I went to the link, checked the current price listed on their website. I didn't pull the price out of a hat.

 

The 'Two Guys Garage' show has aired showcasing the blue STS equipped vert. Its sounds like an F1 car. It rips!

 

I saw that episode...pretty . Except they kept calling it a Z06 .

 

What perm mods are you referring to? As far as I know the APS twin turbo system can be easily removed returning the Corvette to bone stock condition as there's no cutting or modification to any original parts.

Peter

 

I have not seen STS instuctions yet but they claim no modifications!

Taken from the APS Install man:

Cut the stock metal clutch line 1/2" from the flexible line crimping as shown and remove the flexible portion of stock clutch line.

Remove the stock oil pan retaining bolt directly under casting boss.

Using a 90 degree angle drive as shown and after heavily greasing each drill bit,

Drill:

1st: A 1/8” hole
2nd: A ¼” hole
3rd: A 3/8” hole
4th ½” hole, HOWEVER, THIS LAST ONE ONLY ¾” deep”!!

Cut and remove stock round section bar from radiator support cradle on LHS and RHS of vehicle.

Trim LH and RH inner fenders to clear intercooler entry hoses

 

That must make it better...........LOL.
You would hardly worry about that, it's just a clutch line, easy to replce.

To Return the turbocharger lubricating oil to the oil pan, no biggie and can be easily plugged off with a screw in plug if returning to NA condition.

A very easy part to replace if required as it's a straight bolt on part, in reality the part does not need to be replaced if returning to stock.

Trim a small amount of plastic from the inner fender liners, again a simple bolt on part to replace if you're really that pedantic.

Glad to see that you read the install instructions.

Peter

 

My hunch is some people care about the "permanent" modifications in case the engine goes boom and they want to revert to stock for a warranty claim. The Drilling into the pan part would be irreversable and any cutting . The STS kit cuts the inner fenders so it is not without modifications either!

Oh, and when are the kits shipping to the US??

 

If some guys are that worried about the engine going ''boom'' then they should not be modding the engine in the first place (then tyring to claim warranty imho), be it with NA mods or with a FI system. That said, if you keep the boost to a sensible limit and tune the engine safely on 93 octane (or 91 octane with water/methanol injection) then the engine should be safe for many miles given normal maintenance and servicing.

If all goes to plan twin turbo systems will start shiping in approx 2 weeks time.

Peter

 

IMO, $8,500 for the STS kit would be highway robbery, plain and simple.

I have priced out a very similar intercooled rear-mount setup for my car, and the TOTAL parts bill, including IC (standard Spearco nit, just like STS GTO kit), both turbos, piping, KB boost a pump, injectors, and a 100% remote oiling system using Mocal cooler, pump, timer and hoses, is $3,200. And this is with me paying retail for everything.

I know, research costs yada yada yada, but $5K profit on each kit? Come ON. $6,500 installed would be a fair price for that kit.

IMO. APS kit, though also crazy expensive, is a much nicer setup for only $500 more. At least they give you ballbearing turbos and stealth install, plus if you roll the car it looks pretty.

 

I Can't Understand Why Anybody Would Have A Problem With The Pricing Of The Sts System And Have No Proglem With The $10,000 Price Of The Aps Turbo. I Own A Company That Is Selling To Customer That Are Road Raceing Their Corvettes. Both The Procharger And Aps Systems For Road Racing Applications Adds To Much Waight To The Front Of The Car Along With Serious Heat Issues. The Sts System Has Reduced Both Problems And At 8500 Retail Is A Bargan.

John Warren

 

Well I for one, am totally unbiased. Unlike some

I find both systems to be too expensive for different reasons, and so are most blower setups. As a result, I am building my own DIY system. The proof they are overpriced is that very similar systems for "lesser" cars with the same engine (GTO and FBody) sell for thousands less ($5K to be exact, which is where my figure came from). This is what happens when vendors get greedy. I am sick of paying the Vette premium and I am sick of seeing it again and again. So I am making the facts public.

The fact is that the STS parts cost about $3,200 MAX and my personal estimate includes me spending $500 on a separate oiling system that the STS kit does not have, and it reflects retail pricing. I was shocked to say the least. I have provided people on here with the factual info and they can do the math versus the retail price and see if they want to finance this type of profit margin. At least they have all the facts.

