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Wrapping (insulating) the starter to mitigate heat soak/hot start issues using DEI

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Wrapping (insulating) the starter to mitigate heat soak/hot start issues using DEI

 
Old 10-30-2018, 07:09 PM
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Default Wrapping (insulating) the starter to mitigate heat soak/hot start issues using DEI

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IMO we all need this or something to save the eventual demise of the starter from cat converter heat. Unless you have an Alaska plate it'll get cooked, mine was 10k miles. 2013 MY. My other thread(s) show starter replacement.

Hope this helps some guys/gals avoid doing the replacement like I had to.


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Old 10-31-2018, 10:42 PM
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2 different speed shops steered me away from wrapping the starter with this. Stated it also keeps heat in longer and bakes it. I was considering it as s preventive measure reading of failed starters. But never heard conclusively with testing the real cause. DEI also makes a cat shield which I used for a short time. I then went to ARH headers and really didn't like how close it was to the starter. Ultimately I wrapped the header as I wanted air to be able to move around the starter which I believed would dissipate more heat then a wrapped starter. I have a 2011 Zo6 w/ 24000 miles original starter, been doing several track events a year for 3 years. I'm on 8 years a lot of heat and original starter??? My concern is that once the starter gets hot this wrap will insulate it from dissipating that heat. Just my opinion and experience.
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Old 11-01-2018, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by seamus2154 View Post
2 different speed shops steered me away from wrapping the starter with this. Stated it also keeps heat in longer and bakes it. I was considering it as s preventive measure reading of failed starters. But never heard conclusively with testing the real cause. DEI also makes a cat shield which I used for a short time. I then went to ARH headers and really didn't like how close it was to the starter. Ultimately I wrapped the header as I wanted air to be able to move around the starter which I believed would dissipate more heat then a wrapped starter. I have a 2011 Zo6 w/ 24000 miles original starter, been doing several track events a year for 3 years. I'm on 8 years a lot of heat and original starter??? My concern is that once the starter gets hot this wrap will insulate it from dissipating that heat. Just my opinion and experience.
All automotive heat is dissipated in air. Other liquids may be a temporary medium, but the end result is the heat goes into the air. Wrapping things contains heat, just like gloves keep your hands warm. If you feel the need to protect the starter, place a non-conductive thermal shield between the heat source (headers) and leave space for airflow on each side. I'm at 154K miles and killed a solenoid, but not a starter.
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Old 11-01-2018, 01:24 AM
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Hi guys, the wrap is really not "tight" hard to describe but IMO about the same as putting a shield in. Time will tell, but 8k for a starter (mine) is not enough miles. I'd be good with a shield, but unless you have actually done it yourself, you don't know how hard/tight it is to work on it. The soft shield was cake compared to installing the hard ones I have seen, unless there is one that you do without removing the starter and I haven't seen yet. Pleas share.

IMO and I don't have an engineering lab to test, but the heating cooling cycle (that does the damage) starts at shutdown. Zero air is MOVING. Cat is 1600f and radiating, shield is blocking as both cool down. Follow me? So the soft shield is rejecting heat as they BOTH cool down. I don't see a wrap causing the starter to heat up or retain much. Like I said, no lab test, but just my logic.
It would be an easy test to try 4 or so brands/types but beyond my little garage.

Thanks for the posts.

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Old 11-01-2018, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by HOXXOH View Post
All automotive heat is dissipated in air. Other liquids may be a temporary medium, but the end result is the heat goes into the air. Wrapping things contains heat, just like gloves keep your hands warm. If you feel the need to protect the starter, place a non-conductive thermal shield between the heat source (headers) and leave space for airflow on each side. I'm at 154K miles and killed a solenoid, but not a starter.
I like your gloves comparison, but if I had, say, fireproof fireman's gloves (say that is the wrap) then not enough heat ever gets thru to cause an issue. Not to argue, I just like to think stuff out with my personal logic.

In any event if the wrap cooks the starter you will hear about it. But I doubt it. Look under the hood at all the lines that are tightly wrapped with silver heat rejection material. On my 2013 it's a lot. There are also metal shields, so some of both. My opinion is they both work. The soft one is easier to install.


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Old 11-01-2018, 10:06 AM
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Without being to into starters, would there be a way to remote mount the solenoid? I just had a 33 ford with a SBC in it, and it was running a remote ford starter solenoid with GM starter but the gm solenoid bypassed.. Made me think about this as my track z06 is a hope and a prayer after every track session to restart in impound.
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Old 11-01-2018, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by froggy47 View Post
Hi guys, the wrap is really not "tight" hard to describe but IMO about the same as putting a shield in. Time will tell, but 8k for a starter (mine) is not enough miles. I'd be good with a shield, but unless you have actually done it yourself, you don't know how hard/tight it is to work on it. The soft shield was cake compared to installing the hard ones I have seen, unless there is one that you do without removing the starter and I haven't seen yet. Pleas share.

