight takes a backseat to them. Richard mentioned how my engine will be likely to see 8000-8200 in the 1-2, and 2-3 shifts and I agree, based off testing and datalogs. I'll get those outliars in the log where revs went 500 rpm higher than my memory (or senses) told me. So I want the valvetrain to be built to support those instances of extreme revs even if the peak hp rpm is down around 7000-7500. Thanks for the great advice, as always.
8k+? Holy cow, that RPM and lift will be killer. This may make you the NA King of C6Z's lol.
07-12-2018, 08:33 PM
#65
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
It should be a real screamer when it's tuned and dialed in. Seems like every time I think I've heard of the nastiest NA cars likely to come to an event....someone comes out of the wood work with a Level X build that is just insane. Hopefully I can grab a couple "fastest Naturally aspirated" wins but I have to earn them first. I'm very proud of the 3 plaques I have in my man cave. I'm making it my goal to hit 175mph with this build and I think I can make that a reality. We got 170.5 mph out of the last combo and that was at 658rwhp on the dynojet. I think we'll have the power to get to 175mph, even if it takes a few race events to perfect the cars prep and do some driver mod training. Hopefully with the right parts selected this time around the combo will be durable enough and reliable enough to consistently collect data and get incrementally better as the combo is dialed in.
07-12-2018, 10:00 PM
#66
Maybe you've already seen this, but if not, it's a pretty interesting read. Particularly since you're doing a high rpm build.
https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...s-race-engine/
https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...s-race-engine/
07-12-2018, 10:49 PM
#67
Drifting
It should be a real screamer when it's tuned and dialed in. Seems like every time I think I've heard of the nastiest NA cars likely to come to an event....someone comes out of the wood work with a Level X build that is just insane. Hopefully I can grab a couple "fastest Naturally aspirated" wins but I have to earn them first. I'm very proud of the 3 plaques I have in my man cave. I'm making it my goal to hit 175mph with this build and I think I can make that a reality. We got 170.5 mph out of the last combo and that was at 658rwhp on the dynojet. I think we'll have the power to get to 175mph, even if it takes a few race events to perfect the cars prep and do some driver mod training. Hopefully with the right parts selected this time around the combo will be durable enough and reliable enough to consistently collect data and get incrementally better as the combo is dialed in.
07-13-2018, 01:16 AM
#68
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Maybe you've already seen this, but if not, it's a pretty interesting read. Particularly since you're doing a high rpm build.
https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...s-race-engine/
https://www.lsxmag.com/tech-stories/...s-race-engine/
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nuke61 (07-13-2018)
07-13-2018, 01:32 AM
#69
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
She definitely will, I do understand about bigger NA builds coming out of nowhere though haha. I agree on setting your goal and shooting for it, 175 definitely is a reality. I think you may eclipse 700 on a dynojet with this combo. I will make an uneducated guess at 710 rwhp/623 rwtq when she is all done haha. From all the good I have heard of All-Pro's and SR setups, you will lay down good power. I do agree the first few events will be getting used to the new setup and I think in no time you will see 175 in the 1/2. I understand about durability and reliability!
07-13-2018, 02:03 AM
#70
Drifting
I think it would be bad luck to predict power output right now. I don't think it will be a challenge to get past 700rwhp on the dynojet, that's a pretty conservative estimate. Over 600rwtq would be awesome. The most torque I saw out of the previous combo (MSD, Mamo heads, solid roller) was 585rwtq (and 682rwhp) on a dynojet at Huck's. It's possible that torque could increase with the minor bump in compression and better cylinder filling but I'll be surprised if it gets over 600 since torque gains on naturally aspirated cars is so hard. I don't think it is out of the question to expect 30-50rwhp more than the previous combo, now with a ported Hi Ram, a larger 4.5" intake tube, a 108mm TB, stepped headers, 3.5" exhaust, lighter flywheel, compression bumped from 13.8:1 to 14:1, All Pro heads flowing 20-30 cfm more with a bigger/lighter intake valve, more stable valvetrain, and a cam with more lift and more lobe intensity. I've played with all the data in the software I have and the combo should pick up power nicely over the previous combo. Richard thinks 850 crank hp is about where he thinks the combo will settle at.