The fact also is that the APS system has at least $3,200 more content ($800 for new manifolds, $2,000 for the BB turbos, and $500 for the extra IC) by my estimate. This does not include probably $500 or more in the fabricated and polished pipes. Whether this extra cost is necessary is a matter of debate, but the added content cannot be denied. I happen to thing the system is overkill for a stock bottom end and therefore also not worth my money. But the facts are that the cost of this kit is at least $6,400 and that's probably about $400 shy.

Your claim of added weight with the APS system is much ado about nothing. The system adds MAYBE 60lb to the car, of which 50lb is well back under the center of the car. If that 50lb is a concern, move the battery to the rear.

Also, while we're being brutally frank, let me say that the APS claim of "diesel grade" turbos (alluding to the GT3571 and other journal turbos) is BS. I checked with the head Garrett technician as well as two race shops. The answer, direct from the mfr., is that the journal bearings are not as responsive and may not last as long only because they are not water cooled, but that these will still have 100K service life either way. So you trade less complexity (no water cooling) for some performance.

There you have it, the facts. Not pretty, by at least accurate.

 

Not wanting to be arguementative though I believe that some of the above is technically incorrect.

All TRUE Garrett gasoline based turbochargers have at least 3 signigficant differences to diesel turbochargers,

1) Liquid cooled bearing housings as you stated in your post

2) Inconel 713C turbine wheel (as apposed GMR 235 material in the diesel turbine wheel).

3) D5S (Niresist) minimum 36 % Nickel turbine housing ( as apposed to high Silicone ductile iron in the diesel grade turbine housing.)

As a general rule this can add up to 50% to the cost of the Gasoline turbocharger as apposed to a diesel turbocharger. I'm not aware of a Garrett gasoline OEM turbo application in the last 15 years which has not used all of the above features.

Added to the above I'm told by a very reliable source at Honeywell (A Garrett engineer who works exclusively with gasoline performance turbgochargers) that all gasoline turbochargers in forward production will incorporqate dual ball bearing design cartridges within the nest 12 to 24 months.

Of course it's possible to use less expensive diesel grade turbochargers on gasoline engines in the aftermarket though it's interesting to note that no OEM turbo engine manufacturer actually does so. Maybe the OEM's actually know how long diesel spec turbochargers live for in Gasoline engine turbo applications!

Peter

 

Sorry, double post.

 

Just to clarify, the current APS MSRP for the intercooled twin turbo system is $8995 not $10,000.

I Find you comment regarding engine temperature and weight distribution very interseting.

1) Serious heat issues. I'm not sure what you're referring (and how you could possibly know enough to make such an absolute statement without testing the APS twin turbo system) however I can assure you that APS's intercooler system has been thoroughly engineered to ensure maximum air flow to the engine radiator and engine compartment. In short, the APS intercooling approach is quite different to both procharger and STS.

2) Weight distribution. The weight of the APS twin turbo system (relative to the STS system) is actually centrally located and mounted down low between the wheel base and will have less effect on car handling than adding extra mass behind the rear axle imo.

Peter

 

I would not take ANY front mount TT setup road racing unless it was Mercedes or a Subaru or a Mitso. Which I believe APS does upgrade kits for the later two.

SuperZ has taken a built LPE TT car road racing.
In fifteen minutes, it heat soaked, ran hot and lost significant power.
He runs a Magnussen at the road course and is switching to the KB..

Someone else I know experienced the same with their LPE TT setup.

The STS weight in back actually helped my weight bias, which I have done to pound for every corner of the car. Also the weight the exhaust has been taken out completely out the equation.

As for heat. My fans do not even turn on at idle.

Granted I do know group of guys that do have the, "Cancer Research Car," and are running ONE LAP in Corvette with an LPE TT. The car is fully built to the hilt.

Irregardless, I think the APS kit is fantastic turbo setup.
I just have to buy another vehicle to put it on.

 

I agree that the parts costs are low. And how much can the fabricated parts cost anyway. These kits seem overpriced by $1500-$2000. If the price were at the $6500 level the demand would increase dramatically I would think.

 

Actually I think both kits provide great value.

The one guys is off by a lot on STS intercooler, turbo's, pipes, complete wiring harness. The STS dual kit has another turbo and more piping, etc.

Both companies profit margin, I would say is very reasonable.
These guys deserve to make a living.

If you want to use your time in R&D.
I would say go for it.
I know for a fact (I can site many examples), that you will be out a lot more time in the end, that your project took a lot more money and that your car will have a lot of down time. Even with the, "plug and play," kits it requires a lot good effort in the end. All you have to do is talk to the Corvette TT owners and they will all tell you that.