IMO and I don't have an engineering lab to test, but the heating cooling cycle (that does the damage) starts at shutdown. Zero air is MOVING. Cat is 1600f and radiating, shield is blocking as both cool down. Follow me? So the soft shield is rejecting heat as they BOTH cool down. I don't see a wrap causing the starter to heat up or retain much. Like I said, no lab test, but just my logic.
It would be an easy test to try 4 or so brands/types but beyond my little garage.

Thanks for the posts.

I hear ya Froggy. If I lost a starter at 8K I would be along the line of a design flaw and how to correct it. I believe your solution may work but only to a point. It will prevent heat to a point, once it gets that starter hot it will hold more heat than normal. The "zero air" thought is not correct because once stopped we are talking about radiating heat which is leaving the starter. At that point you will be baking it in. Think of looking at a really hot blacktop roadway. You can see the heat radiating away. I wanted to keep the heat off the starter but still retain a way for it to dissipate heat soak once stopped. It will still come down to how hot it gets how often breaking down the starter. This might get you 20% better that gets you a lot further along. Without probe in that starter showing how hot it gets driving, when stopped, with a wrap and without, there is no way to really know what is causing the failure. But wrapping the headers or cat is definitely keeping less heat off the starter. Good luck
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Old 11-01-2018, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by froggy47 View Post
I like your gloves comparison, but if I had, say, fireproof fireman's gloves (say that is the wrap) then not enough heat ever gets thru to cause an issue. Not to argue, I just like to think stuff out with my personal logic.

In any event if the wrap cooks the starter you will hear about it. But I doubt it. Look under the hood at all the lines that are tightly wrapped with silver heat rejection material. On my 2013 it's a lot. There are also metal shields, so some of both. My opinion is they both work. The soft one is easier to install.

Agreed. Wrapped mine, no issues so far. The wrap can only keep heat in for heat that gets in. The starter itself shouldn't be generating any heat at all during driving so the idea of the wrap keeping in excess heat and baking the starter isn't really clicking for me. Time will tell though.
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Old 11-01-2018, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by UrbanKnight View Post
Without being to into starters, would there be a way to remote mount the solenoid? I just had a 33 ford with a SBC in it, and it was running a remote ford starter solenoid with GM starter but the gm solenoid bypassed.. Made me think about this as my track z06 is a hope and a prayer after every track session to restart in impound.

IMO makes more sense to have a known good starter & just insulate it whatever way you want, I like the one I did. Big test on Sat. as SCCA puts on an event for the boots at Camp Pendleton USMC. We want to teach the young guys to drive safe, have fun, keep it on the track. So LOTS of hot starts expected. Crosses fingers.


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Old 11-01-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by seamus2154 View Post
I hear ya Froggy. If I lost a starter at 8K I would be along the line of a design flaw and how to correct it. I believe your solution may work but only to a point. It will prevent heat to a point, once it gets that starter hot it will hold more heat than normal. The "zero air" thought is not correct because once stopped we are talking about radiating heat which is leaving the starter. At that point you will be baking it in. Think of looking at a really hot blacktop roadway. You can see the heat radiating away. I wanted to keep the heat off the starter but still retain a way for it to dissipate heat soak once stopped. It will still come down to how hot it gets how often breaking down the starter. This might get you 20% better that gets you a lot further along. Without probe in that starter showing how hot it gets driving, when stopped, with a wrap and without, there is no way to really know what is causing the failure. But wrapping the headers or cat is definitely keeping less heat off the starter. Good luck
My bad for not fully explaining, it was in my other videos. I have covered the Cat and Pipe near the starter (Not the headers up where they attach as that is pretty far away.). So the big picture is there is going to be less heat off the cat anyway to heat up the starter, less heat "injected" into the starter, and there IS plenty of space around most of the starter for air. If you have time watch my last 2-3 videos they are all consolidated in one place. I think it's a pretty comprehensive solution, not just a "bandaid". If you watch them all I'd like to get your opinion. Thanks.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:01 PM
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Hopefully a wrap resolves your issue, but based on the pile of other posts on this forum and elsewhere on this topic, I don't think it's a permanent fix. Faulty starters are usually due to bad solenoids, bad wiring, loose wiring, bad battery, etc. If this was a common issue, everyone would be complaining because 99% of Z06 owners don't have wraps on their starters. Furthermore, most of us have swapped out the manifolds for headers, and I'm guessing the radiating heat from uncoated headers is at least as high if not much higher than the manifolds (stainless steel vs. cast iron). I've personally not had any issues with my OEM starter and Kooks headers. It did have a slow hot crank issue that I was troubleshooting (always started, just a little slower when hot), and for me the fix was getting a battery with a high PCHA (pulse cranking hot amperage) rating. I got an Odyssey 1200 and my Z cranks over great all the time now.