07-13-2018, 02:13 AM
#71
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I agree with that! I thought I would make way more than I did lol. I said it was an uneducated guess haha, I have no idea what it really would be. I know all of those additions will bring in a ton of air for that 454. Shoot, I am ready to be surprised even more! Richard will probably be right, since he has dealt with these heads for a while.
07-13-2018, 02:14 AM
#72
Drifting
.
07-13-2018, 02:15 AM
#73
beautiful setup 
07-13-2018, 07:52 AM
#74
Melting Slicks
It will be interesting to see how the drivabilty is on this. I agree with your assumptions on power increase. If your old number was 682 rwhp and 585 rwtq I think north of 720 on the rwhp is obtainable (assuming similar dyno) and the tq 600 is in the ball park. I agree with your assessment the tq increase is going to be a tougher target. It will also be interesting to see how this performs in the 3,000-5,000 rpm range and will you loose a lot of the low rend here or not. Good luck on the new build.
07-13-2018, 10:17 AM
#75
Killer build man, those heads are amazing. That is Nascar/cup level head flow, outperforming entry level SB2.2 stuff.
As for pushrods, Trend was awesome to work with with a quick turnaround of roughly 1 week for full custom PRs. My RPM will only be around 7500rpm, but my spring pressures are even higher and I have a long 8"+ PR so they recommended me the 3/8" .135 walled pieces. They are kid fingers lol! Based on the length of your valves and rocker mount height you may not need the heavy .135 wall so I would definitely call to talk to them - they are great to work with.
Somewhere between 800-850 crank horsepower will be a given. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to be closer to 875 flywheel.
As for pushrods, Trend was awesome to work with with a quick turnaround of roughly 1 week for full custom PRs. My RPM will only be around 7500rpm, but my spring pressures are even higher and I have a long 8"+ PR so they recommended me the 3/8" .135 walled pieces. They are kid fingers lol! Based on the length of your valves and rocker mount height you may not need the heavy .135 wall so I would definitely call to talk to them - they are great to work with.
Somewhere between 800-850 crank horsepower will be a given. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to be closer to 875 flywheel.
07-13-2018, 01:19 PM
#76
Team Owner
Killer build man, those heads are amazing. That is Nascar/cup level head flow, outperforming entry level SB2.2 stuff.
As for pushrods, Trend was awesome to work with with a quick turnaround of roughly 1 week for full custom PRs. My RPM will only be around 7500rpm, but my spring pressures are even higher and I have a long 8"+ PR so they recommended me the 3/8" .135 walled pieces. They are kid fingers lol! Based on the length of your valves and rocker mount height you may not need the heavy .135 wall so I would definitely call to talk to them - they are great to work with.
Somewhere between 800-850 crank horsepower will be a given. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to be closer to 875 flywheel.
As for pushrods, Trend was awesome to work with with a quick turnaround of roughly 1 week for full custom PRs. My RPM will only be around 7500rpm, but my spring pressures are even higher and I have a long 8"+ PR so they recommended me the 3/8" .135 walled pieces. They are kid fingers lol! Based on the length of your valves and rocker mount height you may not need the heavy .135 wall so I would definitely call to talk to them - they are great to work with.
Somewhere between 800-850 crank horsepower will be a given. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to be closer to 875 flywheel.
07-13-2018, 01:31 PM
#77
Team Owner
I'm running 3/8" .135 wall on intake and 7/16" .165 wall on exhaust side.
07-13-2018, 01:56 PM
#78
Team Owner
07-13-2018, 02:55 PM
#79
Team Owner
Ask race engine shop. I believe it is biggest that can fit. I didn't want to pay for clearaning for 9/16 rods so this is what fits in the holes.
07-13-2018, 04:49 PM
#80
Melting Slicks
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1) They were the largest that fit in the hole without additional clearancing and were designed this way (for larger exhaust side pushrods).
2) The exhaust side works much harder than the intake side. Without getting too deep in the weeds, the forces on the exhaust side, due to cylinder pressure that exists as the exhaust valve opens, are very high and that side of the system (exhaust) are under more stress. And when you add in the area of the exhaust valve, the pushrod on the exhaust side can become the weakest link (it will deflect/flex and/or compress before the intake side pushrod does). So often times builds call for stronger/thicker/stiffer pushrods on the exhaust side, which is experiencing higher forces. So this is likely why Mike. And is a smart move.
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HC Mechanic (08-16-2018)