Some people do get a lot of enjoyment out of doing their own thing though. I say do what pleases you. I have been there, done that on other builds and more than once.

 

Excerpt from my project thread in March:
--------------
The good news is I have a fabricator who, after looking under the car and poking around for 1 hour, says he can do the piping for $600 or less. I asked if he would agree to $300 up front and $300 on completion, MAX, and he said "yes" and that the second installment would likely be even less. This is in aluminized, of course. I have seen his handiwork around the shop and his welds are excellent. He does mostly SuperVee and desert racing frames, so he knows his stuff, and is highly regarded by the desert racing crowd.
---------------
That was not included in my $3,200 total cost estimate. As you can see from this excerpt:
---------------
I may wind up using twin GT3271's anyway. They package better and are operating in a better part of the compressor map when combined. Besides, I found one retailer selling them for $675 apiece! The other neat thing is they accomodate an integral wastegate ($100 more each). So even though using two, I am under the cost of a GT42.

I am actually very pleased with the prices I am finding for parts. $500 for the IC (from Racerwholesale - looks like same one STS uses for the GTO), $250 for a BOV, $500 for my remote oiler (Mocal pump, fittings, and exchanger core), and $250 for a Kenne Bell Boost-a-Pump.
---------------
That's $3,050 for the mechanical stuff, retail, plus $600 for piping, and $1,000 for dyno/tune= $4,650 total installed cost.

Which puts me back at $5K as a faor price plus $1,500 for the install / tuning, or $6,500 total. And I agree they would be flying off shelves at that price. As compared to Zero kits at the $10,000 price level. Apparently this mfr. does not realize that it is better to sell 2 kits with a $1,400 profit margin than Zero kits with a theoretical $5,000 profit margin. Which means they don't understand their market.

In general, there seems to be some flawed perception among tuners that owners of expensive vehicles are more willing to pay big $$$ for mods. In fact, the reverse is true. First, we already spent our $$ on the car, so there is less left for mods, (2) we are lesslikely to mess up our nice rides, and (3) most of us are in business and know how to assess value and cost things out. When we see the same turbo or S/C kit for a LS-engined Camaro priced at less than $5K versus $8.5K to Corvettes, that really pisses us off.

If you want to attract flies, you need honey, not vinegar.

 

well said. You pay MSRP on parts because of the R&D the developer spent to bring the product to you.

LG headers for C5's: 1800+ with cats, 1500 or so without...
there might be a couple hundred in material costs...

Still, WELL worth it when you're looking for the absolute best. Then again, if you own the jigs, a TIG, piping, coating, flanges, collectors, etc... build it yourself

Hell, you can buy a stock of aluminum and mill your own HEAD for all I care... but I'd rather have someone else do the hard work

 

If you are referring to me, check out my last post and you will see I am DEAD ACCURATE in my pricing for parts. My project IS using 2 turbos in a rear-mount application. So all costs are factored in, including a remote oiling system which imposes an extra $400 in costs not applicable to the STS kit.

Also, I disgaree with your comments on location and heat. The LPE overheat issue has nothing to do with location, and everything to do with inadequate cooling, which is the most common area of weakness on all FI systems and, for that matter, any power adders. Any time you cram more fuel and air into a motor, be it from better breathing, more displacement, or FI, you add heat. Turbos themselves do not add heat. In fact, quite the reverse, since they use thermal energy to power the compressor. But they will produce more HP and thus, strain the cooling system.

The track exposes all weaknesses, but it exposes poor cooling first. I have seen MTI 427 engined C5s overheat within one 20mn session because the owner did not sufficiently upgrade the cooling system. By contrast, my two FD3S (third-gen) RX-7s, both of which were twin-turbo, high-boost motors with 2,000F + EGTs from the rotary exhaust, could be hammered all day at the track with zero issues. That's because Mazda engineered the cooling system properly to account for the HP. At least LPE is considering track performance.

Also, you cannot compare LPE to the APS / STS kits, because LPE is a max effort, 1000HP system. That is 2.5x more heat than a stock motor and problems will of course arise. The fact is that if the APS and STS kit are operating at the same boost, the APS kit will not introduce any more heat into the engine than the STS one.

I have nothing against the STS setup: rear mount is clever and I'll be using it myself.

And if a retailer has the common sense in the meantime to offer the STS kit at $5K introductory pricing, or better yet $6.5K installed and tuned, I promise here and now that I'll be the first one to place a cash order.