If I do start having issues I will first look at the wiring, tighten everything up, and then wrap the hell out of those wires, versus wrapping the entire starter.

Good luck!
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:45 PM
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Just get this starter, it clocks away from the headers, and then bypass the charge loop on the alternator across to the battery, then run a separate cable down to the starter.

MSD 5096 GM LS1-LS7 DynaForce Gear Reduction Starter

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/MSD-5096-GM-LS1-LS7-DynaForce-Gear-Reduction-Starter,9612.html
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Old 11-02-2018, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
Just get this starter, it clocks away from the headers, and then bypass the charge loop on the alternator across to the battery, then run a separate cable down to the starter.MSD 5096 GM LS1-LS7 DynaForce Gear Reduction Starter

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/MSD-5...rter,9612.html
Hi,

There is no room to clock the starter any direction. It barely fits. I read the comments on the sellers site, more than one said does not fit c6z, but thanks, all info is useful.


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Old 11-02-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by silvrhand View Post
Just get this starter, it clocks away from the headers, and then bypass the charge loop on the alternator across to the battery, then run a separate cable down to the starter.

MSD 5096 GM LS1-LS7 DynaForce Gear Reduction Starter

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/MSD-5096-GM-LS1-LS7-DynaForce-Gear-Reduction-Starter,9612.html
Originally Posted by froggy47 View Post
Hi,

There is no room to clock the starter any direction. It barely fits. I read the comments on the sellers site, more than one said does not fit c6z, but thanks, all info is useful.

I have this starter and wrapped it with the DEI cover. It barely fits with my Kooks 1 7/8" headers. I read where it does not fit with others. If it is holding heat, hopefully it is holding heat at a temperature that does no harm and averages out or rejects some of the high temperature spikes. I guess time will tell.
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Old 11-02-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MickVette View Post
I have this starter and wrapped it with the DEI cover. It barely fits with my Kooks 1 7/8" headers. I read where it does not fit with others. If it is holding heat, hopefully it is holding heat at a temperature that does no harm and averages out or rejects some of the high temperature spikes. I guess time will tell.
Thanks, some confusion here, to be CLEAR I am talking about c6z with STOCK CAT in position, there is NO ROOM. Hope that helps, thanks all.
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Old 11-02-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by froggy47 View Post
Thanks, some confusion here, to be CLEAR I am talking about c6z with STOCK CAT in position, there is NO ROOM. Hope that helps, thanks all.
I'm agreeing with you. I don't think I could have clocked the starter with headers and no cats in the way. That thing is big.
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Old 11-02-2018, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MickVette View Post
I'm agreeing with you. I don't think I could have clocked the starter with headers and no cats in the way. That thing is big.
Got it, I was mostly replying to all on the thread, not your post specifically, really appreciate you getting into the conversation.

Can I ask a not related question? The stock exhaust manifold, to me, looks like an aftermarket header. I would not replace it except to get rid of the cat (which I can't in Kali). Did you do it just to lose the cat?

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Old 11-02-2018, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by froggy47 View Post
Got it, I was mostly replying to all on the thread, not your post specifically, really appreciate you getting into the conversation.

Can I ask a not related question? The stock exhaust manifold, to me, looks like an aftermarket header. I would not replace it except to get rid of the cat (which I can't in Kali). Did you do it just to lose the cat?

I bought the car used with the HCIE already done. Mine is a 2009 so only two cats. I did install an OR X pipe, ported the MSD intake, built a true forced air intake and tuned, tuned, tuned for 1/2 mile racing. I have one X pipe with cats and one without that I can swap back and fourth since driving on the street without cats puts out a lot of fumes and gives my GF a headache. Hopefully someone will chime in that can better answer your question.
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Old 11-02-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MickVette View Post
I bought the car used with the HCIE already done. Mine is a 2009 so only two cats. I did install an OR X pipe, ported the MSD intake, built a true forced air intake and tuned, tuned, tuned for 1/2 mile racing. I have one X pipe with cats and one without that I can swap back and fourth since driving on the street without cats puts out a lot of fumes and gives my GF a headache. Hopefully someone will chime in that can better answer your question.
How often do you swap the pipes?

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Old 11-02-2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by froggy47 View Post
How often do you swap the pipes?

So far once. The next time will be when I get the B&B fusions and weld a flange on the muffler sides of the X pipes and new exhaust. Similar like I did when I built my truck exhaust.

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